AMD's Richard Huddy on the state of PC graphics, Mantle 2 and APUs

[Gikaseixas]

I wonder how your facts go together with these facts.

Scali is well known in this forum. He's a AMD hater and has been banned for a reason.
Check that fact before giving his blog any hits

 

[Creig]

I wonder how your facts go together with these facts.

I wonder if he's the same scali who is a banned former member of the Anandtech forums. He was EXTREMELY pro-nvidia. If you're taking Roy Taylor's words with a grain of salt, you should take scali's with an entire truckload.

 

[Gikaseixas]

I wonder if he's the same scali who is a banned former member of the Anandtech forums. He was EXTREMELY pro-nvidia. If you're taking Roy Taylor's words with a grain of salt, you should take scali's with an entire truckload.

Yes it is the same guy LOL

 

[PPB]

I wonder how your facts go together with these facts.

You know the discussion at hand went bananas when people start posting content inside random blogs as irrefutable facts.


Anandtech, the only forum where the product to be launched in two years is believed to be conceived prior to the one that is actually shipping inside some games. Comedy material right there LOL.


Bu...but some PR told me MS and NV were talking (emphasis on this word) about DX11's sucessor since 4 years ago, it must be the absolute truth!!!

And this is the people that then go post into any of the Huddy's threads about how he is a clown and a spindoctor, while they love to believe any BS MS and NV's PR can throw at them.

 

[witeken]

Did anyone actually read it?

 

[PPB]

Yes, his speculation is based almost entirely in either PR slides or descontextualized quotes.

The BS is strong on that blog.

PD: I know you also believe every Intel slide out there, but let the more critic people on this forum take that blog with the truckload of salt the other forum poster suggested.

 

[DeathReborn]

You know the discussion at hand went bananas when people start posting content inside random blogs as irrefutable facts.


Anandtech, the only forum where the product to be launched in two years is believed to be conceived prior to the one that is actually shipping inside some games. Comedy material right there LOL.


Bu...but some PR told me MS and NV were talking (emphasis on this word) about DX11's sucessor since 4 years ago, it must be the absolute truth!!!

And this is the people that then go post into any of the Huddy's threads about how he is a clown and a spindoctor, while they love to believe any BS MS and NV's PR can throw at them.

Microsoft actually start the very first part of API development within days of the last one coming out, they spend months or years throwing around ideas, building plans, throwing them out and starting again. Do I know for sure they started DX12 before Mantle was even heard of, no but I would be willing to bet my house and everything on it.

Huddy has been found to have lied, AMD have been found to have lied, Microsoft have been found to have lied... the only truth is you can't really trust any of them yet some hear Huddy/Scali/Whoever and it's like manna from god. Personally I hear "Gaming Scientist" and I just think PR guy.

Mantle was touted as open and with every interview or press release it's becoming less and less open. Will Mantle 1 games work in Mantle 2 or will it be only for new games & so on, these are the sort of things they need to answer now they've started talking about them. Perhaps if Nvidia brings back Glide in a form similar to Mantle all the people promoting Mantle will praise it even if AMD Hardware can't run it (yet?).

Thread will probably get locked soon as every time a Mantle/PhysX/Gameworks topic comes up it descends into another mud slinging contest that nobody wins & everybody loses.

 

[PPB]

That is my point, if you trust one side's PR, you trust both of them. I personally choose to trust neither, while I keep playing BF4 using Mantle and enjoying the much touted DX12 optimizations that are coming only in ++1.5 years

 

[Creig]

I'm curious to see how much of a performance gain Mantle will hold over DX12 compared to its current lead over DX11 (if any). Was Microsoft able to incorporate the majority of CPU bottleneck removal code into DX12? Or will GCN/Mantle still hold a worthwhile advantage?

I was also surprised at his announcement that Mantle will move beyond the PC. Which platforms would he be referring to?

 

[BrightCandle]

Nvidia has claimed they have been working with Microsoft on DX12 for years, literally since DX11. But there is every chance Mantle changed the plans of how the API would look, because DX12 is going to be a big change compared to the predecessors.

Mantle has moved the industry on, that is great news. Its not necessarily great news that the API overhead has become such an issue, that is a problem with CPUs that I feel isn't going to be addressed, so we will hit this problem again in 3-4 generations time and without more CPU performance it isn't going to get fixed at that point easily.

 

[Spjut]

AMD's spin doctor spewing garbage again..

This guy makes it seem as though AMD's Mantle initiative is responsible for DX12, and that DX12 is a rip off of Mantle.....when just last year AMD was saying there wasn't going to be a DX12..

What nonsense. DX12 is backwards compatible with DX11 and runs on multiple architectures, the exact opposite of GCN. Microsoft has been working on DX12 for years, just like AMD had been working on Mantle..

People should take this guy's word with a healthy dose of salt.

I don't see why people get so hung up about AMD's old claim about no DX12.
AMD didn't have any reason to talk about DX12 so many years in advance, there was a risk that it would impact the sales of their current products.

And who knows how "real" DX12 even was back then. We need to know at which point AMD, Nvidia, Intel and Microsoft stopped sitting around the coffee table, and the actual work on DX12 began.

Regarding backwards compatibility, it seems like DX12 won't be supported on the HD 5000/6000 series.

 

[stahlhart]

Thread will probably get locked soon as every time a Mantle/PhysX/Gameworks topic comes up it descends into another mud slinging contest that nobody wins & everybody loses.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=60552

See this? All of you agreed to follow it when you created an account to post here. Do so, and threads won't get locked.

-- stahlhart

 

[Carfax83]

Regarding backwards compatibility, it seems like DX12 won't be supported on the HD 5000/6000 series.

And is that AMD's fault or Microsoft's? Likely AMD's if I had to wager.

They don't want to make DX12 drivers for the HD 5000/6000's VLIW based architecture as it's radically different from GCN..

 

[Mand]

And is that AMD's fault or Microsoft's? Likely AMD's if I had to wager.

They don't want to make DX12 drivers for the HD 5000/6000's VLIW based architecture as it's radically different from GCN..

You mean my five-year-old 5870 won't be able to utilize next year's graphics API?

UNCONSCIONABLE

 

[Reaper_Tech]

In the end if we get better looking better optimized games we all win right?

 

[3DVagabond]

It's rather a realistic way of seeing things. It would be idiotic not to capitalize on the possibilities that Mantle brings for AMD. They want one thing like every other company: our money.
Welcome the new 3dfx. If Mantle continues alongside DX as a proprietary API, I hope it dies. If it were to open up for all IHVs, then I would want it to survive and flourish. It's as simple as that.

Now I know that you are smart enough to realize that in order for Mantle to be as good as it can be it can't be designed for all architectures, nor can it be designed by committee.

The rest of your comment are your feelings and beliefs and down to you personally.

 

[BrightCandle]

In the end if we get better looking better optimized games we all win right?

Well we don't all win. Users of slightly older AMD cards don't win because they wont be able to play the games at all because AMD has made the business decision to not support them in Mantle or DX12, despite the cards having sufficient features to work with it.

AMD users also potentially loose out on DX11/12 performance while AMD focusses on Mantle. We already have some evidence to suggest their software team is being split too many ways and they just don't have the resources to make it all work. Its bad for the customers if DX11/12 is broken or poor performance in some way while AMD focusses on a small minority of games that go with Mantle.

The industry looses out as it develops software for yet more APIs. The development effort might be considered low but its not nothing and its going to have an impact and may lead to devs having less time for the other APIs.

Its not a universally good thing, the progress comes with some downsides as well. Our main hope is that we will see most of the positives in terms of performance, and none of the downsides like extra bugs and performance problems in games that aren't supporting it. When one party moves in its own way, whether AMD or Nvidia some of us gain and others potentially loose out. Options make games more expensive to develop, and the list of special features that games are being asked to provide for on PC is meaning a lot of games don't come with those options, there are just too many special things.

 

[Reaper_Tech]

I guess its a good thing I run NVIDIA. I did run AMD for awhile but the frame drops / runt frames made me switch. But considering I upgrade with each GPU cycle just for kicks Ill have to keep making informed purchasing decisions. I figure if the Next Total War game uses mantle or DX12 and offers proper multi-threading I will be a happy gamer.

 

[Carfax83]

You mean my five-year-old 5870 won't be able to utilize next year's graphics API?

UNCONSCIONABLE

Well if it's any consolation, the five year old Fermi cards will be able to run DX12

 

[3DVagabond]

You can call it cynical if you want, but the only reason any of these companies develop software tech is to get a competitive edge in selling their cards. You can point to altruism about "pushing the technology for gaming" all you want, but in the end they're doing it so that they can sell us the new shiny.

I have no problems with AMD doing this, by the way. It's entirely reasonable. I just wish they wouldn't carp on and on about how much better they are than everyone else because they're being open, when they're doing nothing of the kind. They have structured Mantle so that it will be impossible for others to get benefit out of it - because AMD will be the one controlling it, and nobody in their right mind would put all their eggs in a competitor's basket.

Please share with us your knowledge of Mantle. Specifically the parts of it that are structured to make it impossible for others to get a benefit out of it. That, or stop spreading FUD.

They have designed Mantle to take advantage of GCN. Not all companies run around spending time and money trying to screw over and lock out the competition. They are willing to let anyone else use it. We'll see after it becomes publicly and freely available how impossible it is for others to benefit from it.

Taking advantage of Mantle will require nothing more than writing a driver. That's it. It won't require you to give up on anything else. You won't have to sign your sole over to the devil, abandon your beliefs, or anything else. You definitely do not have to "put all of your eggs in a competitor's basket". Again, this is simply FUD.

For example if it turns out that Intel can see a 10% improvement in the performance of their hardware by writing a Mantle driver, we'll see if they will. If it means they can spend less time (possibly no time) optimizing for games that incorporate it? If it can improve their customers experience? Or will they sit there and let that go by because it's a competitor's API?

 

[blackened23]

I think Intel actually wanted to call AMD out on their bluff, as intel referred to it as an "experiment" and stated they will remain commited to DirectX. So AMD is saying that Mantle is available for everyone, so long as you use THEIR gcn architecture. Hell not even all AMD prior gen cards can use Mantle. But here we are to believe that intel and nvidia are going to license GCN to use an API completely in AMD's control. Yeah. Right. Conflict of interest, API in AMD's control, intel and NV are going to use AMD's GCN architecture. YEAH. License GCN. That is completely eyeroll worthy. Okay.

I gotta hand it to AMD. Their hilarious "good guy" marketing which is being pushed around via social media is pretty over the top, but it hasn't gained them market share. They personify intel and nvidia as big, bad, greedy, and evil corporations, a lot of good that has done them when their sales remain flat/stagnant for both CPUs and GPUs and still losing to intel and NV. But of course AMD is out to save mankind with Mantle and they will share it with everyone. So long as you use GCN. I just cannot get over how stupid it sounds that AMD is pretending that companies are going to license GCN and use an API in 3rd party control when DX12 is coming. Give me a break.

An AMD rep (I saw this in a PCPer podcast a while back) actually informed PCPer that Mantle would never be open , due to DX12 being in development. Now they're backtracking again. Now Huddy states that Mantle is open. If you use their GCN. If you use their API. I cannot roll my eyes enough. How many times will they backtrack to keep up the fake good guy image, when they just want your money like all other companies.
Also it should be noted that intel, in a press release , asked AMD about Mantle as an "experiment".

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/38631...ccess-to-mantle-for-an-experiment-/index.html

Pretty funny move by intel, hats off to them Pretty sure they wanted to call AMD out on their bluff, but for the time being AMD can hide behind the "oh but it's beta!" disclaimer.

 

[rgallant]

I guess its a good thing I run NVIDIA. I did run AMD for awhile but the frame drops / runt frames made me switch. But considering I upgrade with each GPU cycle just for kicks Ill have to keep making informed purchasing decisions. I figure if the Next Total War game uses mantle or DX12 and offers proper multi-threading I will be a happy gamer.

I think it could take 2-3 years to see a dx 12 game. [many gpu cycles]
well after free sync monitors are ready and some games will have mantle available now , IMO

 

[3DVagabond]

Aber es wird kein DirectX 12 kommen. Das war's. Soweit wir wissen gibt es keine Pläne für DirectX 12. Falls das nicht stimmen sollte und mich jemand korrigieren möchte – wunderbar.

DirectX 12 will not come. So far as we know there are no plans for DX 12. In case this is not true and someone wants to correct me - great.

So, either AMD lied or they didn't know that DX 12 was in development.

And AMD working on DX 12 is BS? They have done in the past.

Of course they would have to be involved. All of the IHV's would have to be, just like they are now with DX12. How else would Msft. know what hardware features the IHV's will need? To the haters (not you) the only answer is AMD lied. That's all they claim non stop. The other possibility though is that before Mantle there was no DX12 plans. If we look at the timeline, when AMD showed Mantle they said they had been working on it for ~2 years. When Msft announced DX12 they said it will be ready in ~2 years. Coincidence?

 

[USER8000]

Scali is well known in this forum. He's a AMD hater and has been banned for a reason.
Check that fact before giving his blog any hits

Not only this forum AFAIK, he was actually banned on more than one forum IIRC.

 

[3DVagabond]

I wonder how your facts go together with these facts.

AMD said they had been sharing their work on Mantle with Msft all along. This article ignores that fact.