Hybrid CF only works with a HD3450/ HD3470 card, which isn't nearly enough to match a discrete HD3650, its not even close. You'll get between a third to half the performance, thats about it.
Hybrid CF only works with a HD3450/ HD3470 card, which isn't nearly enough to match a discrete HD3650, its not even close. You'll get between a third to half the performance, thats about it.
Sylvanas
Diamond Member
- Jan 20, 2004
- 3,752
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- 0
I wasn't aware of that. However it still stands to reason that a cheaper IGP solution will be more than enough for the tasks the product and market segment its aimed at- e.g. HTPC- buying a discrete card defeats the purpose of going for an IGP setup in the first place.
Cookie Monster
Diamond Member
- May 7, 2005
- 5,161
- 32
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Ok, lets see.
The 780G (ECS) as a motherboard (ignoring its IGP capabilities) is miles ahead of the 945G (ECS).
-Intel ICH7 vs SB700.
-2GB DDR2 667 max vs 32GB DDR 800/1066 max.
-6 channels (IDT 92HD202) vs 8 channels (IDT 92HD206)
-4 USB ports vs 6 USB ports + 1 esata port + 1 x Header for S/PDIF Out.
Not to mention the power circuitry and its limited ram support makes OCing pretty horrid on the 945G chipset. Factor in the fact that E2xx0 series has less cache which also has quite abit if impact on its performance especially in gaming.
Now what would you pick? if you pick the intel setup, you sure wont have a GPU bottleneck, but other parts of the system could surely influence the final outcome whereas the AMD setup is much more balanced if not overall better.
The fact is, we all use to think IGP was horrible because intel normally dominated this part of the market. But now things have changed dramatically from the days of the past where with the whole integration of "GPU into CPU" buzz booming in the industry, people are starting to see just how horrid intel IGPs are.
FS review on the 780G gaming performance
Now tell me seeing a IGP playing HL2 at 40~ FPS on 10x7 not impressive (HL2 is a good example since lots of gamers play CS). Yet even as of today intel's IGP struggles to play ANY game at any settings and res.
Harpoon64 your argument is basically that intel is superior when the buyer is looking for pure gpu performance over everything else. But thats because you suggested all sorts of cheap low end parts, throw in a gpu thats clearly the most expensive (with rebate, but it really should be without one) and called it a day. You can do the same with AMD.
What we have here with the 780G and possible MCP78 is that most average cosumers can go out there and buy something decent. That provides alot of features, great video playback experience, and abit of casual gaming without having to shell more $$ on discrete video cards, or skimp on parts of the system to get something "acceptable".
People seem to think some how low end intel chips, and even undervolted should be more than enough against athlon X2s. Firstly, they are at stock. Secondly they aren't OCed to 3GHz+. Im not sure if this is pure blindness but from what i can tell X2s are overall faster (stock) than the E2x00 and they are neck to neck with CPU power consumption (especially the enery efficent 4450/4850e chips). And since when did 45nm intel chips come into equation? the only 45nm considered low end is the E7200, and thats well over $100.
I can refer back to the AT article regarding video playback. Even a core 2 duo stumbles.
Link
The 780G (ECS) as a motherboard (ignoring its IGP capabilities) is miles ahead of the 945G (ECS).
-Intel ICH7 vs SB700.
-2GB DDR2 667 max vs 32GB DDR 800/1066 max.
-6 channels (IDT 92HD202) vs 8 channels (IDT 92HD206)
-4 USB ports vs 6 USB ports + 1 esata port + 1 x Header for S/PDIF Out.
Not to mention the power circuitry and its limited ram support makes OCing pretty horrid on the 945G chipset. Factor in the fact that E2xx0 series has less cache which also has quite abit if impact on its performance especially in gaming.
Now what would you pick? if you pick the intel setup, you sure wont have a GPU bottleneck, but other parts of the system could surely influence the final outcome whereas the AMD setup is much more balanced if not overall better.
The fact is, we all use to think IGP was horrible because intel normally dominated this part of the market. But now things have changed dramatically from the days of the past where with the whole integration of "GPU into CPU" buzz booming in the industry, people are starting to see just how horrid intel IGPs are.
FS review on the 780G gaming performance
Now tell me seeing a IGP playing HL2 at 40~ FPS on 10x7 not impressive (HL2 is a good example since lots of gamers play CS). Yet even as of today intel's IGP struggles to play ANY game at any settings and res.
Harpoon64 your argument is basically that intel is superior when the buyer is looking for pure gpu performance over everything else. But thats because you suggested all sorts of cheap low end parts, throw in a gpu thats clearly the most expensive (with rebate, but it really should be without one) and called it a day. You can do the same with AMD.
What we have here with the 780G and possible MCP78 is that most average cosumers can go out there and buy something decent. That provides alot of features, great video playback experience, and abit of casual gaming without having to shell more $$ on discrete video cards, or skimp on parts of the system to get something "acceptable".
People seem to think some how low end intel chips, and even undervolted should be more than enough against athlon X2s. Firstly, they are at stock. Secondly they aren't OCed to 3GHz+. Im not sure if this is pure blindness but from what i can tell X2s are overall faster (stock) than the E2x00 and they are neck to neck with CPU power consumption (especially the enery efficent 4450/4850e chips). And since when did 45nm intel chips come into equation? the only 45nm considered low end is the E7200, and thats well over $100.
I can refer back to the AT article regarding video playback. Even a core 2 duo stumbles.
Link
Thats why people claiming that a dual core is "enough" for H.264 and VC1 (also blu-ray, HD etc) is just spreading false information.
I'd agree. I'm just saying for gaming purposes it makes more sense to get a higher end discrete GPU instead, you get a lot more gaming bang for your buck.
Exactly, I'm favouring performance over features. Viditor challenged someone to configure an Intel platform that rivaled the gaming performance of his listed system, so I've chosen a no frills board that gets the job done, and put more of the budget towards the GPU.
My point is that blindly limiting yourself to the 780G just because 'its the best IGP' is clearly not the best way to go about building a budget gaming system. Yes, you could do the same with AMD too, did I say you couldn't? But viditor wanted an Intel platform for comparison, so I configured one. I can easily configure a similar AMD system, opting for a cheaper mobo and focusing on the GPU.
This isn't really about Intel vs AMD at all, its more about IGP vs discrete GPU for gaming purposes, and even the 780G totally pales in comparison to low end discrete GPUs.
2. some people more than what you probably think spend more at good quality speakers as they think it is a worthy investment as it last for so long.
4. and would you want to remove those then reconnect some other wire before you play?
sorry for the crappy English as this is not my native language
Cookie Monster
Diamond Member
- May 7, 2005
- 5,161
- 32
- 86
I guess you did show that any setup with a gpu component thats the most expensive has the better GPU performance. But for everything else your system sucks at it. I guess he should have worded it more carefully, but obviously your argument doesnt really prove that intel is better when it comes to this. Thats all you've shown.
Now give us something that can match that AMD setup in everything while maintaining the graphical performance (and without rebates). Its going to be hard.
Now give us something that can match that AMD setup in everything while maintaining the graphical performance (and without rebates). Its going to be hard.
I think this whole debate has been quite interesting and it really kinda points to a conclusion which is that once last year's somewhat adequately performing discreet video cards hit the clearance bin and can be picked up for a mere $20 the whole topic becomes one of "why would you get an IGP based system if you had a choice?".
Single-core versus dual-core chips reached this point too a while back where the bargain basement prices on X2's got so silly low that even if you weren't doing multi-threaded stuff it was just kind of pointless to save two bucks by buying a $58 single-core CPU versus a $60 X2. (figuratively speaking here of course)
I agree hands-down no questions about it that for the system integrators and builders who sell these things to the masses, having a decent IGP is a godsend over having to deal with another discreet component in the system. Your warranty handling is way simpler (the mobo OEM owns the issue), the vid card has zero risk of becoming disconnected in transit, etc. Anything that streamlines their end of the business will be jumped on instantly (because their competitors will, and if they don't then they are dead within a year).
But for us DIY'ers what I like seeing in this thread is that there is obvious choice for us. We have alternatives. Why are we talking about system builds for a mere $167 here? Because AMD and Intel are competing in this market segment. This I like.
One last comment...wouldn't this make for an awesome Anandtech article?
If Anand and Co did a "build-off" review on the *best* AMD versus Intel systems they can build for <$200 and evaluate them based on loudness/quietness, power consumption, performance at HTPC/gaming(with typical resolution, not 30" monitors)/windows apps/small'ish encoding type jobs? It sure would seem like a valuable article in the hands of a lot of DIY'ers.
Single-core versus dual-core chips reached this point too a while back where the bargain basement prices on X2's got so silly low that even if you weren't doing multi-threaded stuff it was just kind of pointless to save two bucks by buying a $58 single-core CPU versus a $60 X2. (figuratively speaking here of course)
I agree hands-down no questions about it that for the system integrators and builders who sell these things to the masses, having a decent IGP is a godsend over having to deal with another discreet component in the system. Your warranty handling is way simpler (the mobo OEM owns the issue), the vid card has zero risk of becoming disconnected in transit, etc. Anything that streamlines their end of the business will be jumped on instantly (because their competitors will, and if they don't then they are dead within a year).
But for us DIY'ers what I like seeing in this thread is that there is obvious choice for us. We have alternatives. Why are we talking about system builds for a mere $167 here? Because AMD and Intel are competing in this market segment. This I like.
One last comment...wouldn't this make for an awesome Anandtech article?
If Anand and Co did a "build-off" review on the *best* AMD versus Intel systems they can build for <$200 and evaluate them based on loudness/quietness, power consumption, performance at HTPC/gaming(with typical resolution, not 30" monitors)/windows apps/small'ish encoding type jobs? It sure would seem like a valuable article in the hands of a lot of DIY'ers.
Cookie Monster
Diamond Member
- May 7, 2005
- 5,161
- 32
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Shhhh! That's not supposed to get out. Err, I mean, sha like whatever duuude, i donna car man. Can I bum a smoke?
Well said Idontcare.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is this - when the budget is so low, its all about prioritising on the key components and compromising on others. It's impossible to get a 'well rounded' system on a sub $200 platform - you're gonna have to cut corners somewhere.
From a gaming perspective, a $40 GPU (albeit after MIR) that has ~4 times the performance of the best IGP is hard to argue against. If that means sacfricifing a few USB ports, or missing out on 7.1 audio, then so be it.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is this - when the budget is so low, its all about prioritising on the key components and compromising on others. It's impossible to get a 'well rounded' system on a sub $200 platform - you're gonna have to cut corners somewhere.
From a gaming perspective, a $40 GPU (albeit after MIR) that has ~4 times the performance of the best IGP is hard to argue against. If that means sacfricifing a few USB ports, or missing out on 7.1 audio, then so be it.
myocardia
Diamond Member
- Jun 21, 2003
- 9,291
- 30
- 91
Exactly, 780G is definitely the top dog in IGP's now, but that doesn't mean anyone should try to build a gaming system around it. But you and I, along with all of the other regulars here on this forum, are such a small percentage of the money that's involved in this industry, that I'm not sure we even count to either AMD or Intel.
Also, I think that Idontcare is completely right about OEM's like Dell, HP, etc. Their best selling systems for the next year will most likely have the 780G chipset, I would guess. And if you stop and think about it, their customers will be better off because of that. If you were an average ~12 year old gamer, whose parents refused to spend $50-100 for a discrete video card, wouldn't you be doing everything in your power to talk your parents into buying a system based around the 780G, instead of the Intel eqivalent, even if the processor is much slower? I know that I would, and believe it or not, the 12 year old boy in most families is the one who knows the most about computers, so he's actually the one who most often has the most say in which computer gets bought at Best Buy or Wal Mart.
I think this is where we really disagree...
My feeling is that the system I listed is an extremely well rounded system for sub $200.
There are certainly areas where you can improve things based on your needs, but for a well rounded system, that 780G plays all games (albeit at only 1280/1024 and medium res without AA).
It connects to everything you need, has HDMI if you want to watch that movie you made on the plasma, runs everything you can think of for the SOHO quite well, etc...
If you had no idea why you want a computer, but knew you needed one (which is what I hear from most consumers these days)...this would be the very best choice possible IMHO.
This almost reminds me of those who never got Matrox's business model back in their heyday. They sold a good number of videocards to consumers concerned solely with display accuracy and quality. Meanwhile most every other company choose to place more emphasis on sheer speed. Eventually Matrox experienced a weakening demand the moment quality standards became more uniform.
I would hope there will always be companies smartly looking to capitalize on voids in the marketplace. And in this particular void the marketplace itself to fill is fairly vast; we're talking major corporations and businesses looking to migrate toward and support a solitary overall robust platform with a very small footprint.
I would hope there will always be companies smartly looking to capitalize on voids in the marketplace. And in this particular void the marketplace itself to fill is fairly vast; we're talking major corporations and businesses looking to migrate toward and support a solitary overall robust platform with a very small footprint.
I agree with your post, except the bolded part. Don't get me wrong, 780G is a great IGP, the best currently available, but one thing it does *not* do well is gaming. Yes, it does better than other IGPs, but that doesn't mean its suitable for gaming, at least at 1280 x 1024.
Here are some performance numbers at 1280 x 1024 low/minimum details, courtesy of Firingsquad
FEAR: 17fps (unplayable)
Company of Heroes: 41fps (playable)
HL2 Ep2: 26fps (borderline, very choppy)
Lost Planet : 9fps (unplayable)
Crysis: 7fps (unplayable)
780G simply can not play the majority of games at 1280 x 1024, even at minimum detail settings, let alone medium details as you claim.
To further my point, Neoseeker has an article looking at the gaming performance of the HD3450 in todays shader intensive games. Most of the games are unplayable at 1024 x 768, let alone 1280 x 1024. Now compare the performance to the 8600GT, which is comparable to a HD 3650.
Considering the 780G IGP is even slower than a HD3450 by some 20%, you may begin to understand why I'm not blindly endorsing the 780G as an ideal gaming platform, even for casual gamers.
Fair enough and good feedback!
So, it appears that if you are playing those games in the unplayable list, you will need to add a 34xx card ($35)...unless you get a wild deal with a MIR on something better.
Originally posted by: Viditor
Fair enough and good feedback!
So, it appears that if you are playing those games in the unplayable list, you will need to add a 34xx card ($35)...unless you get a wild deal with a MIR on something better.
You're welcome.
As for adding a HD34x0 card, it won't really help much, in a practical sense, at least for the more demanding games. Yes, there is about a 70% performance boost, which looks great on paper, but +70% over single digit framerates barely gets it into the low teens, which is still far from playable. It'll be helpful for games like FEAR and HL2 where +70% is the difference between playability, so its a mixed bag.
However, even if you are running a 780G mobo, it makes more sense to upgrade to a HD3650 rather than getting an extra HD34x0 for Crossfire.
Newegg prices (yes, MIR applies for both
)HD3650 512MB - $40
HD3450 256MB - $25
With such a small difference in price, you are essentially getting double (if not more) the graphical performance for 15 bucks. Thats a bargain if I've ever seen one.
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: Viditor
Fair enough and good feedback!
So, it appears that if you are playing those games in the unplayable list, you will need to add a 34xx card ($35)...unless you get a wild deal with a MIR on something better.
You're welcome.
As for adding a HD34x0 card, it won't really help much, in a practical sense, at least for the more demanding games. Yes, there is about a 70% performance boost, which looks great on paper, but +70% over single digit framerates barely gets it into the low teens, which is still far from playable. It'll be helpful for games like FEAR and HL2 where +70% is the difference between playability, so its a mixed bag.
However, even if you are running a 780G mobo, it makes more sense to upgrade to a HD3650 rather than getting an extra HD34x0 for Crossfire.
Newegg prices (yes, MIR applies for both
HD3650 512MB - $40
HD3450 256MB - $25
With such a small difference in price, you are essentially getting double (if not more) the graphical performance for 15 bucks. Thats a bargain if I've ever seen one.
If you add the 34xx and run it in hybrid mode, the boost is even better...
The Gamespot comparison shows all 3 on various games...rmember that the 780G is the 3200.
BTW, I agree that the 36xx with a MIR is by far the best graphics deal...
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Newegg prices (yes, MIR applies for both
HD3650 512MB - $40
HD3450 256MB - $25
With such a small difference in price, you are essentially getting double (if not more) the graphical performance for 15 bucks. Thats a bargain if I've ever seen one.
That could buy me 10-20 meals
it might be 1-2 days salary for general workers
or 2-3 days salary for those who are working as house maids
Zap
Elite Member
- Oct 13, 1999
- 22,377
- 7
- 81
I disagree with your disagree.
So far I've only found a difference in file transfers. Gaming has zero difference in performance between 100mbit and 1000mbit for clients. Potentially it may make a difference with the server, if there's a HUGE number of clients.The ECS 945GC chipset board is a pretty terrible overclocker. I've had a chance to play around with it (friend got in on a Fry's deal) and IMO it is worse than some other 945G and 945GC chipset boards out there (I've tried a couple others). About the only thing you can do with it is to do a BSEL mod.
Typical fanboys, haha.
For a non-overclocker non-gamer who doesn't do video encoding, an AMD CPU on a 780G chipset board is IMO a very good value.
Going a little off topic but would this chip be good for a nongamer? Think about pairing it with a x2 6400 on a ATX board.
If Intel wanted they could easily crush AMD on the low end. That being said, the E2xxx series isn't even a valiant attempt. Obviously a E7200 for under $150 is getting really close. We're talking about an architecture that relies heavily on cache. I don't care what benches say about a crippled C2D. Under real world general usage there's no comparison to an X2.
Speaking of real world comparisons, I've often been met with confusion for preferring an integrated memory controller and Hypertransport or anything non-FSB. I feel it has lots to do with making AMD systems feel much snappier. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. In the way I often use my computer, yes, this also makes AMD a superior choice to me. Often with the Core Two it feels like you're waiting around to go really fast. In fact, I would love to see useless benches like Superpi be replaced with more real world comparisons like this one.
Intel Q6600 VS AMD 6400+ X2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYXJKwdN2h8
Speaking of real world comparisons, I've often been met with confusion for preferring an integrated memory controller and Hypertransport or anything non-FSB. I feel it has lots to do with making AMD systems feel much snappier. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. In the way I often use my computer, yes, this also makes AMD a superior choice to me. Often with the Core Two it feels like you're waiting around to go really fast. In fact, I would love to see useless benches like Superpi be replaced with more real world comparisons like this one.
Intel Q6600 VS AMD 6400+ X2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYXJKwdN2h8
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