AMD's Barton Contains 512kb of L2 cache + possible MS x86-64 support **UPDATE CONFIRMED**

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jm0ris0n

Golden Member
Sep 15, 2000
1,407
0
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As an AMD investor I'd be steamed if they release Hammer at less than 500. I'd like to see 750 street for highest grade and 500 for lowest.

I blew $5,000 @$24.00 a share in october 2000. Jm0 wants his money back!
 

CocaCola5

Golden Member
Jan 5, 2001
1,599
0
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<< As an AMD investor I'd be steamed if they release Hammer at less than 500. I'd like to see 750 street for highest grade and 500 for lowest.

I blew $5,000 @$24.00 a share in october 2000. Jm0 wants his money back!
>>





I don't think its in AMDs interest to appreciate the price of its Clawhammer, this role will probably be left to Sledgehammer. Claw is a high-end consumer chip catered to non-critical systems, unless the whole chip industry has a sudden double in ASP, I doubt AMD could sustain $750 ASP for Claw(outside of its initial release), as much as AMD would like it that way.
 

Mrburns2007

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2001
2,595
0
0
If AMD releases clawhammer at $500 or higher or more I won't be a customer anymore, it will make more sense to buy a Pentium 4 by quarter 4 this year considering it can overclock so much better than the Athlon XP.

They said it was going to be Athlon level pricing and it better stay that way, Athlon 2100 is $229 on pricewatch right now.

 

Mrburns2007

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2001
2,595
0
0
If AMD releases clawhammer at $500 or higher or more I won't be a customer anymore, it will make more sense to buy a Pentium 4 by quarter 4 this year considering it can overclock so much better than the Athlon XP.

They said it was going to be Athlon level pricing and it better stay that way, Athlon 2100 is $229 on pricewatch right now.

 

Mrburns2007

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2001
2,595
0
0


<< 6) Few people need the Hammer's performance, and even fewer need a 64 bit processor >>



Says you, I want 64 bit and Hammers performance, I want AMD to launch the 64 bit era to the consumer. What's the point of the sledgehammer if the clawhammer is going to be an ultra expensive cpu.

This should be AMD's plan:

Release the clawhammer at the Athlon price point, cancel barton it's not going to be needed, then we can all run 64 bit windows and begin searching for 64 bit apps which should show some real performance gains over 32 bit.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,042
4,688
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"Says you, I want 64 bit"
Give me your reasons why. Do you use numbers that are too large for 32 bit? Or do you use numbers so precise that 32 bit isn't enough? Remember: speed and 64 bit have nothing to do with each other.

"and Hammers performance"
Hammer's performance will be good, but not drastically faster than the Barton or P4 available at the time. I'm just saying that an Athlon XP 2x00+ (x being the Barton speed at the end of this year) will probably be fast enough for the vast majority of people, going to a Hammer at 3400+ won't provide a huge jump - at least not for the price. Sure I can buy a 2.4 GHz P4, but its performance just isn't worth the $288 price jump from the 2.0 GHz P4. The same will apply to the Hammer, will you be willing to pay $300-$500 more to go from a 2800+ Athlon XP to a 3400+ Hammer? For most people the answer will be no.

"I want AMD to launch the 64 bit era to the consumer"
They will. Doesn't mean much in the whole scheme of things, but they will. It is like wanting Breyer's to release sardine flavored ice cream. Sure the ice cream could be a huge hit eventually made by all companies (and tasty according to the Food TV - and Iron Chef), but it really doesn't matter what company introduced it. 64 bit processors have been around for quite a while now (with AMD in almost last place), all you are asking is for one company to make it more easily purchased.

"What's the point of the sledgehammer if the clawhammer is going to be an ultra expensive cpu."
Clawhammer: High end consumer, low end workstation. Sledgehammer: High end workstation, and server. Sledgehammer will be competing mostly with Intel's McKinley (the Itanium sucessor). These are for servers and cost up to $3000 per processor. AMD will be a value server, but $2000 per Sledgehammer is quite reasonable to undercut Intel. Think of applications using 1-2 processors, those will be great for Claw. Now think of programs needing 3+ processors (many people would have trouble with this), those are for Sledge.

"Release the clawhammer at the Athlon price point"
And have another year of losses? AMD cannot lose money forever.

"cancel barton it's not going to be needed"
Barton will be almost the same speed as the Hammer (20% is a reasonalbe speed difference estimate). That is the difference between an Athlon XP 1700+ and an Athlon XP 2100+. Yes there is a difference, but most people with an Athlon XP 1700+ aren't rushing to upgrade...

"then we can all run 64 bit windows"
I've yet to see the pricetag on 64 bit Windows. If anyone knows the price, I'd like to be told. I'm certain, like NFS4 said, that Windows will support the Hammer, but that says nothing about the price (it could be $1000+ for 64 bit Windows if that is what Microsoft wants).

"and begin searching for 64 bit apps which should show some real performance gains over 32 bit."
Most 64 bit apps will perform about 5% SLOWER. The longer variables take up valuable cache space, causing a performance decrease. This goes back to my original question in this post, do you really need 64 bit? If not, why take a 5% speed decrease just to brag that it is 64 bit?
 

andreasl

Senior member
Aug 25, 2000
419
0
0


<< Sledgehammer will be competing mostly with Intel's McKinley (the Itanium sucessor). >>



No, it will compete with the Xeon, not Itanium. Itanium is meant for large scale computer systems like HP superdome (64 CPU's)



<< Most 64 bit apps will perform about 5% SLOWER. The longer variables take up valuable cache space, causing a performance decrease. This goes back to my original question in this post, do you really need 64 bit? If not, why take a 5% speed decrease just to brag that it is 64 bit? >>



If all things being equal yes. But they aren't. x86-64 has 16 GPR as opposed to x86-32which has only 8. The extra registers should do more than make up for the performance loss from lower hit-rate in the caches.



<< "Release the clawhammer at the Athlon price point"
And have another year of losses? AMD cannot lose money forever.
>>



This may surprise you but AMD's losses are due to Flash, not CPU's. Like Intel, AMD is making money on selling processors. Just their overall result is being dragged into the red by flash.
 

AGodspeed

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2001
3,353
0
0


<<

<< "Release the clawhammer at the Athlon price point"
And have another year of losses? AMD cannot lose money forever.
>>

This may surprise you but AMD's losses are due to Flash, not CPU's. Like Intel, AMD is making money on selling processors. Just their overall result is being dragged into the red by flash.
>>

As andreasl said, AMD's processor revenue is the cash cow for AMD right now. The flash memory memory just plain stinks right now, and AMD has really felt it. Telecommunications in general has gone down the tubes in the last two years, and especially last year. This slump has significantly affected the flash memory market.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
<<Telecommunications in general has gone down the tubes in the last two years, and especially last year.>>

Investors perhaps realized that they only offered tangibles and that the growth of the internet in the home is stagnant, if not declining.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,042
4,688
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"No, it will compete with the Xeon, not Itanium. Itanium is meant for large scale computer systems like HP superdome (64 CPU's)"
For practical reasons someone needing a 2 processor computer will choose between a dual Intel Xeon and a dual Clawhammer. It would be stupid to consider Xeon MP, Itanium, or Sledgehammer on a dual workstation since the prices will be significantly greater. So I disagree that Sledge will compete with the Intel Xeon. When going for a 3+ processor computer neither the Intel Xeon nor the Clawhammer will work. In that situation, you have 3 choices: Xeon MP, Itanium, and Sledgehammer. So yes, the sledgehammer is in there competing with Itanium. In reality, most people will only choose the Itanium for 8+ processors, but it does work quite well in 4-8 processor machines (which is the realm of the Sledgehammer).

"This may surprise you but AMD's losses are due to Flash, not CPU's. Like Intel, AMD is making money on selling processors. Just their overall result is being dragged into the red by flash."
Actully it is common knowledge that flash sales are extremely low, and common knowledge doesn't surprise me.
1) AMD is losing money.
2) I see no recovery in flash sales in the near future. AMD just said its flash sales took another nose dive this quarter (although they think the diving has ended there is no proof that the sales will soar back up to where they used to be).
3) With the flash market in the dumps, AMD cannot raise flash prices to stop the money loss.
4) Thus AMD's only choice is to raise CPU, chipset, or networking prices.
5) I may be wrong, but isn't AMD slowly getting out of the chipset business?
6) I also may be wrong, but aren't AMD's networking sales extremely minor to their overall profitablity?
7) This leaves AMD with the only option to raise CPU prices.
So the cause of the money losses is as unimportant as the color of AMD's toilets. The only way they have at the moment to end the losses is through processor pricing.
 

andreasl

Senior member
Aug 25, 2000
419
0
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<< For practical reasons someone needing a 2 processor computer will choose between a dual Intel Xeon and a dual Clawhammer. It would be stupid to consider Xeon MP, Itanium, or Sledgehammer on a dual workstation since the prices will be significantly greater. >>



When I said Xeon I obviously meant the Xeon MP as well. Intel just released the Xeon MP based on the Netburst core with 512KB-1MB of L3 cache.



<< So I disagree that Sledge will compete with the Intel Xeon. When going for a 3+ processor computer neither the Intel Xeon nor the Clawhammer will work. In that situation, you have 3 choices: Xeon MP, Itanium, and Sledgehammer. So yes, the sledgehammer is in there competing with Itanium. In reality, most people will only choose the Itanium for 8+ processors, but it does work quite well in 4-8 processor machines (which is the realm of the Sledgehammer).
>>



Only 3 choices? You kidding? Ever heard of companies like HP, IBM, Sun etc? The reason that Sledgehammer will compete with Xeon MP is because it is binary compatible with it. Sledgehammer will run everything that Xeon will.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,042
4,688
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This part of the discussion started back when discussing the price level of the Sledgehammer and the reasons for it. The reason for Sledge is obvious: for machines with 3-8 processors. The pricing is all that is left to discuss.


<< When I said Xeon I obviously meant the Xeon MP as well. Intel just released the Xeon MP based on the Netburst core with 512KB-1MB of L3 cache. >>


The Xeon and Xeon MP are completely different beasts - different speeds, different uses, different prices, different cache, just completely different. When someone mentions Xeon, I had never seen anyone discussing the Xeon MP as a normal Xeon - so I just assumed you were talking about just the Xeon. It is not at all obvious that you meant Xeon MP.

Since we are talking about price level of the Sledge lets look at prices from the major competetor (per processor in lots of 1000 from the manufacturer - not steet prices). Intel Xeon: $183-$465. Xeon MP: $1177-$3692. Itanium: $1177-$4227. So regardless of whether Sledge competes with the Xeon MP or the Itanium, the price of its competition is the same. Thus the Sledge price will be roughly in the $1000-$4000 range - probably undercutting the Intel processors a bit.



<< Only 3 choices? You kidding? Ever heard of companies like HP, IBM, Sun etc? The reason that Sledgehammer will compete with Xeon MP is because it is binary compatible with it. Sledgehammer will run everything that Xeon will. >>


I'm in the computational fluid dynamics field (computer simulations of cars, airplanes, industrial plants, missiles, etc.). People in my field are one of the major purchasers of HP, IBM, and Sun computers. An interesting thing has happened in the last 2 years - it is now a waste of money to buy HP, IBM, and Sun. Sure people still buy them since they are used to using them and don't keep up with the latest computer news. However a growing number of us are moving to Intel and AMD. Last summer we moved our HP computers to storage and replaced them with dual Xeons and we won't be looking back.

A dual 2.4 GHz Intel Xeon costs about $4000 decently equipped. It will outperform most 8 processor machines from HP, IBM, or Sun. Just for fun, look at the $17,000 Sun workstation price for a 4 processor workstation. or look at the $23,000 price for a better Dual processor workstation. So going with Intel I can get double the performance at one tenth of the price. For even better performance you can buy at either the Xeon MP or Itanium (or buy a cluster of Xeons). A cluster of two dual 1.7 GHz Xeons costs $7,000 well equipped and it will match the performance of a 18 processor Sun Fire15k. For less hastle, a quad Xeon MP will have the same performance as that cluster and only costs about $30,000. Look at the $3.2 million dollar price tag on that Sun machine. Should I continue the comparison with even faster performing computers?

The people still buying HP, IBM, and Sun do it since they are under the false impression that spending $3 million guarantees the best performance. I cringe when I have to use one of them - since I know they were a complete waste of money. I didn't forget them, just the HP, IBM, and Sun companies aren't worth the money anymore.

Now think about servers instead of high-end workstations/supercomputers. Is Anandtech on HP, IBM, or Sun? No. And hopefully Anandtechs great server articles will slowly make more companies aware that cheaper solutions exist. At the moment, almost no one will risk buying an AMD server, but times will change - but slowly. The HP, IBM, Sun servers aren't necessarily better, faster or more stable - but they sure cost a lot more.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Where does that link say anything about MS support? Thought it was too good to be true... :(
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
1,165
23
81
Remember: speed and 64 bit have nothing to do with each other.

Speed & 64 bit have a LOT to do with each other.!

Being able to address > 4gig of memory can vastly increase speeds if you are dealing with large databases, etc. Though i'll admit we're a long way from PCs needing to manipulate that much data in memory.

Most numeric operations will not require >32 bits, and therefore, won't benefit from 64bit. But *STRINGS* on the other hand can easily consume 64bits (8 characters).

When you are doing operations that require *strings* to be moved or compared a 64bit processor can perform the same tasks as a 32bit processor in as little as 1/2 as many instructions.
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
0
0
dullard: While I completely agree that clustering of low-end machines (ie Xeon up until now) has become a new dominant market in high-performance computing, I think it's way too early to predict the death of enterprise computing. "High-end" x86 has certainly stole a lot of the 2- to 8-way market for workstations and small servers from high-end RISC, but the clustering of these systems is not a solution to everything. No offense, and with all due respect to x86's high-performance at a cheap price, but I really don't see how you can say that you're going to get higher performance from a 2-way Xeon system over an 8-way HP PA-8700 system...that may be true for you but I can't say its true in general. At the opposite end, I do most of my programming work on 1GHz P3 Linux boxes at the CS department (because of their large monitors ;)), but ssh into the "antiquated" uniprocessor 450MHz US-II Sun boxes, which recently have offered twice the performance for some machine learning and neural network/digit recognition programs I've been writing. I know more than a few EEs who won't touch x86 for VLSI placing and routing, not only because the software is not available for x86, but it can't offer the same level of floating-point performance.

After all, people have been predicting the demise of the mainframe for twenty years, and that's an even smaller niche market than enterprise computing...but last year half of IBM's revenues, amounting to around $40 billion, came from mainframe sales and services. And the mainframe market has been increasing by 10% per year since 1999. Even as clustering pushes higher-end enterprise systems into a smaller corner, it's a very lucrative market that will be filled. And IBM, HP, Compaq and others are certainly able to lead the lower-end market using Xeons and Itaniums (and who knows, maybe Sledgehammer)...the Sun Fire 15K that you linked is overpriced (arguably like all Sun systems ;)), considering that HP is building a custom McKinley-based supercomputer with nearly 20 times as many CPUs, 6.4 times as much memory, and over 400 times as much disk space for "only" 8 times the cost.

Regardless, even if clustering does eventually completely take over high-performance computing, it's not going to happen overnight, or even in a few years (again, consider how long mainframes have stuck around). If there's money to be made in the enterprise market in the forseeable future, there's got to be someone to fill it. ;)

edit: Clustering has certainly been a godsend for the computationally-intensive environment. I do part-time work for a high-energy physics group that is designing a particle detection system for CERN's Large Hadron Collider. The collision simulation dataset tests that I run would take in excess of 2- to 4-months on a 1GHz P3 machine, and I often have 10 dataset tasks in the pipeline :eek:. We have a 100 CPU cluster (mostly 1GHz P3 linux boxes) using a distributing computing environment. Because of the computing-intensive nature and low-IO requirements of the tasks, we get a linear speedup for our simulations.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't see how clustering can offer the same 10,000+ IO transactions/sec performance that high-end enterprise and mainframe systems can offer.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
These new XEON MPs and the Hammer family should bring terminal services more efficiently to the middle-sized company. If I was supporting a company of 10-50 employees I'd be pushing terminal services over large scale upgrades considering I can have a giant boost in storage and performance with a small cluster of services for less money and upkeep costs. You can make a Celeron 266MHz workstation seem and feel every bit like it has the power of a brand new P4-2GHz if you set up the cluster right. And next year I can turn around and make it feel like a P4-3GHz with a few upgrades!

Okay I'm exaggerating the price and performance, but you get the idea. ;)
 

x86

Banned
Oct 12, 2001
397
0
0
I understand that you are only trying to prognosticate the approximate selling price of Sledgehammers and Clawhammers, but please note that if there isn't any demand for these chips, AMD will not be able to raise the prices. Given that Microsoft is going to release an x86-64 compatible OS, and that HP and CPQ merge, which first tier server manufacturer is going to implement their product line with something that isn't popular in the first place? It may be extremely popular to us enthusiast community, but corporate users will think twice before going AMD on their costly and fragile server farms. IBM and Sun are set with their own solutions, Dell is 100% Intel, HP-CPQ have pledged their alliance to Intel, and Gateway isn't a big player, if they sell any, they will be selling Intel solutions. What's left? You tell me, but from what I know: nobody. If this is so, then AMD will/cannot have $500.00+ prices.

My thoughts

-x86
 

zemus

Member
Mar 6, 2002
47
0
0
"Says you, I want 64 bit"
Give me your reasons why. Do you use numbers that are too large for 32 bit? Or do you use numbers so precise that 32 bit isn't enough? Remember: speed and 64 bit have nothing to do with each other.


--------------

Well, it's not exactly that simple... First off, it's not really about data precision, like one user put it, if thats all it was about, we woudl hardly need the i386 format even. however there is the law of diminishing returns in all of this. Here is the effects 64 bit will have in order starting with most benificial to you and me

64 bit data sizes do matter, not because we need numbers that big, but during block transferes one can now move twice the raw data in and out of the registers ( as one user here stated, this can be strings, but applies to any block of data in liniar form that is simply being moved around ). How usefull this can be is hard to gauge as it really depends on what the program is doing, performance gaains can in theory be anywhere from 1X to 2X. In relality, it's probabbly about 5-15% depepedning on the program. Graphics programs will probabbly see closer to the 15%. Of course for any of this to mean anything, of course code must be 64 bit coded.

Another reaseon 64 bit data sizes are good is in fact the reason you orginally stated, though will rarely benifit me and you. If you happen to need these number sizes, the performance increase can be tramendous, not simply 2X the performance, but probabbly closer to 5-10X. why? Because. if you need such data sizes in i386, they have to be essentially emulated, and this has alot of overhead that would be removed with true 64 bit sizes.

probabbly the least important thing for me and you is the 64 bit memory addressing ( though it's still legitimatly important to some ). If you need that level of memory, there really is no good solution other than a true 64 bit memory model. Sure one can make 32/36 bit memory address more than it's hardware limit though forms expanded/banked memory schemes, but this is not really a desirable thing to do.


Basically though, the first reason is really the only reason that me and you will benifit from, but it's indeed a real bennifit
 

Goi

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
6,771
7
91
Sheesh, I can't wait no more. Come thoroughbred I'm getting myself one and sitting on it till late 2003 at least...should last me a while...I just can't wait for the Barton...been sitting on my Celeron 850 for far too long.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,042
4,688
126
"Being able to address > 4gig of memory can vastly increase speeds if you are dealing with large databases, etc. Though i'll admit we're a long way from PCs needing to manipulate that much data in memory."
I agree that if you run out of memory, then 64 bit addressing of >4GB will drastically speed things up. However few people need more than 4gb per machine. Take me for example, if I have a simulation that needs 10GB, I just spread it out on 10 Xeon machnes in a cluster with 1 GB each. Plus current Xeons can now access 12 GB in a non-windows OS - without a 64bit processor.

"While I completely agree that clustering of low-end machines (ie Xeon up until now) has become a new dominant market in high-performance computing, I think it's way too early to predict the death of enterprise computing...that may be true for you but I can't say its true in general."
It is possible that they might produce something great and powerful soon that tops both AMD and Intel, so they extend their life for a bit longer. However I think the long term will see the decline of proprietary processors. My post was about my CFD field - with the proprietary processors are already losing the battle. With Intel and AMD both strongly pushing into that market (with Itanium and Hammer) I really think that other fields will also start switching as well. There just isn't the economic need for as much competition as there is - someone will be losing the battle (and in my opinion it is the proprietary processors). Didn't Intel purchase the rights to the HP processors? That is one down already.

"And IBM, HP, Compaq and others are certainly able to lead the lower-end market using Xeons and Itaniums (and who knows, maybe Sledgehammer)..."
That is what I'm saying. The proprietary processors in the low end are going to die relatively quickly; with Xeons, Itaniums, and Hammers to replace them. It is only a matter of time for the high end ones to die off as well (Bye bye multiple Sun processors, hello multiple Itanium processors). The companies IBM, HP, Sun, etc will still exist for quite some time. But they are beginning to see that pooring billions of dollars into research of these proprietary processors is not the best way to earn money (instead the service of these massive supercomputers will be the likely money maker).

Small and medium sized businesses are really shunning the proprietary solutions. They are welcoming the new solutions with open arms. Large businesses, universities, and governements will stick with the others for now - but not forever.

"block transferes one can now move twice the raw data in and out of the registers...it's probabbly about 5-15% [performance gain] depepedning on the program"
This works as long as you double the number of registers - otherwise you get a small performance decrease. More registers = more cost. At this point in time, I don't think we need to make this jump quite yet. I just think AMD is releasing 64-bit to the consumer before its time.



You all make valid points, but I still am not convinced that (A) the proprietary processors can resist the onslaught of AMD and Intel releasing speed boosts every 3 months and (B) that enough consumers need 64 bit to justify the extra cost that 64-bit will add to a processor. Maybe if AMD made a cheaper 32-bit Hammer, then the Hammer would be a great success today...