AMD XP2700 and DX9 Benchmarks

[Pederv]

The System (after upgrades):
XP2700
K7N2
2GB Corsair (MemTest 86 OK) was 512K
3850 (AGP) was Radeon 7000
120GB WD HD
450 Watt Power Supply

The Problem:
Windows XP installed and updated with no problems at 2700 speed (2.166 GHz).
MemTest 86 passed at 2700 speed.
3DMark2000 passed at 2700 speed.
3DMark2001SE fails and reboots system at test 16 (the one with the fish swimming in the lake) at 2700 speed.
3DMark03 fails and reboots system at test 2 (Battle for Proxycon) at 2700 speed.
Didn't bother running any other 3DMark tests.

Have already tried:
I bought 3 of the 3850 AGP cards for the 3 AGP systems I'm upgrading, I tried a different 3850.
Tried an AGP X800.
Tried a different power supply with more current available on the +12V.
Tried various AGP settings in the motherboard BIOS.
Tried arranging the memory so it was working in single channel mode.
Tried increasing the CPU core by 0.075V.

Current Status:
Clocked the CPU down to XP2100 speed (1.733 GHz).
System passes all 3DMark tests.

Any guesses as to what's going on and how to fix it?

EDIT: Fixed frequency values.

 

[Denithor]

Using stock cooler or aftermarket on CPU? What are your temps during testing?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Does the 3850 AGP have a secondary power connector on it, or is it drawing all it's power from the AGP slot? The mobo's onboard voltage regulators may not be strong enough to handle the combined load of an overclocked CPU and that graphics card.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: Denithor
Using stock cooler or aftermarket on CPU? What are your temps during testing?

Aftermarket cooler. Runs at about 105F at idle, I haven't checked the temp under load. The reason I haven't suspected the CPU overheating is because the system reboots at exactly the same time every time, just as the mentioned tests start.

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Does the 3850 AGP have a secondary power connector on it, or is it drawing all it's power from the AGP slot? The mobo's onboard voltage regulators may not be strong enough to handle the combined load of an overclocked CPU and that graphics card.

Yes it has a secondary power connector. It comes with an 8 pin adapter that is basically a PCI-E adapter with 2 extra grounds. I tried running the 3850 with both the included adapter and off of the PCI-E adapter, same problem.

The CPU is a 2700 currently running as a 2100, so it's not overclocked.

 

[Pederv]

Well, I searched MSI's site and found a couple of things that I hadn't tried - the problem still exsists.

Before I called it a night I set the motherboard BIOS to High Performance Defaults with the CPU set as an XP2700 and started Prime95. When I got up this morning prime was still running and the CPU temp was 128F as reported by PC Wizard.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Pederv
Current Status:
Clocked the CPU down to XP2100 speed (1.733 GHz).
System passes all 3DMark tests.

Any guesses as to what's going on and how to fix it?

This is all you need to know. Your motherboard obviously isn't stable @ 166Mhz FSB. Either that, or it isn't able to provide enough current to the CPU @ ~2.1Ghz.

 

[Pederv]

Well if my nephew doesn't want to play games, I can leave the system clocked up to the 2700 that it is. But that's not why I upgraded the video card from the Radeon 7000 to the 3850.

The system ran prime 95 for two days clocked at 2.167 GHz, but the fastest I can clock it and run all of the 3DMarks is 1.885 GHz (145 x 13). I tried an Earthwatts 500, an Earthwatts 650 and an Enermax EG651P-VE with the same results.

A friend has an NForce2 socket A motherboard that he's not using, maybe I can talk him out of it.

As the system sits now it's running faster than it was on the 8K3A+ (KT333), but it can use all the CPU speed it can get.

 

[Pederv]

It's just not going to happen.
Three different NForce2 motherboards, two different types of Socket A Athlons, two different ATI AGP video cards and I still can't get the CPU to clock faster than 1.9 GHz.

A friend has his 2800 Barton with a 3650 working at full speed, but one of the motherboards that I have is the same kind that he's using.

I've found other people having this same issue, so I know I'm not alone.

I guess the solution is to lock the AGP and PCI busses and set the CPU and memeory bus to 1:1 and adjust the FSB until you can run all of the 3DMark's.

Motherboards:
K7N2
8RDA3+
NF7-S2G

Video Cards:
X800 (AGP)
HD3850 (AGP)

Processors:
XP2700 (Thoroughbred)
XP2800 (Barton)

I did try several versions of the Catalyst AGP hot fix drivers, incase any body is curious.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

You should always keep the FSB:Memory rational at 1:1 for optimal performance. Also you never stated what speed your RAM is. In your case you will need DDR 333.

I'm also having a hard time understanding your current problem. You can't get your 2700+ or 2800+ to clock faster than 1.9 GHz on any configuration? Or is the 2700+ still your only problem?

And if you have time, do you think you can post some benchmark scores of the different video cards? I'm quite curious to see what the improvement is of an HD3850 over an X800. In my old rig, I have a 2400+ Mobile (Barton core) clocked at 2.0 GHz - I did have it at 2.3 GHz but I decided to reduce the voltage to prolong its life - and an X800GT. In Aquamark I get a score of 45000, so I'd like to see what kind of scores you get with an X800 and an HD3850.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
You should always keep the FSB:Memory rational at 1:1 for optimal performance. Also you never stated what speed your RAM is. In your case you will need DDR 333.

I'm also having a hard time understanding your current problem. You can't get your 2700+ or 2800+ to clock faster than 1.9 GHz on any configuration? Or is the 2700+ still your only problem?

And if you have time, do you think you can post some benchmark scores of the different video cards? I'm quite curious to see what the improvement is of an HD3850 over an X800. In my old rig, I have a 2400+ Mobile (Barton core) clocked at 2.0 GHz - I did have it at 2.3 GHz but I decided to reduce the voltage to prolong its life - and an X800GT. In Aquamark I get a score of 45000, so I'd like to see what kind of scores you get with an X800 and an HD3850.

The memory timings were given so that if somebody searches for help on a simular issue the information is there. I've been noticing when I Goggle for information on this problem this thread shows up in the Google search results.

Yes, neither the 2700+ or the 2800+ will go over 1.9GHz. Most people that I've found that have this problem are running Catalyst 8.1 or later and just take the FSB down to 133 MHz and don't look for the limit. Since the 2800+ has a lower multiplier it's FSB will go higher than the 2700+. I'm at 1.872 GHz (144 x 13) on the 2700+ and 1.875 GHz (150 x 12.5) on the 2800+, I gave myself 1 or 2 MHz cushion because of clock variations. Once, I disabled the external cache of the 2700+ (in the BIOS) and it ran at full speed (2.133 GHz) but the resulting test scores didn't make this an option.

I plan on posting the score changes for all three systems in the video card forum. I promised to have the 2700+ system delivered today so I have scores for it, the Barton is next. I put the scores for the 3800X2 upgrade in here, they are towards the end.

XP2700+ @ XP2100+ (1.733 GHz) speed with X800 AIW
3DMark2000 - 10112
3DMark2001 - 12797
3DMark03 - 9804
3DMark05 - 4912
3DMark06 - 1865

XP2700+ @ XP2100+ speed with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 10623
3DMark2001 - 14302
3DMark03 - 21065
3DMark05 - 5985
3DMark06 - 3830

XP2700+ @ 1.872 with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 11338
3DMark2001 - 15081
3DMark03 - 21848
3DMark05 - 6351
3DMark06 - 4034

XP2700+ @ 1.872 with HD3850 OD'd (709 core / 939 memory)
3DMark2000 - 11281
3DMark2001 - 14990
3DMark03 - 22207
3DMark05 - 6309
3DMark06 - 4067

It sure would have been nice if I could have gotten the 2700+ to run at full speed. The system could have used the extra CPU speed.

 

[evolucion8]

That CPU is holding back that videocard considerably, with my P4EE at 3.4GHz was able to score almost 5k in 3DMark06 with the HD 3850, the same score I obttained using the X1950XT AGP, considering that the Pentium 4 is not a gaming chip.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: Pederv
The memory timings were given so that if somebody searches for help on a simular issue the information is there. I've been noticing when I Goggle for information on this problem this thread shows up in the Google search results.

??? Nowhere in this thread do I see where you have made mention of your memory timings or the type of memory you actually have. Do you have DDR 266, DDR 333, or DDR 400?

You should also use a utlity, like CPU-Z, to monitor your system status. I would like to know what your Vcore (processor voltage) is, since it should be 1.65 for both chips.

But it is really strange that you are having this "problem" across multiple motherboards. This most likely means your processor isn't the source of the problem. And I just want to clarify, the only problem you've come across so far is that, when the processor is running at its stock frequency, 3D Mark likes to crash? Does anything else weird happen? Have you actually tried to play any games on the system? If everything else is stable then I would just forget about the 3DMark anomaly.

Also, are you using the latest drivers? Have you tried using older drivers than Cat 8.1? Newer drivers? Have you looked for 3DMark hotfixes?

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
??? Nowhere in this thread do I see where you have made mention of your memory timings or the type of memory you actually have. Do you have DDR 266, DDR 333, or DDR 400?

Sorry, I was in a hurry.
The 2800+ was in the NF7-S2G the whole time, it's been there for over a couple years. Both systems had 80mm fans on them so swapping CPU's would have been a pain. I had 2 GB of DDR400 in that system since I got the board because I was going to overclock the 2800+ but I got the wrong version of the board and the FSB was locked so I down clocked the memory and let the DIMM SPD's set the timing.

The 2700+ was in both the K7N2 and the 8RDA3+, it had 2GB of DDR333 with the timings set by the DIMM SPD's. Once I tried loosening the timings and I've rum Memtest86 on it twice for over 8 hours and no errors.

The SPD memory timings for both systems at default is 2.5-3-3-7.

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
You should also use a utlity, like CPU-Z, to monitor your system status. I would like to know what your Vcore (processor voltage) is, since it should be 1.65 for both chips.

As stated earlier I did monitor the 2700+ system with PCWizard. The 2700+ was defaulting at 1.6V and as stated earlier I increased it by 0.075 (up to 1.675V). I haven't gone into detail on the 2800+, yet, as I said the rush was on the 2700+ system.

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
But it is really strange that you are having this "problem" across multiple motherboards. This most likely means your processor isn't the source of the problem. And I just want to clarify, the only problem you've come across so far is that, when the processor is running at its stock frequency, 3D Mark likes to crash? Does anything else weird happen? Have you actually tried to play any games on the system? If everything else is stable then I would just forget about the 3DMark anomaly.

The only problem at stock speeds is the 3DMark tests, as said before the system is 2 days prime95 stable at stock speeds. Nothing that I've noticed is acting up at stock speeds except the 3DMarks. No I haven't actually tried playing a game, I figured that the games that I have are old enough that they would work anyway. The reason that it has to be 100% stable (or 99.999999%) is because the 2800+ system is going to be in LA, Calif and even though the 2700+ is going to be less than 20 miles away in north Seattle, Wash I don't have time to come running any time it crashes.

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
Also, are you using the latest drivers? Have you tried using older drivers than Cat 8.1? Newer drivers? Have you looked for 3DMark hotfixes?

I tried the drivers from the Sapphire CD first, then I tried the 8.10 AGP hotfix, then I tried the regular 8.10 drivers, then I tried older versions. I had already run the 3DMarks on the 2800+ system with the X800 AIW after installing drivers from the X800 AIW CD. There is a hotfix for 3DMark03 for PCI-E cards but as stated earlier this also happens on test 16 of 3DMark2001.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: pederv
I had already run the 3DMarks on the 2800+ system with the X800 AIW after installing drivers from the X800 AIW CD.

This isn't true. I thought that I had done this.

I dropped one of the X800 AIW's that I have into a different 2700+ system based on a KT333 chipset, same problem. The system had an 8500 AIW in it, the 8500 didn't support the tests in question so this is the first time I've tried the tests on the KT333 system.

 

[Pederv]

IT's the ATI drivers.
I can run the Catalyst 7.12 drivers with the file ati3duag.dll pulled from the Catalyst 7.7 drivers and inserted into the System32 folder. When I run the 7.12 drivers I can run the CPU at its default value.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Yeh it had to be the drivers. It's hard to believe you have the same problem across multiple processors, motherboards, and video cards, especially when you're running a 3D test using the same set of drivers. I'd say a reformat of Windows with a clean install of drivers would probably fix the problem, if you haven't already tried it. I have a system that is pretty close to yours (2400+, Epox 8RDA3I+, X800GT) and I never encountered any crashes in 3DMark when running at overclocked speeds. Although I will, tomorrow, update the drivers and run 3DMark03/05 on the rig, since I haven't ran those tests in a long time. I'll let you know how the run with the latest set of drivers under Windows XP Professional w/Service Pack 3.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
Yeh it had to be the drivers. It's hard to believe you have the same problem across multiple processors, motherboards, and video cards, especially when you're running a 3D test using the same set of drivers. I'd say a reformat of Windows with a clean install of drivers would probably fix the problem, if you haven't already tried it. I have a system that is pretty close to yours (2400+, Epox 8RDA3I+, X800GT) and I never encountered any crashes in 3DMark when running at overclocked speeds. Although I will, tomorrow, update the drivers and run 3DMark03/05 on the rig, since I haven't ran those tests in a long time. I'll let you know how the run with the latest set of drivers under Windows XP Professional w/Service Pack 3.

My friend with the Powercolor 3650 on the 8RDA3+ with the Barton 2800+ informed me that one of his son's games has been blue screening so he loaded the oldest driver he could find. He believes the driver was from that Catalyst 7 series and since doing so the game hasn't blue screened.

Good luck on your test. I think I know what's going to happen.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Here are some results. Using Catalyst released on 3-28-08* (should be 8.1 or 8.2), X800GT, Athlon XP 2400+, Windows XP Pro w/SP3.

3Dmark03 v.360 caused the system to reboot while it was loading test 2. I saw a blue screen flicker before the reboot, but it was not the normal blue screen of death.

3DMark05 v.120 ran perfectly fine.

3DMark06 also runs fine.

*Edit: Lol, I put 1998.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
Here are some results. Using Catalyst released on 3-28-98 (should be 8.1 or 8.2), X800GT, Athlon XP 2400+, Windows XP Pro w/SP3.

3Dmark03 v.360 caused the system to reboot while it was loading test 2. I saw a blue screen flicker before the reboot, but it was not the normal blue screen of death.

3DMark05 v.120 ran perfectly fine.

3DMark06 also runs fine.

3DMark Software:
2000 - V1.1 Build 340
2001SE Build 330
2003 - 3.6.0
2005 - 1.3.0
2006 - 1.1.0

Applied patch for versions 2003, 2005, 2006

At CPU default (Barton 2800+ 2.083 GHz) on Abit NFS-2SG with WinXP SP2 and Catalyst 8.10

2000 - passes
2001SE - system blue screens just as test 16 is about to start
2003 - system blue screens just as test 2 starts
2005 - system blue screens after baloon ship/ sea monster has started
2006 - system blue screens after baloon ship/ sea monster has started

XP2800+ @ default (2.083GHz) modified Catalyst 7.12 with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 12569
3DMark2001 - 17447
3DMark03 - 21787
3DMark05 - 7373
3DMark06 - 4673

XP2800+ @ default (2.083GHz) modified Catalyst 7.12 with X800 AIW
3DMark2000 - 12308
3DMark2001 - 13890
3DMark03 - 5502
3DMark05 - 4451
3DMark06 - 1515

XP2800+ @ 1.875GHz Catalyst 8.10 with X800 AIW
3DMark2000 - 11601
3DMark2001 - 14070
3DMark03 - 10050
3DMark05 - 5301
3DMark06 - 1880

XP2800+ @ 1.875GHz Catalyst 8.10 with HD3850
3DMark2000 - 11661
3DMark2001 - 15870
3DMark03 - 22833
3DMark05 - 6776
3DMark06 - 4296

I'm about tested out (so is my wife).
If I were keeping these systems at home then I'd run the CPU's at thier defaults and wait until something failed. These systems have to be able to handle any game without crashing, granted some games may look like a slide show but they shouldn't crash.
Since the purpose of dropping these 3850's into these socket A boards was to squeeze as much performance out of them as possible, it looks like I'm going with the modified Catalyst 7.12 drivers.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Precaution is good, but software conflicts will happen all the time.

 

[Pederv]

I submitted a trouble report with Sapphire, maybe I'll get lucky and they'll have a fix.

I've decided to go with under-clocking the CPU and using the latest Catalyst drivers, incase the kids try playing games that the Catalyst 8 series has patches for.

Thanks cusideabelincoln for taking the time to test my problem on one of your own systems.

 

[Arkaign]

Pederv, you could probably keep an eye out and pick up a NF3 + Socket 754 AMD64 AGP mobo/cpu at some point for dirt cheap, that would make for a truly epic upgrade.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Pederv, you could probably keep an eye out and pick up a NF3 + Socket 754 AMD64 AGP mobo/cpu at some point for dirt cheap, that would make for a truly epic upgrade.

Thanks for the suggestion Arkaign, but the whole purpose of what I'm doing is to put some old systems that I have laying around to use.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Pederv

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Pederv, you could probably keep an eye out and pick up a NF3 + Socket 754 AMD64 AGP mobo/cpu at some point for dirt cheap, that would make for a truly epic upgrade.

Thanks for the suggestion Arkaign, but the whole purpose of what I'm doing is to put some old systems that I have laying around to use.

True, and that's far better than letting them collect dust.

That said, if you're willing to screw with the hassle of buying some used (but more capable) hardware, doing the upgrades, and so on, you could probably sell the 2700+ and NF2 for some decent $$. Might even just toss an old hdd/dvd in a used case, and sell the box at a garage sale for $75 or so with a CRT. I do this every once in a while, and it's a great way to clear out old (but still capable) hardware.

 

[Pederv]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
That said, if you're willing to screw with the hassle of buying some used (but more capable) hardware, doing the upgrades, and so on, you could probably sell the 2700+ and NF2 for some decent $$. Might even just toss an old hdd/dvd in a used case, and sell the box at a garage sale for $75 or so with a CRT. I do this every once in a while, and it's a great way to clear out old (but still capable) hardware.

Of the systems I mention in this thread:

the 3800 X2 is my daughters
the 2700 has already been delivered to my sisters son
the 2800 will be delivered to my youngest brothers sons come Christmas

I still need to check out a 1 GHz Athlon system for my wifes - cousins - daughter so that she doesn't have to hang out at the library, after dark, to do her homework. I had sent a 1 GHz P3 but it got killed during shipping.

I'm not making any money on the systems, but I have enough family to unload my old stuff on that I don't have to pay for hazardous waste disposal.