AMD vs Intel dual cores?

[allies]

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All these machos that show off their sig @ 3.4 GHz are the same characters with small penis that buys corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar. But all they do drive around the block once every other day all pumped up. This penis short of 3 inch?s big machos will buy a 16 cylinder car because it makes them feel bigger. Have you noticed the kind of pants they wear? Don?t all look alike?
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. Those who play games know that a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card all it takes to enjoy playing games without worrying about the temp or frying the machine. These guys never run their machine @ 3.4GHZ because they are show off wimps. C2D will not survive one game @ 3.4GHZ without crashing or frying . Don?t believe it. Those who have will come here and complain about the Ram, PSU, or Motherboard causing the kill. I sure like to see how these short of 3 inch wimps play games @ 3.4 GHz. I can almost see them sweating their panties when CoreTemp shows >60c.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these short of 3 inch wimps. Buy yourself a nice x2 AM2 setup and get ready for K8L. These phony wimps already yellowed their panties hearing K8L's killing performance.

Man... did you upgrade to AM2 a week before Core2 came out? While I agree with you that not everyone with C2D reaches 3.4 GHz, many, many, many run stably at 3.0GHz+ speeds. Even in games.

It seems you're praying for the K8L to be amazing. I hope it is better than the C2D, and anything else intel has out at the time, so you can cease making yourself look silly.

Also, you shouldn't be jealous that some people can afford nice cars

 

[OcHungry]

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All those show off's claiming stellar (=> 3.4 GHz) remind me of those self loved who buy corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar to compensate their short penis. They just drive around the block once in a while to just pumped themselves up and make them feel bigger. Why would they buy a 16 cylinders car and drive 55 is beyond me.
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. There is no denying that C2D is a great chip and beats AMD. But why would anyone want to OC it to 3.4 GHz when 2.7 GHz is more than enough for everything out there? Not only that, why do these people insist upon 3.4 GHz as the norm for this chip? Only a few were able to reach that speed but w/ top $$ components. Not everyone is interested in spending twice as much so to bench to show off. Those who play games know a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card will do just fine without any fps penalty. Do you enjoy playing games in one hand but worry about Temp and instability on the other? It does not make sense.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these wimps. Buy yourself a niceX2 AM2 (or C2D but don?t expect 3.4 GHz) enjoy the machine and keep your sanity. You can buy a good AM2 system reasonably priced and be ready for k8L, is what I would recommend. Don?t believe you can overclock that C2D to 3.4 GHz and know that good vid card is more important than that extra 100-300 MHz overclock.

Man... did you upgrade to AM2 a week before Core2 came out? While I agree with you that not everyone with C2D reaches 3.4 GHz, many, many, many run stably at 3.0GHz+ speeds. Even in games.

It seems you're praying for the K8L to be amazing. I hope it is better than the C2D, and anything else intel has out at the time, so you can cease making yourself look silly.

Also, you shouldn't be jealous that some people can afford nice cars

I am neither jealous nor praying for K8L as such. As long as my name gets involved in your poo conversation I will reply w/ full force. I have a great setup that does much better than 90% of you, but don?t gloat all over the net for it. Keep off my name if you don?t want to hear from me. As simple as that.

 

[allies]

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All these machos that show off their sig @ 3.4 GHz are the same characters with small penis that buys corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar. But all they do drive around the block once every other day all pumped up. This penis short of 3 inch?s big machos will buy a 16 cylinder car because it makes them feel bigger. Have you noticed the kind of pants they wear? Don?t all look alike?
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. Those who play games know that a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card all it takes to enjoy playing games without worrying about the temp or frying the machine. These guys never run their machine @ 3.4GHZ because they are show off wimps. C2D will not survive one game @ 3.4GHZ without crashing or frying . Don?t believe it. Those who have will come here and complain about the Ram, PSU, or Motherboard causing the kill. I sure like to see how these short of 3 inch wimps play games @ 3.4 GHz. I can almost see them sweating their panties when CoreTemp shows >60c.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these short of 3 inch wimps. Buy yourself a nice x2 AM2 setup and get ready for K8L. These phony wimps already yellowed their panties hearing K8L's killing performance.

Man... did you upgrade to AM2 a week before Core2 came out? While I agree with you that not everyone with C2D reaches 3.4 GHz, many, many, many run stably at 3.0GHz+ speeds. Even in games.

It seems you're praying for the K8L to be amazing. I hope it is better than the C2D, and anything else intel has out at the time, so you can cease making yourself look silly.

Also, you shouldn't be jealous that some people can afford nice cars

I am neither jealous nor praying for K8L as such. As long as my name gets involved in your poo conversation I will reply w/ full force. I have a great setup that does much better than 90% of you, but don?t gloat all over the net for it. Keep off my name if you don?t want to hear from me. As simple as that.

WTH are you talking about. You make no sense. BTW, a Core2Duo can be clocked 20% lower than an X2, and still beat it in any benchmark.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All these machos that show off their sig @ 3.4 GHz are the same characters with small penis that buys corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar. But all they do drive around the block once every other day all pumped up. This penis short of 3 inch?s big machos will buy a 16 cylinder car because it makes them feel bigger. Have you noticed the kind of pants they wear? Don?t all look alike?
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. Those who play games know that a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card all it takes to enjoy playing games without worrying about the temp or frying the machine. These guys never run their machine @ 3.4GHZ because they are show off wimps. C2D will not survive one game @ 3.4GHZ without crashing or frying . Don?t believe it. Those who have will come here and complain about the Ram, PSU, or Motherboard causing the kill. I sure like to see how these short of 3 inch wimps play games @ 3.4 GHz. I can almost see them sweating their panties when CoreTemp shows >60c.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these short of 3 inch wimps. Buy yourself a nice x2 AM2 setup and get ready for K8L. These phony wimps already yellowed their panties hearing K8L's killing performance.

I see the troll is back. I run my 3 C2D's at 3.4 all day, every day 24/7 and have no problems, and they are twice as fast as mt X2's @ 2.5 doing F@H units. And so what if the core temps are over 60c... (65) Using the same software as my X2's they show as being cooler than an X2. Coretemp is a different animal.

And K8L may be good, but right now I don;t care....

 

[n7]

Wow.

How is OCIdiot not banned yet?

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: n7
Wow.

How is OCIdiot not banned yet?

Contact a mod. I did before, and they didn;t ban him, maybe they will listen to you.

 

[lopri]

I haven't seen anyone being banned for having an opinion. (well, opinions that abide by the forum rules. ) Besides, although incorrect (and undoubtedly biased), there is a small truth in OCHungry's argument - motherboard (or chipset) support for Core 2 Duo has been less than spectacular so far. I've been through quite a few boards for Core 2 Duo, and to this point there hasn't been ONE board that gave me the solid, configurable, predictable, durable feel that DFI LanParty NF4 boards give. I am not sure if it's that the quality of IMC in A64 CPUs is that much better than memory controllers in 975X/P965/680i, or it's just DFI's expertise in this business, but it's still a mystery to me.

Admittedly I'm always ambitious when it comes to overclocking and we all know that C2D doesn't even need to be overclocked to beat A64. But as an enthusiast who has many experiences with modern CPU/chipsets (and tries to push the envelope further), I (sort of) learned to know whether I am doing something wrong or a component is flaky when the system's behavior becomes erratic. I consider the 975X chipset being most stable/mature platform for C2D currently, but even the motherboards based on that chipset don't seem to be as solid as DFI LP NF4 series.

On a 2nd note, we all know that when it comes to performance, CPU >>>> Memory, and no ammount of OC'ing will allow A64 to overcome the architectural inferiority. The performance of Core 2 Duo is simplay fascinating. But then again, do you really need that much performance? My main rig is still based on a single-core A64 CPU and I have not experienced any performance related issue yet. I understand this highly depends on a individual's usage and reliance on performance, but, to be frank, overall my impression on the forum is it's more often than not a pissing match which deviates far away from orginal posts.

Last, but most impotantly, I do not understand why some folks are so obssessed on ONE forum member, to the point of calling on him in threads where he was not even previously involved. Honestly that is why I'm writing this post right now. (As a matter of fact I've seen several threads involving this 'ban him' issue) Whlie I agree with many of you in that OCHungry's views are severely flawed and biased, that doesn't justify a collective 'bully' on him. Often times what I see is a guy who tries to 'prove' his theory (with poor evidences) and majority forummers calling names on him, ridiculing him, or getting worked up on their own.

We can all agree to disagree, can't we?

 

[OcHungry]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

. And so what if the core temps are over 60c... (65) Using the same software as my X2's they show as being cooler than an X2. Coretemp is a different animal.

....

Only fools will believe that.

Edit: What more pathetic is that pathological liar will never catch himself.
You claimed you didn?t know what "CoreTemp" was, yet here you sound so familiar w/ it?

 

[OcHungry]

Originally posted by: n7
Wow.

How is OCIdiot not banned yet?

Are calling me an idiot?
how about I have the mod ban you mr. lifer?

 

[Sniper82]

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All these machos that show off their sig @ 3.4 GHz are the same characters with small penis that buys corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar. But all they do drive around the block once every other day all pumped up. This penis short of 3 inch?s big machos will buy a 16 cylinder car because it makes them feel bigger. Have you noticed the kind of pants they wear? Don?t all look alike?
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. Those who play games know that a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card all it takes to enjoy playing games without worrying about the temp or frying the machine. These guys never run their machine @ 3.4GHZ because they are show off wimps. C2D will not survive one game @ 3.4GHZ without crashing or frying . Don?t believe it. Those who have will come here and complain about the Ram, PSU, or Motherboard causing the kill. I sure like to see how these short of 3 inch wimps play games @ 3.4 GHz. I can almost see them sweating their panties when CoreTemp shows >60c.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these short of 3 inch wimps. Buy yourself a nice x2 AM2 setup and get ready for K8L. These phony wimps already yellowed their panties hearing K8L's killing performance.

Man... did you upgrade to AM2 a week before Core2 came out? While I agree with you that not everyone with C2D reaches 3.4 GHz, many, many, many run stably at 3.0GHz+ speeds. Even in games.

It seems you're praying for the K8L to be amazing. I hope it is better than the C2D, and anything else intel has out at the time, so you can cease making yourself look silly.

Also, you shouldn't be jealous that some people can afford nice cars

I have a great setup that does much better than 90% of you, but don?t gloat all over the net for it. Keep off my name if you don?t want to hear from me. As simple as that.

90% of the ppl on anandtech forums or just this thread? Am just curious as thats a high percentage. I'd like to know what your setup is exactly .

 

[OcHungry]

Originally posted by: Sniper82

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All those show off's claiming stellar (=> 3.4 GHz) remind me of those self loved who buy corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar to compensate their short penis. They just drive around the block once in a while to just pumped themselves up and make them feel bigger. Why would they buy a 16 cylinders car and drive 55 is beyond me.
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. There is no denying that C2D is a great chip and beats AMD. But why would anyone want to OC it to 3.4 GHz when 2.7 GHz is more than enough for everything out there? Not only that, why do these people insist upon 3.4 GHz as the norm for this chip? Only a few were able to reach that speed but w/ top $$ components. Not everyone is interested in spending twice as much so to bench to show off. Those who play games know a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card will do just fine without any fps penalty. Do you enjoy playing games in one hand but worry about Temp and instability on the other? It does not make sense.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these wimps. Buy yourself a niceX2 AM2 (or C2D but don?t expect 3.4 GHz) enjoy the machine and keep your sanity. You can buy a good AM2 system reasonably priced and be ready for k8L, is what I would recommend. Don?t believe you can overclock that C2D to 3.4 GHz and know that good vid card is more important than that extra 100-300 MHz overclock.

Man... did you upgrade to AM2 a week before Core2 came out? While I agree with you that not everyone with C2D reaches 3.4 GHz, many, many, many run stably at 3.0GHz+ speeds. Even in games.

It seems you're praying for the K8L to be amazing. I hope it is better than the C2D, and anything else intel has out at the time, so you can cease making yourself look silly.

Also, you shouldn't be jealous that some people can afford nice cars

I have a great setup that does much better than 90% of you, but don?t gloat all over the net for it. Keep off my name if you don?t want to hear from me. As simple as that.

90% of the ppl on anandtech forums or just this thread? Am just curious as thats a high percentage. I'd like to know what your setup is exactly .

As said I dont gloat and I rather leave it at that.
But just to prove I am not making things up:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6416/12202006071220ro5.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4782/12202006030000xd6.jpg
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6056/11212006183814pv8.jpg
@ 3.1GHZ
(modded Rosewell) Heatpipe

 

[coldpower27]

In terms of computational processing power his OcHungry's CPU is probably comparable in it's current configuration, to a Core 2 Duo E6600 at stock freqencies or a mildly overclocked E6300/E6400.

In terms of graphics processing power his GPU in it's current configuration is almost to the level of the Geforce 7800 GT, or Radeon X1800 XL, so it's comparable to an overclocked Radeon X1800 GTO or Radeon X1650 XT.

I will leave it up to you to determine where he ranks in relation to the "majority" of Anandtech forum users.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: n7
Wow.

How is OCIdiot not banned yet?

Are calling me an idiot?
how about I have the mod ban you mr. lifer?

Please go to a forum where they will appreciate you. You are not wanted here.

Originally posted by: Rottie


do you want to challenge me with PCmarks 2005?

On the off chance that you are not an alternate account for OCHungry, I honsetly hope someone with an OCed Core 2 chip does challenge you with "PCmarks 2005", or perhaps with some other more-relevant benchmark of performance.

X2s are slower in everything except for some odd encryption tasks that have only been covered in Opteron/Woodcrest benchmarks.

 

[Rottie]

Originally posted by: DrMrLordX

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: n7
Wow.

How is OCIdiot not banned yet?

Are calling me an idiot?
how about I have the mod ban you mr. lifer?

Please go to a forum where they will appreciate you. You are not wanted here.

Originally posted by: Rottie


do you want to challenge me with PCmarks 2005?

On the off chance that you are not an alternate account for OCHungry, I honsetly hope someone with an OCed Core 2 chip does challenge you with "PCmarks 2005", or perhaps with some other more-relevant benchmark of performance.

X2s are slower in everything except for some odd encryption tasks that have only been covered in Opteron/Woodcrest benchmarks.

no I am not using alternate account. Trust me I am your friend

 

[Markfw]

Rottie. I downloaded pcmark2005, but it won't run squat unless I buy it. I am not buying it to prove anything. got a free benchmark you want to challenge me with? Mt 6300@3.5 will leave your 4800 begging for mercy... I have a 4400@2.5, and an Opteon 170@ 2.5, so I know of what I speak... Let the games begin. Link me a fr4ee download, and I will run whatever you want. Including screenshots.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Rottie

Originally posted by: Duvie

Originally posted by: Rottie

Originally posted by: harpoon84

Originally posted by: Rottie
dang I thought my AMD x2 4800+ whipped Core 2 Duo

You never bothered to read a C2D review? Talk about living under a rock.

I did read the reviews but i don't believe them I always trust my x2 4800+ is FASTEST than all

He is obviously pulling your chains...No one can be that stupid, and assume a mass conspiracy by all reviwers that are in near unamious concensus that C2D is clearly beyond the X2...

As N7 copnservatively put it...your X2 4800+ is somewhere in the middle of intels 180 and 213 dollar chips....Your 4800+ if you are lucky may OC 15-20%...Standard E6300-E6400's OC 50 to near 100%....see that thing getting smaller in the rear view mirror? It is your X2 behind the C2D's of most users in this forum.

do you want to challenge me with PCmarks 2005?

According to these...How do you think you are going to compete?

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=430&model2=464&chart=171
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=430&model2=464&chart=172

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1970191,00.asp

http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=832&cid=1

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2014651,00.asp

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/cpu/article.php/3261_3620036__3

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34518

http://hardware.gotfrag.com/portal/story/33492/?spage=7

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/cpu/article.php/3261_3641516__3


Why are things such a big secret for you? Seems like me running them would be a waste, it is pretty celar what a 3.2ghz conroe would do to a 2.4ghz X2

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: Sniper82

Originally posted by: OcHungry

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: OcHungry
I see my name is mentioned here.
Ok let me put it to you simply: All those show off's claiming stellar (=> 3.4 GHz) remind me of those self loved who buy corvette, Lamborghini or jaguar to compensate their short penis. They just drive around the block once in a while to just pumped themselves up and make them feel bigger. Why would they buy a 16 cylinders car and drive 55 is beyond me.
The point is- C2D is only a few percentage better performers in some benchmarks that aren?t really important. There is no denying that C2D is a great chip and beats AMD. But why would anyone want to OC it to 3.4 GHz when 2.7 GHz is more than enough for everything out there? Not only that, why do these people insist upon 3.4 GHz as the norm for this chip? Only a few were able to reach that speed but w/ top $$ components. Not everyone is interested in spending twice as much so to bench to show off. Those who play games know a 2.7 GHz AMD and a good vid card will do just fine without any fps penalty. Do you enjoy playing games in one hand but worry about Temp and instability on the other? It does not make sense.
Be practical and don?t be fooled by these wimps. Buy yourself a niceX2 AM2 (or C2D but don?t expect 3.4 GHz) enjoy the machine and keep your sanity. You can buy a good AM2 system reasonably priced and be ready for k8L, is what I would recommend. Don?t believe you can overclock that C2D to 3.4 GHz and know that good vid card is more important than that extra 100-300 MHz overclock.

Man... did you upgrade to AM2 a week before Core2 came out? While I agree with you that not everyone with C2D reaches 3.4 GHz, many, many, many run stably at 3.0GHz+ speeds. Even in games.

It seems you're praying for the K8L to be amazing. I hope it is better than the C2D, and anything else intel has out at the time, so you can cease making yourself look silly.

Also, you shouldn't be jealous that some people can afford nice cars

I have a great setup that does much better than 90% of you, but don?t gloat all over the net for it. Keep off my name if you don?t want to hear from me. As simple as that.

90% of the ppl on anandtech forums or just this thread? Am just curious as thats a high percentage. I'd like to know what your setup is exactly .

As said I dont gloat and I rather leave it at that.
But just to prove I am not making things up:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6416/12202006071220ro5.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4782/12202006030000xd6.jpg
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6056/11212006183814pv8.jpg
@ 3.1GHZ
(modded Rosewell) Heatpipe

*yawn* click me I thought you gave up long ago

 

[Markfw]

16 04 for 32m superpi

OK OChungry, you do it in 26 06 (the only benchmark linked here) and I just did it in 16 04. I think that kind of blows your 3 ghz X2 out of the water... Want more benches ? bring it on...

Give it up, I love the X2, but they can't hold a candle to the C2D.

Oh, and in case you noticed, I was running 2 X F@H at the same time.....

 

[amenx]

Thoughts of another long term AMD user after 'painful' switch to Intel.

 

[cmdrdredd]

SuperPi on my C2D

 

[Dadofamunky]

Core 2 Duals rule, everyone knows that. It's just not even disputable. I love my X2 system, which I am in the process of doing some judicious upgrades on, but if I was doing a new build it would absolutely be an E6600 or its equivalent. Those things overclock like snot and are a great value. For now, I've very happy with my machine. Heck no one at work even HAS a c2d desktop yet, and these are all hardcore engineers in the networking industry.

Someone above made a good point - getting a stable solid motherboard has got to be a critical thing.

Duvie and Mark know what they're talking about. I wouldn't ever challenge them on something like that. I tease them once in awhile maybe since they spend ungodly green on their rigs, but you'd better have good information or they'll shred ya.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: hyrum
Looking at the following processors:

AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 4200+ 2.2GHz
Intel Core? 2 Duo Processor E6400 2.13GHz
Intel Core? 2 Duo Processor E6600 2.4GHz

Obviously the 2.4 Intel is faster than the 2.13 but how does the AMD dual core processors stack up against the Intel ones? Would I be better off with one or the other or are they comparable?

And of course poor Hyrum has had his thread hijacked. Welcome to the lion's den.

To directly answer your question, just buy a c2d E6600 and be done with it. Apparently they're going down in price soon too! You cannot beat the value. Any c2d is worth it. Don't even think about anything else at this point.

 

[Hulk]

2.7GHz is not enough for me. My current 3.2GHz of C2D, which is quite a bit faster than 2.7GHz worth of AMD, is still not enough for me.

When I'm waiting on a video render or previewing an edit at 12fps instead of 29.97fps I'm constanty wishing for a faster CPU.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: n7
Rough order of performance best to worst for most common current dual cores (please check out the reviews here & elsewhere to verify)

C2D X6800
C2D E6700
C2D E6600
A64 FX-62
A64 FX-60/A64 X2 5200+
C2D E6400/A64 X2 5000+
A64 X2 4800+
C2D E6300/X2 4600+
X2 4400+
X2 4200+
X2 3800+
Basically all Pentium Ds

My brothers P4D at 4.3ghz will pwn my AMD X2 at 2.8ghz.. :X

Most P4D's can push 3.6+ provided its the presler core. Well the last 4 i was playing with 3 went past 4.0ghz and 1 capped at 3.93ghz. And yeah at 4.3ghz it will seriously pwn my X2 at 2.8ghz.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: n7
Rough order of performance best to worst for most common current dual cores (please check out the reviews here & elsewhere to verify)

C2D X6800
C2D E6700
C2D E6600
A64 FX-62
A64 FX-60/A64 X2 5200+
C2D E6400/A64 X2 5000+
A64 X2 4800+
C2D E6300/X2 4600+
X2 4400+
X2 4200+
X2 3800+
Basically all Pentium Ds

My brothers P4D at 4.3ghz will pwn my AMD X2 at 2.8ghz.. :X

Most P4D's can push 3.6+ provided its the presler core. Well the last 4 i was playing with 3 went past 4.0ghz and 1 capped at 3.93ghz. And yeah at 4.3ghz it will seriously pwn my X2 at 2.8ghz.

Well, I don't know what you are smoking either. My X2 @ 2.6 blows my old Pentiumd away so bad, I calculated it would take at least 4.3 (which is very hard to do, as in at least watercooling). At 2.8 the X2 should win easily. And my E6300@3.43 smoke all my poor X2's so bad it not funny.