Article "AMD vs. Intel CPU Market Share Q4 2019: EPYC and Ryzen Growth Decelerate, Mobile Ryzen Up" - Tom's

[Topweasel]

But would they "rule" as much if everything 7nm-based was 30% more expensive?
Intel's CPUs aren't bad. They're just slightly behind technologically at this point. They still work and do all the stuff we ask them to do.

Having a "good product" is actually the problem AMD is facing. A "good product" has to be attractive to distributors, stores and OEMs/agents if necessary. It has to be well known among the target consumer group.
For now AMD has a very well performing product (with very good value for the consumer). I wouldn't go further.

I get this point and brought it up a couple of times in the Ryzen 4k mobile thread awhile back. AMD needs more "killer cpu's". AMD can win on price vs performance and the 3900 and 3950 are moves in the right direction. But for the same reason Threadripper is a niche product, as much as people are better off in value getting those over 9900K. The people that use that value would be few and far between. The cross section for people willing to spend that money on the CPU, that don't value gaming more than having the extra cores even with the small difference in gaming between them and the 9900k is rather small. Threadripper due to its configuration is while supperior in all ways from X299 and even super high core xeon W CPU's. The price structure is super restrictive, going into rather expensive and just increasing from there.

CPU's like the 4800U is what AMD has needed. That is a killer CPU, one that Intel doesn't have a real solution to and won't till they get to 7nm. 14nm just isn't going to let them get a CPU with any really clocks, with that many cores that low, and intels 10nm, besides yields, isn't going to let them get the upper end clocks up as high. Now AMD will have a CPU that just doesn't have a competitor, in a market where it can sell because the demand will be there. One that begs for a real premium product to be installed into. If those sells like they should, doors will fly open, and OEM's who would already be working with AMD would be more willing to stick their necks out for AMD in other product lines.

 

[moinmoin]

I don't get why people can like/hate companies so much so spew such nonsense. Thankfully there's way more out there that are truthful and hopefully buyers figure out the bias.

Is that really directed at specific companies? The odd thing is, the example of an attack only works with Intel's 14nm in the back, even Intel's 10nm doesn't fulfill the expectations laid out. If such people are real (and not shills) they are bound to be frustrated with the "process" in the market regardless of the manufacturer.

 

[Atari2600]

This thread saved me the search for previous similar one because I have something I have said often already



True. Just go to an OEM site and see what they offer. More on that later.



In company I work for it's much more than 3 years. I have access to a Virtual machine on a server to do some compute (CPU) and long running stuff. That server runs a broadwell based Xeon.

This brings me right to the next point. Since they also run more important stuff on that server and me gobling up lots of CPU irregularly for hours lead to them reducing the cores for this VM from 8 to 4. 8 Wasn't great already but 4 is a joke so we started discussion for new hardware for my needs. And there is so much red tape and cluelessness it's infuriating.
I speced out a reasonable 32-core TR workstation which would cost around $8000 (with expensive GPU for deep learning). But no, can't do that because it's not standard and non-standard hardware can't be connected to the network (which is mandatory for accessing the data). hence it must be a server of a specific type from either of 2 big OEMs. The guy getting quotes has 0, absolutely 0 clue about hardware. Shocking. he said the only standard-compliant server with GPU they can offer would be a dual 28-core xeon platinum (sic) and you can only buy them in 2 nodes. He didn't mention a price but that thing would probably cost around 100k, is in some way completely overpowered but still slower in single-thread workloads. Discussion isn't finished but this is what AMD is competing with. Just having a good CPU at a good price doesn't mean all that much. This stuff can't be made up. BTW cloud is not an option because company policy also prohibit any kind of sensitive data to leave the company network.

There are reputable workstation and server builders who will supply TR or EYPC - as blades or boxes.

In the UK, there are armari & broadberry to name two.

 

[beginner99]

No offense, but you really think a company will let you use a DIY desktop?

joke is on you. I never said DIY. I said i made the specs. Then I got a quote from a known supplier for such a workstation including warranty and on site support. Nothing DIY which I was your own interpretation.

You're pretty harsh on your collegues/managers for knowing little about PC hardware (which, I'd imagine, is not their job), but the joke is on you.

if your a buying servers and managing infrastructures you should at least have basic knowledge? Like that there is intel and AMD? And NV and AMD for gpus? maybe I'm too demanding but they fact that this knowledge is lacking is the case that people actually buy xeon platinums.

 

[beginner99]

There are reputable workstation and server builders who will supply TR or EYPC - as blades or boxes.

In the UK, there are armari & broadberry to name two.

Read my post. Anything not from the 2 big oems is not standards compliant. because that is exactly what I did.

 

[piokos]

joke is on you. I never said DIY. I said i made the specs. Then I got a quote from a known supplier for such a workstation including warranty and on site support. Nothing DIY which I was your own interpretation.

If it's not a supplier that your company works with, it's as good as DIY for them.
Seriously, you've shown them your needs, they suggested you a dual Xeon WS. Just take it. Pfff.

if your a buying servers and managing infrastructures you should at least have basic knowledge? Like that there is intel and AMD?

Intel has 95% share of x86 servers and likely more in workstations. Over the last few years it was near 100%.
All OEMs offer Intel-based systems in all segments. Some OEMs offer AMD-based systems in some segments.

But more importantly, if your company is anything like most large corporations, it's not your job to say what parts you need (if there are equally functional alternatives). And it's not even a job of the guy from your company you talked to.
It's a standard procedure. You say what you need (functionally, not choosing components). The other guy sends the request to vendors and they offer what they want/have.
And yes, suppliers will offer the stuff that they can make the most on.

Of course you may be able to convince your managers to buy AMD, but what's the point? They want to give you a similar system.
1st world problems...

 

[beginner99]

Of course you may be able to convince your managers to buy AMD, but what's the point? They want to give you a similar system.

It's not similar at all especially not price-wise. Why does it matter? because then the money needs to be saved elsewhere meaning you loose something for not gaining anything. it's called budgeting.

 

[tamz_msc]

If it's not a supplier that your company works with, it's as good as DIY for them.
Seriously, you've shown them your needs, they suggested you a dual Xeon WS. Just take it. Pfff.

Intel has 95% share of x86 servers and likely more in workstations. Over the last few years it was near 100%.
All OEMs offer Intel-based systems in all segments. Some OEMs offer AMD-based systems in some segments.

But more importantly, if your company is anything like most large corporations, it's not your job to say what parts you need (if there are equally functional alternatives). And it's not even a job of the guy from your company you talked to.
It's a standard procedure. You say what you need (functionally, not choosing components). The other guy sends the request to vendors and they offer what they want/have.
And yes, suppliers will offer the stuff that they can make the most on.

Of course you may be able to convince your managers to buy AMD, but what's the point? They want to give you a similar system.
1st world problems...

This is why AMD will continue being a laggard when in comes to increasing server and workstation market share, but they need to grow in revenue and chase after those fat margins. But then the 30% growth forecast for 2020 probably means that they plan to play second-fiddle to Intel in this space, no matter the hype surrounding Epyc. The fact that there is no equivalent to Xeon E and W tells it all really.

 

[moinmoin]

The fact that there is no equivalent to Xeon E and W tells it all really.

There is, they are called Ryzen Pro and Threadripper respectively fully fill those areas. Consumers and OEMs apparently are just too used to Intel style segmentation that they can't see any functional equivalence anymore. Excellent marketing work by Intel.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I wish I had a way to find out what they are doing now, but since the phone is virtually useless to me(being deaf), I can't call my friends in the DBA group that knew everything that was going on in the datacenters.

Assuming your friends don't have smartphones (text them), have you looked into TTY?

About TTY - What is a TTY?

It's kind of old-school.

AMD has no hope of substantially increasing their server market share when it has billions of dollars of Intel marketing development fund to contend with.

Intel is burning cash like mad on all kinds of different projects/operations. Including stock buybacks. Those fat profits aren't going to last forever. If you think Rome is causing them problems, Milan is going to be even worse for Intel. The bigger the performance/TCO gap, the bigger the kickbacks have to be . . .

 

[Markfw]

Assuming your friends don't have smartphones (text them), have you looked into TTY?

About TTY - What is a TTY?

It's kind of old-school.



Intel is burning cash like mad on all kinds of different projects/operations. Including stock buybacks. Those fat profits aren't going to last forever. If you think Rome is causing them problems, Milan is going to be even worse for Intel. The bigger the performance/TCO gap, the bigger the kickbacks have to be . . .

I have a TTY phone. But either people hang up on me, or they don't like to talk to be due to the delay,

 

[Atari2600]

Read my post. Anything not from the 2 big oems is not standards compliant. because that is exactly what I did.

Whose standards?

I don't know where you are, but they won't be any standards coming from the MOD (which is about as sensitive as you get in the UK).

I would expect the US DoD is no different.


If its just some bull internal company standards, push back.

 

[tamz_msc]

There is, they are called Ryzen Pro and Threadripper respectively fully fill those areas. Consumers and OEMs apparently are just too used to Intel style segmentation that they can't see any functional equivalence anymore. Excellent marketing work by Intel.

They barely exist in systems compared to their equivalents from Intel.

 

[moinmoin]

They barely exist in systems compared to their equivalents from Intel.

That's the problem indeed. But not a problem AMD can solve by copying Intel's segmentation.

AMD needs perseverance now. In the laptop market this is already slowly paying off right now. The corporate server and workstation markets are even slower, they need more employees of @beginner99's kind for it to pick up speed and put pressure on the big OEMs to include more modern products.

 

[beginner99]

Whose standards?

the company ones. I mean I get it to a certain extend. You don't want to train your people on 100 different types of servers. But on the other hand some flexibility should be possible.

 

[prtskg]

That's the problem indeed. But not a problem AMD can solve by copying Intel's segmentation.

AMD needs perseverance now. In the laptop market this is already slowly paying off right now. The corporate server and workstation markets are even slower, they need more employees of @beginner99's kind for it to pick up speed and put pressure on the big OEMs to include more modern products.

Perseverance is the key. As they say 'Rome' wasn't built in a day. AMD's share is growing at the rate of around 3% per year in x86 market. They just have to keep up with Intel and not make any bulldozer mistakes. All will be well then.

 

[Atari2600]

the company ones. I mean I get it to a certain extend. You don't want to train your people on 100 different types of servers. But on the other hand some flexibility should be possible.

Train them on "types" of server?!?!

WTgenuineF?!?

The software stack is the software stack. It is hyper unlikely they are running S/W supplied by the hardware OEM that they cannot get better elsewhere for less!

Now, qualification I could understand - but that is just lazy on the company's part and their IT department (or execs that believe they are making a saving) deserve to be embarrassed because of it.

 

[Atari2600]

Assuming Dell or HP are one of your two OEMs, then they do EYPC blades - which might be a bit less scary for your risk averse IT idiot chief.

https://www.amd.com/en/campaigns/amd-and-dell

https://www.amd.com/en/campaigns/amd-and-hpe

Spec it with the EYPC 7371 for higher clocks than the server average (3.8 GHz max ST).

 

[Markfw]

Assuming Dell or HP are one of your two OEMs, then they do EYPC blades - which might be a bit less scary for your risk averse IT idiot chief.

https://www.amd.com/en/campaigns/amd-and-dell

https://www.amd.com/en/campaigns/amd-and-hpe

Spec it with the EYPC 7371 for higher clocks than the server average (3.8 GHz max ST).

OMG, those are the 2 qualified vendors where I came from. With this being the case, there is no excuse for NOT using the Rome CPUs and these servers.

 

[bbhaag]

There is, they are called Ryzen Pro and Threadripper respectively fully fill those areas. Consumers and OEMs apparently are just too used to Intel style segmentation that they can't see any functional equivalence anymore.
Excellent marketing work by Intel.

I understand its a new trend on the forums to bash everything Intel but lets be honest here. AMD didn't do itself any favors by not having ANYTHING competitive in the market over the last what ten to twelve years? Literally nothing from AMD said "Buy me I'm competitive!". So lets not place the blame solely on Intel and their "marketing genius".
You want a decade plus of corporate culture of buying Intel(because the competition sucked)to change in one to two years? Get real man....

 

[Markfw]

I understand its a new trend on the forums to bash everything Intel but lets be honest here. AMD didn't do itself any favors by not having ANYTHING competitive in the market over the last what ten to twelve years? Literally nothing from AMD said "Buy me I'm competitive!". So lets not place the blame solely on Intel and their "marketing genius".
You want a decade plus of corporate culture of buying Intel(because the competition sucked)to change in one to two years? Get real man....

Its already been over 2 years that AMD has been competitive. Its just the last year or 2 that they blow Intel away in virtually all markets. And for the first time possibly ever for Intel, they have BLOWN it for at least 4 years with their 10 nm stuff.

They deserve all the bashing at this point, until they get their act together, which looks like 2022 at best. Its not just AMD doing well, its Intel doing crap.

 

[moinmoin]

I understand its a new trend on the forums to bash everything Intel but lets be honest here. AMD didn't do itself any favors by not having ANYTHING competitive in the market over the last what ten to twelve years? Literally nothing from AMD said "Buy me I'm competitive!". So lets not place the blame solely on Intel and their "marketing genius".
You want a decade plus of corporate culture of buying Intel(because the competition sucked)to change in one to two years? Get real man....

How is pointing out that Intel's highly segmented product range and an audience trained to expect such finely grained segmentation bashing?

That you apparently feel offended by such a banal revelation shows what fine work Intel's marketing dept did, and I'm not sarcastic about that (nor were I about the excellent marketing work by Intel, the best marketing is that which lasts, and Intel's most certainly does so far).

 

[bbhaag]

Its already been over 2 years that AMD has been competitive. Its just the last year or 2 that they blow Intel away in virtually all markets. And for the first time possibly ever for Intel, they have BLOWN it for at least 4 years with their 10 nm stuff.

They deserve all the bashing at this point, until they get their act together, which looks like 2022 at best. Its not just AMD doing well, its Intel doing crap.

Yeah and AMD had crap for a decade plus so whats your point? In the last 12 to 18 months AMD FINALLY brought something to the table worth looking at? Big freaking deal....
Corporate culture doesn't move as fast as you do man. It is going to take AMD a lot of time and money to change mindsets and like I mentioned above they didn't do themselves any favors by having noncompetitive products for so long.

Anyway, my original point still stands it isn't just Intels "marketing genius" holding AMD from gaining more market share. A lot of the blame lays at the feet of AMD as well.

 

[bbhaag]

How is pointing out that Intel's highly segmented product range and an audience trained to expect such finely grained segmentation bashing?

That you apparently feel offended by such a banal revelation shows what fine work Intel's marketing dept did, and I'm not sarcastic about that (nor were I about the excellent marketing work by Intel, the best marketing is that which lasts, and Intel's most certainly does so far).

and that's all I have to say about that.....

 

[moinmoin]

Anyway, my original point still stands it isn't just Intels "marketing genius" holding AMD from gaining more market share. A lot of the blame lays at the feet of AMD as well.

Nobody implied that Intel marketing is solely to blame, most of the other factors where actually mentioned already in this very thread.

What you responded to was purely about Intel's product segmentation and the false impression that AMD has gaps in its products range where it actually doesn't as it doesn't segment everything as finely as Intel does.