AMD V Nvidia by Richard Huddy

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Scali

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It's good that he explained the tessellation situation.

Sadly he's wrong though.
Firstly, he's conveniently 'forgetting' AA, which means that you are supersampling (at least along edges, where the issue of 2x2 quads becoming inefficient would occur, and smaller polys means more edges), so eg with 4xAA, you have 4 pixels to process for each pixel, before downsampling to the final resolution.
Secondly, tessellation is all about being dynamic. You can adjust the subdivision level to the size on the screen. So you can add detail when polys on screen become larger, exactly the opposite of the situation he describes.
Pixar/RenderMan are ALL about this concept.
 
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Scali

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So when intel starts throwing millions at game developers . Your story will stay the same . Book marked.

Doesn't Intel do that already?
For example, Crysis starts up with an Intel Core2 ad (even before the nVidia one, I believe), and I think I've seen that in various other games as well.
 

Scali

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Anyone here know what that "well-known" method is?

Yes, it's multisample readback in DirectX 10.1.
nVidia added support for their DX10 cards, which can do multisample readback, but not via the "well-known" method, as they aren't standard DX10.1 cards. And as mentioned, nVidia has added AA to various DX9 games as well, which obviously cannot used DX10.1 features in a "well-known" way either.
 
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Idontcare

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Oct 10, 1999
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Sadly he's wrong though.
Firstly, he's conveniently 'forgetting' AA, which means that you are supersampling (at least along edges, and smaller polys means more edges), so eg with 4xAA, you have 4 pixels to process for each pixel, before downsampling to the final resolution.
Secondly, tessellation is all about being dynamic. You can adjust the subdivision level to the size on the screen. So you can add detail when polys on screen become larger, exactly the opposite of the situation he describes.
Pixar/RenderMan are ALL about this concept.

Scali I'm not disputing your statement at all, I don't have the technical background in this area to really make any assessment of it, but how do you reconcile the delta between your assessment of the situation versus that of a highly placed and experienced individual of the likes of Richard Huddy?

I mean to say this guy could not have possibly gotten to his current position in life, accumulated the professional experience he has on his CV, without knowing a thing or two about his line of work. Right?

So when I read what Huddy has to say, and I read what you have to say, the logical conclusion that I come to is that I'm sure you are both correct but that there is reason what your talking about isn't something that Huddy is talking about.

He says 1+1=2 and you say 3-1=2 or 4+1=5...neither of you are wrong but your math has nothing to do with whatever reasoning Huddy is taking us down the 1+1=2 discussion path.

Or are you really trying to convince us that Huddy is not an expert and that he is to be wholly discounted?

Considering he is not anonymous and his credibility is on the line every time he goes on record, the exact opposite of your situation, I'd be inclined to believe Huddy even if I don't have the technical prowess to do so with confidence.

But I would be easily convinced that you are both right but you are missing the point of wherever Huddy was going with his message in the interview. Miscommunication happens all the time.
 

Scali

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Scali I'm not disputing your statement at all, I don't have the technical background in this area to really make any assessment of it, but how do you reconcile the delta between your assessment of the situation versus that of a highly placed and experienced individual of the likes of Richard Huddy?

Well, let's see...
I'm a professional graphics software engineer, with no ties to any videocard manufacturer. Aside from my professional work, I have open source projects available on the web, which use this sort of technology.
Richard Huddy is a PR guy (not a developer) for one of the largest GPU manufacturers in the world.

I mean to say this guy could not have possibly gotten to his current position in life, accumulated the professional experience he has on his CV, without knowing a thing or two about his line of work. Right?

I would say: wrong.
In my experience, PR people generally don't have a formal education in graphics or software development (Huddy does not, as far as I know). Their knowledge of the technology is superficial, and they consult their technical colleagues on what to say, and how to say it. Huddy has often been burnt in the past because he tends to cross these boundaries, and in the process either stabs people in the back or at least puts his foot in his mouth.

So when I read what Huddy has to say, and I read what you have to say, the logical conclusion that I come to is that I'm sure you are both correct but that there is reason what your talking about isn't something that Huddy is talking about.

The simple answer is that tessellation is not currently one of AMD's strong points, so naturally Huddy will try to downplay its significance.
I'm just saying that his scenario is not an accurate representation of reality. Mine is. As I say: look at how Pixar applies tessellation in their RenderMan software. That's where we should be going with tessellation on GPUs: adaptive subdivision based on the polygon's sizes in screen-space.

I could go in detail on how rasterizing, tessellation, NURBS and AA work, and how it all fits together, but you'd have to ask specific questions, because I don't know what you know, what you don't know, and what you want to know. It's a pretty large subject to cover in a single post.
So please: Ask questions if you want to know something. I know pretty much everything about graphics.

Or are you really trying to convince us that Huddy is not an expert and that he is to be wholly discounted?

I am willing to go as far as this: He is not an expert in the technical field. He consults experts in his company. That is not the same. You could say he's an expert-by-proxy. He is not to be wholly discounted, but he does not exactly have a flawless reputation, and obviously he has an agenda to push.

Considering he is not anonymous and his credibility is on the line every time he goes on record, the exact opposite of your situation, I'd be inclined to believe Huddy even if I don't have the technical prowess to do so with confidence.

That is exactly the danger of the situation. People believe him, even if he is wrong.

But I would be easily convinced that you are both right but you are missing the point of wherever Huddy was going with his message in the interview. Miscommunication happens all the time.

I know full well where Huddy is trying to go: he's trying to cover up AMD's poor tessellation performance.
 
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Grooveriding

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Dec 25, 2008
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A snippet of Richard Huddy's linkedin

Richard Huddy

Worldwide Developer Relations and European ISV Relations Manager at AMD and President and CEO of Code Mafia Ltd
Location Guildford, United Kingdom Industry Computer Hardware
Current
  • President and CEO at Code Mafia Ltd
  • Developer Relations Manager at Advanced Micro Devices
  • Worldwide Developer Relations Manager at AMD
Past
  • European Developer Relations Manager at NVIDIA
  • Engineer at 3DLabs
  • Windows Programming Manager at The Multimedia Corporation

  • Programmer at Magnetic Scrolls
see less...

see all...
Education
  • Imperial College London
Recommendations 3 people have recommended Richard
Connections 370 connections
Public Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/richard-huddy/0/31/7a


Sounds like a qualified chap. ;)
 

Scali

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Sounds like a qualified chap. ;)

I'm not saying he isn't qualified. I'm saying he isn't an expert in the field, and doesn't have as much (if any at all) hands-on experience with present-day hardware and software as your average developer.
Not just saying that to discredit him, I'm saying that because he's managed to put his foot in his mouth many times over the years (something you shouldn't be doing as a PR guy... it doesn't matter if you're not an expert on certain subjects, th PR people from Intel, nVidia and other large companies generally aren't either, but trying to bluff your way through it is not a good idea... that's something you don't see from PR people from other companies).
 

badb0y

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Feb 22, 2010
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I'm not saying he isn't qualified. I'm saying he isn't an expert in the field, and doesn't have as much (if any at all) hands-on experience with present-day hardware and software as your average developer.
Not just saying that to discredit him, I'm saying that because he's managed to put his foot in his mouth many times over the years (something you shouldn't be doing as a PR guy... it doesn't matter if you're not an expert on certain subjects, th PR people from Intel, nVidia and other large companies generally aren't either, but trying to bluff your way through it is not a good idea... that's something you don't see from PR people from other companies).

Lol JHH holding a fake Fermi board is not bluffing?
 

Scali

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Lol JHH holding a fake Fermi board is not bluffing?

I'm talking about factual errors.
Using mock-ups of upcoming products is a very common practice (the actual working prototypes are generally not very pretty, and would not be an accurate representation of the final product. The card that JHH showed looked pretty much exactly like reference GTX465/470/480 cards on the market).
 
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Grooveriding

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Dec 25, 2008
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pretty sure JHH is not in PR, he does have a degree in electrical engineering though

I agree that certainly is not his position. But I think the whole spectacle of him standing up there and saying here is working Fermi hardware was product promotion/pr/marketing what have you.

He's certainly a smart CEO in the way Jobbs is about using himself as a figurehead and getting up there and talking about what is happening with the company.
 

badb0y

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Feb 22, 2010
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I'm talking about factual errors.
Using mock-ups of upcoming products is a very common practice (the actual working prototypes are generally not very pretty, and would not be an accurate representation of the final product. The card that JHH showed looked pretty much exactly like reference GTX465/470/480 cards on the market).

True, but how come they didn't say anything until people started asking them questions?
 

Scali

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Dec 3, 2004
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True, but how come they didn't say anything until people started asking them questions?

Because
a) It's a common and well-understood practice (any journalist who isn't aware of mock-ups being used at product presentations isn't worth the title 'journalist' in the first place)
b) It doesn't matter
 

n0x1ous

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Sep 9, 2010
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I may be wrong, but I thought they did have actual GF100's up and running at that presentation. The mock-up board was simply a representation of what a final card might look like.

It would be one thing if they had shown demo's of something that they said were running on Fermi but were actually running on GT200 or something, but AFAIK they did have working GF100 chips running the demos there.
 

apoppin

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i was there for the press conference

Jensen did NOT say "this is a working Fermi"

i asked their officials immediately if it was an actual video card and without hesitation, he answered, "it is a production mock-up".

He did assure me that the demos were running on Fermi silicon.

I may be wrong, but I thought they did have actual GF100's up and running at that presentation. The mock-up board was simply a representation of what a final card might look like.

It would be one thing if they had shown demo's of something that they said were running on Fermi but were actually running on GT200 or something, but AFAIK they did have working GF100 chips running the demos there.
 

Scali

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I may be wrong, but I thought they did have actual GF100's up and running at that presentation.

Exactly, that's the OTHER part of nVidia's explanation about the mock-up, which everybody 'conveniently' seems to ignore:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2009/10/03/fermi-card-on-stage-wasn-t-real/1
When I questioned Nvidia about this, it confirmed that the board was a mock up and that we'd see product shots as soon as the board designs have been completed. The company was adamant that the demos on stage were in fact real and said that the bring up board has wires dangling from it, so it isn't a pretty sight at the moment.
 

Gikaseixas

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Jul 1, 2004
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A snippet of Richard Huddy's linkedin

Richard Huddy

Worldwide Developer Relations and European ISV Relations Manager at AMD and President and CEO of Code Mafia Ltd
Location Guildford, United Kingdom Industry Computer Hardware
Current
  • President and CEO at Code Mafia Ltd
  • Developer Relations Manager at Advanced Micro Devices
  • Worldwide Developer Relations Manager at AMD
Past
  • European Developer Relations Manager at NVIDIA
  • Engineer at 3DLabs
  • Windows Programming Manager at The Multimedia Corporation

  • Programmer at Magnetic Scrolls
see less...

see all...
Education
  • Imperial College London
Recommendations 3 people have recommended Richard
Connections 370 connections
Public Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/richard-huddy/0/31/7a


Sounds like a qualified chap. ;)

Qualified indeed and knows what he's talking about.
 

Janooo

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Aug 22, 2005
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I'm talking about factual errors.
Using mock-ups of upcoming products is a very common practice (the actual working prototypes are generally not very pretty, and would not be an accurate representation of the final product. The card that JHH showed looked pretty much exactly like reference GTX465/470/480 cards on the market).
He lied and you are defending the liar. :)
 

Scali

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Dec 3, 2004
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Qualified indeed and knows what he's talking about.

Yea, that's why he would make beginner's mistakes such as not knowing that Futuremark used denormalized normalmaps, and that's why they couldn't use 3Dc (as ATi devrel agreed!).
Yet people choose to believe Huddy, even though I think we can all at least agree that the people at FutureMark would know more about optimizing shaders and DirectX code than Huddy. Huddy is not qualified enough to pull something like 3DMark or Shattered Horizon off.
 
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Scali

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He lied and you are defending the liar. :)

He would have lied if he said that it was a real, working Fermi card. As far as I know, he never claimed it was a real card, and as such, he would not have lied.
Huddy on the other hand...
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
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He would have lied if he said that it was a real, working Fermi card. As far as I know, he never claimed it was a real card, and as such, he would not have lied.
Huddy on the other hand...
"This puppy here, is Fermi" and it wasn't. It was a lie.
 

Gikaseixas

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Jul 1, 2004
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Yea, that's why he would make beginner's mistakes such as not knowing that Futuremark used denormalized normalmaps, and that's why they couldn't use 3Dc.

I see that you only came here just to discredit the guy hence once again showing your true agenda.


Personal Attacks are not acceptable.

Moderator Idontcare
 
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n0x1ous

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Sep 9, 2010
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I see that you only came here just to discredit the guy hence once again showing your true agenda.

Way to dispute the statement there chief. Don't attack someone's character just because you aren't capable of refuting their point.

The thread is about Huddy. It says so right in the title. Should he not be questioned or is everything he says taken as gospel?
 
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Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
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It's a fact. I don't have an agenda... Huddy does, however.

then i don't know why you feel so compled to paint ATI/AMD as the worst company ever in every thread. It's a trend and people noticed that you know? I told you several times: try to be as neutral as you can.

Yes he does because you said so right?