• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

AMD throws down the gauntlet at Intel

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
The problem is they have to pass all parts, A, B, and C. They don't have to have just voting rights, they also have to own 50%.
Bolded the and in the original, its easy to miss.
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: SunnyD

AMD maintains 50% voting rights with Global Foundry, regardless of what their ownership stake is. According to the agreement - they indirectly control GFC, and hence it satisfies the "subsidiary" rule.


They have to pass A, B, and C. It isn't either or.

well, it does say either/or in the subsid rule that you posted:

(b) owns or controls (either directly or indirectly) either of the
following:

(1) if such entity has voting shares or other securities, at
least fifty percent (50%) of the outstanding shares or
securities entitled to vote for the election of
directors or similar managing authority and such entity
is under no obligation (contractual or otherwise) to
directly or indirectly distribute more than seventy
percent (70%) of its profits to a third party, or

(2) if such entity does not have voting shares or other
securities, at least fifty percent (50%) of the
ownership interest that represents the right to make
decisions for such entity and an interest sufficient to
receive at least thirty percent (30%) of the profits
and/or losses of such entity.

The either, as I bolded, refers to (1) or (2) being singly sufficient to qualify part B. part C simply restates that having satisfied parts A and B, the company is considered a subsidiary.

Yes, parts A and B are both necessary, but voting rights clause (1) is singly sufficient to satisfy part B, based on the craptastic legalese in that rule.

---
(a) and (b) are both necessary; (1) or (2) is singly necessary to qualify for (b).
 
Here's an interesting quip...

3. GRANT OF RIGHTS

3.1. AMD License to Intel. Subject to the terms and conditions of this
--------------------
Agreement, AMD hereby grants to Intel a non-exclusive,
non-transferable ***** worldwide license, without the right to
sublicense, under AMD's Patents to:

(a) make, use, sell (directly or indirectly), offer to sell,
import and otherwise dispose of all Intel Licensed Products;
and

(b) make, have made, use and/or import any equipment and practice
any method or process for the manufacture, use and/or sale of
Intel Licensed Products; and

(c) have made ***** Intel Licensed Products by another
manufacturer for supply solely to Intel for use, import, sale,
offer for sale or disposition by Intel pursuant to the license
granted above in Section 3.1(a).

Wouldn't Intel's licensing of Atom to be produced by TSMC violate 3.1 (c), since Atom happens to contain at the very least x86-64 (EM64T)? I believe Intel was licensing Atom to TSMC in order to allow it to be used/modified/expanded/embedded by 3rd parties if I am not mistaken.
 
Originally posted by: SunnyD


Wouldn't Intel's licensing of Atom to be produced by TSMC violate 3.1 (c), since Atom happens to contain at the very least x86-64 (EM64T)? I believe Intel was licensing Atom to TSMC in order to allow it to be used/modified/expanded/embedded by 3rd parties if I am not mistaken.

We would have to be able to read the redacted parts to really tell what the they included/excluded.
 
Originally posted by: SunnyD
Easy to figure out:

(a) - AMD sold (contributed) nearly 100% of all tangible assets to GFC in the sale.

(b) - Has controlling vote rights (50% control).

(c) - thus is a subsidiary.


They didn't contribute 50% of the assets for Global. AMD didn't have the cash which is why they jumped at the deal.
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
They didn't contribute 50% of the assets for Global. AMD didn't have the cash which is why they jumped at the deal.
AMD says it contributed $1.8 billion and ATIC contributed $1.4 billion. link

Intel isn't looking so hot right now, and with that "spoils go the victor" clause, AMD is looking good.
 
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Modelworks
They didn't contribute 50% of the assets for Global. AMD didn't have the cash which is why they jumped at the deal.
AMD says it contributed $1.8 billion and ATIC contributed $1.4 billion. link

Intel isn't looking so hot right now, and with that "spoils go the victor" clause, AMD is looking good.

And 1.1 Billion of AMD debt.
Add it all up and you get the 4.3 billion company value. Leaving ATIC having paid 2.5 billion.
I'm sure that is what Intel will argue.
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Modelworks
They didn't contribute 50% of the assets for Global. AMD didn't have the cash which is why they jumped at the deal.
AMD says it contributed $1.8 billion and ATIC contributed $1.4 billion. link

Intel isn't looking so hot right now, and with that "spoils go the victor" clause, AMD is looking good.
And 1.1 Billion of AMD debt.
Add it all up and you get the 4.3 billion company value. Leaving ATIC having paid 2.5 billion.
I'm sure that is what Intel will argue.
ATIC isn't responsible for that. GF is.
 
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Modelworks
They didn't contribute 50% of the assets for Global. AMD didn't have the cash which is why they jumped at the deal.
AMD says it contributed $1.8 billion and ATIC contributed $1.4 billion. link

Intel isn't looking so hot right now, and with that "spoils go the victor" clause, AMD is looking good.
And 1.1 Billion of AMD debt.
Add it all up and you get the 4.3 billion company value. Leaving ATIC having paid 2.5 billion.
I'm sure that is what Intel will argue.
ATIC isn't responsible for that. GF is.

Except they can't disallow that as not being part of the companies founding. Essentially what AMD tried to do is invest in a company to get voting rights then once the company was formed, the company gives them most of their money back. Which is what Intel says in their complaint.

http://www.internetnews.com/go...nt/article.php/3810696
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Except they can't disallow that as not being part of the companies founding. Essentially what AMD tried to do is invest in a company to get voting rights then once the company was formed, the company gives them most of their money back. Which is what Intel says in their complaint.

http://www.internetnews.com/go...nt/article.php/3810696
The cross-licensing agreement didn't deal with the contribution of liabilities (or equity) to the subsidiary company. AMD isn't receiving any money back from GF.
 
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Except they can't disallow that as not being part of the companies founding. Essentially what AMD tried to do is invest in a company to get voting rights then once the company was formed, the company gives them most of their money back. Which is what Intel says in their complaint.

http://www.internetnews.com/go...nt/article.php/3810696
The cross-licensing agreement didn't deal with the contribution of liabilities (or equity) to the subsidiary company. AMD isn't receiving any money back from GF.

Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy told InternetNews.com. Intel argues that while AMD put a large amount of cash into the foundry company, ATIC gave the company back almost all of its investment, so it's not a 50/50 ownership.

 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy told InternetNews.com. Intel argues that while AMD put a large amount of cash into the foundry company, ATIC gave the company back almost all of its investment, so it's not a 50/50 ownership.
Please explain how AMD received its investment back from ATIC. Did AMD's ownership stake in GF go down due to this "deal"? And does AMD meet the minimum 50% control of GF?
 
When does Intel's IP related to x86 go into public domain? Is it protected by patent, copyright, or both?

I think it's absolutely ridiculous all the hoops AMD and other chip designers have to jump through to use x86 tech, Intel is so anticompetitive it's disgusting. If AMD was ever shut down, I wonder if the government would get involved and split Intel up.
 
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
When does Intel's IP related to x86 go into public domain? Is it protected by patent, copyright, or both?
Intel's IP goes into the public domain virtually every day. But Intel also gets dozens of new patents every day. Example. These new patents will last 20 years.

The old 286, 386, etc were not able to be trademarked. Thus, Intel switched to Pentium, Celeron, Centrino, etc. which are trademarked. These trademarks will last basically forever as long as Intel uses them.
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
I think it's absolutely ridiculous all the hoops AMD and other chip designers have to jump through to use x86 tech, Intel is so anticompetitive it's disgusting. If AMD was ever shut down, I wonder if the government would get involved and split Intel up.
So, if you spent billions of your dollars inventing something new, do you think that anyone should be able to sweep in and copy it? That is basically what AMD did for years. Intel would invent something and AMD would copy it. Only recently has AMD came up with new technology of its own.
 
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
I think it's absolutely ridiculous all the hoops AMD and other chip designers have to jump through to use x86 tech, Intel is so anticompetitive it's disgusting. If AMD was ever shut down, I wonder if the government would get involved and split Intel up.

I think the real issue comes from how x86 is so predominant in the market and the chances of it falling out of the limelight are incredibly small and would probably require a whole new method of computing... such as handhelds (which don't use x86-based processors for the most part) or even going to completely new technology like quantum computing 😛.

But even then, you have to make sure you're not attempting to recreate DVD vs Blu-Ray round 2 in the fact that people need to see a tangible reason to upgrade. Itanium could never really provide this as if I remember correctly it initially had no x86 support and then later on had very slow emulation. Just look at how long it's taking to switch to 64-bit computing (with x86-64).
 
Nothing wrong with Intel trying to protect their IP, but they take it too far sometimes. They are very frugal with their x86 licenses which creates an almost insurmountable barrier to entry in the market. The reason AMD had to try to make a subsidiary and "transfer" their x86 license is because Intel would never have sold a new license to Global Foundries. It's total bullshit.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
When does Intel's IP related to x86 go into public domain? Is it protected by patent, copyright, or both?
Intel's IP goes into the public domain virtually every day. But Intel also gets dozens of new patents every day. Example. These new patents will last 20 years.

After looking through that list, I need to file a few of my own patents:

-Method: the thin application of condiments to the reverse side of sliced bread in manner to achieve efficient cross-hybridization of heterogeneous substrates.

-Method: efficient mastication of hybridized bread substrates.

If you can't patent the sandwich, might as well patent the steps involved....
 
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy told InternetNews.com. Intel argues that while AMD put a large amount of cash into the foundry company, ATIC gave the company back almost all of its investment, so it's not a 50/50 ownership.
Please explain how AMD received its investment back from ATIC. Did AMD's ownership stake in GF go down due to this "deal"? And does AMD meet the minimum 50% control of GF?

I think what Intel is getting at is that AMD does not now own 50% of GF. They set it up so that GF would take $1.1 billon of their debt once the company was formed. So it is like AMD is saying we got $1.8billion in the company and at the same time the company has $1.1 billion of their debt paid back to GF by ATIC which is only $700 million net.

It is almost like money laundering.
 
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, that's for sure. The formation of GF is unquestionably a Hail Mary for AMD, so I don't think their position has been particularly well thought out. They were already doomed due to their finances, so there's not much for them to lose here.

What I would like to know is what Intel expects to get out of this. If they let it slide then it would have maintained the status quo (which isn't bad for Intel) but if this were to go all the way and Intel wins, the risk of anti-trust regulators coming down on them is immense. Intel doesn't want AMD dead, so what do they want from AMD? Hypertransport? ATI? More favorable terms than the current cross-licensing agreement allows?
 
It is interesting how this one going to play out.

We don't fully understand what IP agreements that AMD & Intel have with each other, but I would pull the same media assassination strategy on AMD in the current market condition if I'm in Intel shoes.
 
This reminds me of this...

The Story of the CISC King and Appendix H -- by Robert R. Collins

In the beginning there was the CISC King and a pile of sand. The pile of sand was formless and empty. And the CISC King hovered over the pile of sand and saw that it was good. The CISC King saw that it was good, and thus ended the first day.

And the CISC King said "Let there be a huge expanse between our kingdom and the kingdoms of our competitors." So the CISC King created the expanse and raised itself above all other kingdoms. His kingdom was to be the only kingdom, and all others would be made into martyrs. The CISC King saw that this was good, and thus ended the second day.

And the CISC King said "Let me separate the pile of sand into transistors." And it was so that the CISC King separated the pile of sand into transistors. The CISC King said "Let the pile of sand produce offspring and bear fruit unto the land." So the pile of sand began to produce offspring and thus was born many generations of this pile of sand. The CISC King saw that this was good, and thus ended the third day.

And the CISC King said "Let us separate the different piles of sand by generations, and categorize them as numbers." And the CISC King began to separate the piles of sand by generation, calling all newer generations by higher numbers, and all lower generations by lower numbers. The CISC King found that he could not do this work alone, and he asked the other kingdoms if they could help separate the piles of sand by generation. Like usual, the CISC King was pleased with his work, and thus ended the fourth day.

And the CISC King saw that letting other kingdoms help separate the piles of sand might threaten his future kingdom. So the CISC King said "Let us withhold information from the other kingdoms so they can no longer help separate the piles of sand into future generations." Then the CISC King went to war with the other kingdoms to prevent them from separating the piles of sand into future generations. Thus ended the fifth day (the CISC King was happier with himself than at any other time).

While the war was raging between the kingdoms, the CISC King said to himself, "I shall create even mightier and more powerful things out of this pile of sand. It shall contain one-and-many zeros of transistors and shall be made to do many wonderful things. I shall call it Pentagram and it shall be formed in my likeness." So the CISC King said to his subjects, "Go and create me a book, and we shall call it a Design Specification." The CISC King created the book, and distributed it to those calling themselves his trusted and loyal court jesters. Those who had been given the book saw that it was good, and they were pleased.

They said to the CISC King "it is good that you give us this book. It will make our lives more productive." Shortly thereafter, the CISC King gave these subjects a newer book which he called "revision two." But it wasn't until revision three that his trusted subjects were pleased with the book's contents. They said to the CISC King "it is good that you gave us this information. In the past, you withheld this from us, so we are pleased with your new book." The CISC King said "yea, this is a wonderful day, I am pleased with myself." Thus ended the sixth day.

Now most kingdoms take the seventh day to rest, but not the CISC King's kingdom. All of his subjects and advisors always work on the seventh day. So on the seventh day, the serpent came to the CISC King masquerading as one of his trusted lawyers, and said "you shall not give your subjects as much information as is contained in revision three. They could use it, and become as powerful as we are." Because the CISC King was unholy by working on the seventh day, he believed the serpent. And the CISC King decided to take back all of revision three, and created two new books: revision four, and Appendix H. Revision four was weak and narrow minded and would be distributed to all of the king's subjects. Appendix H was broad and powerful but required its recipients to worship the CISC King for fifteen years. Some of the kings subjects rebelled and refused to worship the CISC King. Many bent over in worship and remain there to this day. Others rebelled, but bent over in worship, as their livelihood depended upon the CISC King.

The CISC King's workers did a poor job creating Appendix H from revision three. They accidentally forgot to remove scores of references to the forbidden knowledge of the pile of sand. Many of the CISC King's subjects scoffed at his vein attempt to hide information. Others justified the CISC King's actions and remained bent over in worship. When the Pentagram was finished, the CISC King saw that it was created in his likeness, and he was pleased.

As word spread of the CISC King's actions, his subjects were disturbed that they couldn't learn of all of the Pentagram's behavior. The CISC King said "I will not withhold the information from those who need it. I only require them to bend over in worship for fifteen years." As complaints of the CISC King's actions began to spread, the CISC King said "I will not withhold the information from those who need it." And the CISC King told his subjects that compiler writers, and BIOS programmers were the only people who needed it. Many people screamed at the CISC King, and said " I want to make my programs run faster, give me the information." The CISC King said "No, you are not a compiler writer or BIOS programmer, you don't need it." Now it was obvious that the CISC King was under the influence of the serpent and his spell. But the CISC King couldn't break the spell of the serpent, as he was too powerful.

Now, the CISC King wasn't telling the truth about whom he gave Appendix H. The CISC King said BIOS programmers would never be withheld from receiving the Appendix H. But one BIOS programmer tried many times to get the CISC King to give him Appendix H, but the CISC King refused. At first, the CISC King agreed, but then the serpent spoke to the CISC King, and forced the CISC King to go back on his word. None of the CISC King's other subjects knew the CISC King was lying about Appendix H, because the CISC King was powerful and could cover up his lies. If the other subjects had known about the CISC King's lies, they could have organized themselves, and brought war against the CISC King for anti-competitive practices. But the CISC King was too powerful, and with the aid of the serpent, could promote any false story; and it would become known as the truth.

Then one day, in the eastern city of Bar-Chemnitz, a savior was born. The savior said he was a Christian, and would wage a war against the CISC King and his serpent for hiding Appendix H. The savior began to write and tell all of the King's subjects about Appendix H. And the CISC King fought back. The CISC King brought the serpent to the town square where the savior was parading his knowledge. The serpent told the people in the square if they would follow the CISC King, he would give them knowledge about new generations of piles of sand before any of the other people in the surrounding towns. All the townspeople had to do, was to prohibit the Savior from coming into the town square to tell all of the people of his great knowledge. The people in this town listened to the serpent, and agreed that what he said was good. So the people followed the CISC King, and rejected the Savior.

So the savior went to another city that had much greater wealth than Bar-Chemnitz. The new city was known world-wide and could influence as many people as the CISC King. The new city was known as "Internet." The savior began to tell his story to the people of Internet; and the people listened. He began to tell them of his knowledge and all that the CISC King was hiding in Appendix H. The CISC King grew furious, but realized that the people of Internet were a powerful people. The CISC King consulted with his serpent. The serpent told him to release all of the information in Appendix H, that the savior had already disclosed. The serpent told the CISC King that his subjects were dumb, and wouldn't realize that he was reacting to the Savior's message. The serpent told the CISC King that he could still keep his 4M pages and VME a secret, as all of the king's subjects were too dumb to figure them out.

But many of the CISC King's subjects began to follow the Savior. They had grown tired and weary of the CISC King's lies and believed that this was the Savior who was foretold in the beginning. Some who had been bent over in worship realized they could break loose from the CISC King and follow the Savior.

The Savior learned about many people who were just like him, and had great knowledge of Appendix H. The Savior choose these people as his disciples, and they followed him to Internet. The Savior's disciples erected distribution sites in Internet, and linked themselves like a spider's web. One such site dedicated itself to disclosing secrets of the CISC King, and could be found at the corner of http://www.x86.org and ftp://ftp.x86.org [and another one, you are actually visiting]. The CISC King sent his spies to watch these distribution sites and report to him all of their actions. But the disciples were undaunted by the evil actions of the CISC King.

The disciples started investigating Appendix H to see how much information the CISC King was still hiding. One disciple concentrated on 4M pages, and the another disciple on VME. The disciple investigating 4M pages discovered that it was completely documented in another one of the CISC King's books. This book told the story about an unrelated pile of sand which was named by a completely different set of numbers. The people who played with this pile of sand didn't need to bend over in worship for fifteen years to be told the secrets of 4M pages. The CISC King gave the information freely to these people. Then this disciple wondered why the CISC King would require some subjects to bend over in worship for fifteen years to be told of 4M pages, when the people who played in a different pile of sand could read about it freely. Then this disciple realized that the CISC King was getting bad advise from the serpent. But the King's subjects pretty dumb, and didn't know where to look to learn of 4M pages without bending over for the CISC King.

The other disciple who was investigating VME made remarkable progress. He was under tremendous pressure. The CISC King was threatening to tell everybody about 4M pages and VME when he spawned a new generation from his piles of sand. But the disciples wanted to tell the King's subjects about these secrets before the King did. So they told the people of Internet that they were going to disclose all of the secrets of Appendix H as a war trophy, demonstrating their defeat of the CISC King. The people of Internet were thankful to the Savior and his disciples. So on a specified date at a specified time, the Savior and his disciples disclosed all of the secrets of Appendix H. Good had triumphed over evil -- the weak over the strong. But the CISC King didn't learn, and continued to be influenced by the serpent, all the days of his life. Eventually the CISC King died, and was laid to rest whence he came, in a large pile of sand.

The End.
 
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
When does Intel's IP related to x86 go into public domain? Is it protected by patent, copyright, or both?

I think it's absolutely ridiculous all the hoops AMD and other chip designers have to jump through to use x86 tech, Intel is so anticompetitive it's disgusting. If AMD was ever shut down, I wonder if the government would get involved and split Intel up.

Please...AMD is free to innovate their own computer chip and can call it x89 if they choose to do so.
There is nothing stopping them from doing that.
 
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
When does Intel's IP related to x86 go into public domain? Is it protected by patent, copyright, or both?

I think it's absolutely ridiculous all the hoops AMD and other chip designers have to jump through to use x86 tech, Intel is so anticompetitive it's disgusting. If AMD was ever shut down, I wonder if the government would get involved and split Intel up.

Please...AMD is free to innovate their own computer chip and can call it x89 if they choose to do so.
There is nothing stopping them from doing that.
Yeah, because RISC really worked well for Apple. x86 is heavily entrenched in the industry, developing a completely different instruction set would be a waste of time.
 
Back
Top