AMD Raven Ridge 'Zen APU' Thread

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jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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#26
Neither of us know what HBM2 will cost a year from now.
It'd be a real stretch to think that the price would come down enough that quickly, especially given both AMD and nVidia are avoiding using HBM2 on the much more expensive dGPUs.
 

majord

Senior member
Jul 26, 2015
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#27
I've always seen HBM2 on Raven as a complete pipe dream personally.. and frankly, IF they achieve DDR3200 (and to not do so would be pretty fail) I don't think it's necessary. Likewise EDram..

Further to sweepers post above

RX 480 4GB: 38.6Gbs/ Tflop
RR@ 1.2Ghz: 30.4Gbs/ Tflop

not perfect by any means once you share this BW with a CPU, but the added cost to spam it with bandwidth via HBM2 just isn't going to add up perf/$ wise.
 
Feb 2, 2009
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#28
The silicon that goes into those premium priced laptops isn't more expensive than a dGPU that could support the cost baggage that HBM2 brings.

I don't think people realize just how expensive this memory technology is to implement.
I dont believe ZEN Raven Ridge with a small die (less than 200mm2) and only with 2-4MB of HBM2 memory (+ Interposer) is more expensive than Polaris 10 232mm2 + PCB + 8GB of 8GBPS memory.

Not only that, but that Raven Ridge (HBM2) could be sold at higher price than Polaris 10 Custom cards ($299)
 
Feb 27, 2003
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#29
Next xbox apu?

If it just supports quad channel, then memory bandwidth shouldn't be to much of a problem. But I doubt that it will.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
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#30
I dont believe ZEN Raven Ridge with a small die (less than 200mm2) and only with 2-4MB of HBM2 memory (+ Interposer) is more expensive than Polaris 10 232mm2 + PCB + 8GB of 8GBPS memory.

Not only that, but that Raven Ridge (HBM2) could be sold at higher price than Polaris 10 Custom cards ($299)
I doubt these APU will have the CPU performance to sell at that price.

Next xbox apu?

If it just supports quad channel, then memory bandwidth shouldn't be to much of a problem. But I doubt that it will.
We can be lucky if it is dual channel and OEMs actually install 2 modules in dual channel.
 
Feb 2, 2009
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#31
I doubt these APU will have the CPU performance to sell at that price.
Dual Core Intel Core i5 Iris Graphics 6th Gen Skylake (Core i5 6360U 15W TDP and Core i5 6267U 28W TDP) have a recommended price of $305

http://ark.intel.com/products/family/88393/6th-Generation-Intel-Core-i5-Processors#@Mobile

And you actually believe that a Quad Core + HT 8x Threads ZEN with Polaris 10 Graphics paired with 4GB of HBM2 memory will not be able to sell for the same price ???

If AMD create an APU like that it will make those Dual Core Intel CPUs obsolete or force Intel to lower their price bellow $200.
 
Mar 10, 2004
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#32
Dual Core Intel Core i5 Iris Graphics 6th Gen Skylake (Core i5 6360U 15W TDP and Core i5 6267U 28W TDP) have a recommended price of $305

http://ark.intel.com/products/family/88393/6th-Generation-Intel-Core-i5-Processors#@Mobile

And you actually believe that a Quad Core + HT 8x Threads ZEN with Polaris 10 Graphics paired with 4GB of HBM2 memory will not be able to sell for the same price ???

If AMD create an APU like that it will make those Dual Core Intel CPUs obsolete or force Intel to lower their price bellow $200.
Well, you have power levels to consider, and the possible elimination of AMD's own low end dgpus.

How much power for a 4C/8T 4GB P10 APU?
Can you cool such a single package effectively in a laptop?

If we look at the RX480, and cut it's power in half, we'd still have ~55W just for the graphics chip.
If we cut it by 75%, we are still at ~27W for the graphics chip.

It also seems unlikely that HBM2 would be cheap enough any time soon to make such an APU affordable.

AMD has the potential, but will they be able to follow through?
 
Feb 2, 2009
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#33
Well, you have power levels to consider, and the possible elimination of AMD's own low end dgpus.

How much power for a 4C/8T 4GB P10 APU?
Can you cool such a single package effectively in a laptop?

If we look at the RX480, and cut it's power in half, we'd still have 55W just for the graphics chip.

It also seems unlikely that HBM2 would be cheap enough any time soon to make such an APU affordable.

AMD has the potential, but will they be able to follow through?
RX 480 has 36 CUs, ZEN APUs is rumored to only have 11 CUs or roughly 1/3. This APU will also have less CUs than RX-460 (16 CUs) so low end dGPUs are fine.

Due to 14nm FF + ZEN mArchitecture and HBM2, this APU with just Quad Core + Polaris (11 CUs) will be more than fine for 15W to 45W TDP for Laptops. It will also command a premium price for the high-end 15W TDP Laptops.

The only problem is for AMD to find a buyer (Apple ???)
 
Aug 11, 2008
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#34
RX 480 has 36 CUs, ZEN APUs is rumored to only have 11 CUs or roughly 1/3. This APU will also have less CUs than RX-460 (16 CUs) so low end dGPUs are fine.

Due to 14nm FF + ZEN mArchitecture and HBM2, this APU with just Quad Core + Polaris (11 CUs) will be more than fine for 15W to 45W TDP for Laptops. It will also command a premium price for the high-end 15W TDP Laptops.

The only problem is for AMD to find a buyer (Apple ???)
Your math doesn't add up. RX 480 is 150 watts. 1/3 of that is 50 watts *for the igpu alone*, not even counting the cpu. They would (theoretically, because I don't think AMD has officially announced HBM for any apus except that behemoth server thing that was mentioned) have to cut that down a lot more, or drastically lower clockspeeds to get close to 15 watts. Based on RX 480 perf/watt and clockspeeds, I don't think 14nm Finfet is the magic bullet that you seem to think it is, although of course it will be a great improvement.
 
Feb 2, 2009
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#35
Your math doesn't add up. RX 480 is 150 watts. 1/3 of that is 50 watts *for the igpu alone*, not even counting the cpu. They would (theoretically, because I don't think AMD has officially announced HBM for any apus except that behemoth server thing that was mentioned) have to cut that down a lot more, or drastically lower clockspeeds to get close to 15 watts. Based on RX 480 perf/watt and clockspeeds, I don't think 14nm Finfet is the magic bullet that you seem to think it is, although of course it will be a great improvement.
We have an 8 CU Bulldozer based 28nm Planar 15W TDP Carizzo APU, and you really believe a Quad Core 8x Threads ZEN with 11CU Polaris at 14nm FF is not possible at 15W TDP ???

Also not to forget, RX-480 150W TDP includes 8GB of very power hungry GDDR-5 at 2000MHz. Since the APU will not have GDDR-5, the 11CU chip will be less than 50W at the same clocks as the Desktop dGPU.
 
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Mar 10, 2004
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#36
RX 480 has 36 CUs, ZEN APUs is rumored to only have 11 CUs or roughly 1/3. This APU will also have less CUs than RX-460 (16 CUs) so low end dGPUs are fine.

Due to 14nm FF + ZEN mArchitecture and HBM2, this APU with just Quad Core + Polaris (11 CUs) will be more than fine for 15W to 45W TDP for Laptops. It will also command a premium price for the high-end 15W TDP Laptops.

The only problem is for AMD to find a buyer (Apple ???)
1/3 would be in the range of 25W even at a reduced clock rate, I would think?
HBM2 would presumably give it a bandwidth advantage over RX460?

IIRC AMD's 14nm process is not as power efficient as expected? At least in the case of RX480?
 

wicka

Senior member
Dec 14, 2003
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#37
.
 
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Feb 2, 2009
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#38
AMD Bristol Ridge

28nm Planar

Dual Module 4x Threads Bulldozer based
8x CU iGPU GCN 1.2
Dual Channel DDR-4 2400MHz

12W-15W and 25W-45W TDP SKUs.

----------------

AMD Raven Ridge

14nm FF

Quad Core + HT 8 Threads ZEN mArchitecture
11x CU iGPU GCN 1.4 Polaris
Dual Channel DDR-4 3200MHz

15-45W TDP SKUs.

Anyone have any objections with that ???

If not, then adding a new SKU with HBM2 for the High-End Laptop premium market is actually very possible.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
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#39
Your math doesn't add up. RX 480 is 150 watts. 1/3 of that is 50 watts *for the igpu alone*
If you were to run a RX480 at 900 MHz, it would surely use far less power. 27 watts should be easily attainable for 1/3 of a RX480. Dont forget, the RX480 GPU die itself is only pulling 110 watts out of that 150W TDP. Undervolt and underclock that down to around 80 watts, then cut it by 2/3 and what do you get?
 
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Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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#40
I think an HBM2 APU is inevitable, in one format or another, but I'm not convinced it happens in 2017. 2018 maybe
 

The Stilt

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2015
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#41
GDDR5X was IMO the last nail to HBM's coffin. Most likely it will be just like GDDR4, which got replaced before it ever gained popularity. What AMD needs is 64MB - 128MB eDRAM as a buffer and a fast enough system memory interface where it can be flushed into.

I'm pleased to see that AMD has finally realized that they have been wasting power and die area for several years by using too large GPU in their APUs, in relation to the available bandwidth. I expected them to run around like the headless chicken they've been in the past, with Raven too (i.e 16 GCU+) The iGPU of the fastest Steamroller APUs (A10-78-70/90K) can be saturated only up to < 66% by the bandwidth available at the unofficial DDR-2400 frequency.

The situation will improve, however the 2933 - 3200MHz DDR4 still doesn't provide anywhere near the bandwidth they need.
 
Apr 27, 2000
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#42
Next xbox apu?

If it just supports quad channel, then memory bandwidth shouldn't be to much of a problem. But I doubt that it will.
Who said anything about quad channel? AM4 certainly won't support that. Granted MS could ask for a custom interface/platform, and pay for it . . .

The situation will improve, however the 2933 - 3200MHz DDR4 still doesn't provide anywhere near the bandwidth they need.
And that assumes that OEMs won't dick over their own machines with single-channel implementations.
 

Shivansps

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
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#43
Its kinda OK, the current A10s have 512SP, and they perform nearly identical to A8s 384SP, not even DDR3-2400 is enoght.

704SP i think they are targeting for a R7 360 equivalent on GCN 4th arch, but with DDR4-3200 its gona be starved to death.
 
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sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
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#44
It would be funny if a year from now we see systems that offer one channel of DDR4-3200.
 

mikk

Platinum Member
May 15, 2012
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#45
this APU will also run on DDR4 up to 3200 speed

Where does it imply it will run out of the box 3200? Maybe it means it can be overclocked up to DDR4-3200. Not to mention that DDR4-3200 (SO-DIMM) for mobile isn't feasible for OEMs because of availability and price.


I'm a bit surprised about the 704 SPs, I thought AMD goes higher than this for their 14nm next gen APU.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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#46
Dual Core Intel Core i5 Iris Graphics 6th Gen Skylake (Core i5 6360U 15W TDP and Core i5 6267U 28W TDP) have a recommended price of $305
The high prices on the 28W parts are due to "top-end" tax, rather than that they need to price it like that. Its clearly not meant to be mainstream, considering it goes into $1500+ devices.

You do have a reasonable argument there but 10-15%(especially on a CPU) can make the difference of being a spectacular product or a mediocre one. And just like with Polaris, we don't know how the product will perform until the release. Many outsiders will speculate, and many so-called "insiders" will lie.

The amount of bandwidth you gain with ED ram vs really good DDR4 or gDDR5 is minimal. ED ram made sense a couple of years ago but now its use is becomming less and less.
They claim their current eDRAM is equivalent to memory with 100-130GB/s bandwidth, due to being a cache. The idea seems sound, but Intel is just being greedy by pricing it out of the range of practically everyone.

Anyways, next year means Cannonlake. Cannonlake is rumored to have a 8 core part with iGPU. That IMO essentially means all their lineups today will have double the amount of cores next year. 2-->4, 4-->8.
 
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Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
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#48
Due to 14nm FF + ZEN mArchitecture and HBM2, this APU with just Quad Core + Polaris (11 CUs) will be more than fine for 15W to 45W TDP for Laptops. It will also command a premium price for the high-end 15W TDP Laptops.
There is no HBM2. It will use up to DDR4-3200. Even with compression it will still be bandwidth limited relative to Polaris 11, and we have yet to see how much 4 Zen cores will use out of that 15-45W TDP target.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,151
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#49
Where does it imply it will run out of the box 3200? Maybe it means it can be overclocked up to DDR4-3200. Not to mention that DDR4-3200 (SO-DIMM) for mobile isn't feasible for OEMs because of availability and price.
Agreed. Is DDR4-3200 even a JEDEC standard? Very few notebook OEMs will use it, let alone in dual-channel.

I'm a bit surprised about the 704 SPs, I thought AMD goes higher than this for their 14nm next gen APU.
I also thought they had more headroom here after their emphasis on process + architecture efficiency gains (up to 2.8x) with Polaris. 704 SPs is 'only' 37.5% more than the current 512 SPs config had for years now. Let's not forget it will face Cannonlake in notebooks next year, rumoured to pack up to 40 EUs in GT2 config (up from 24 EUs with Skylake/Kaby Lake).
 

mikk

Platinum Member
May 15, 2012
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#50
Very few notebook OEMs will use it, let alone in dual-channel.

Zero notebook will use it. Practically DDR4-2133 and DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM is available in mass for a reasonable price, in a year DDR4-2666 SO-DIMM might be feasible but that's it. And even this might be too high because Kabylake goes up to DDR4-2400, means demand for higher SO-DIMM DDR4 is limited.


If there really is a DDR4-3200 out of the box support, then it is more likely referred to desktop where such modules are cheap and available. Although I'm sceptical, it could be also the maximum with OC.
 


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