AMD Q4/2013 Desktop Roadmap

[cytg111]

... Always the next thing will make AMD win.

Lets see where Mantle goes, if anywhere at all. The BF4 patch is already MIA. No performance numbers, just a lot of the usual hype and lack of delivery...

Someone needs to drink their own koolaid. Hard. Same thing happens with upcoming intel products, we project and estimate best and worst case scenarios.. as for example with haswell - that didnt quite live up to expectations/projections or should we call it hype? Cause Shintai didnt hype haswell at all, right? Miniscule IPC increase, the "K" model is a joke, runs hot and throttles at stock. "Lack of delivery", please, you've allready done the googling so Im sure you know that a potential delay is likely tied to other faults with the game. It happens! Delays. To intel too.

This just sounds like you hyping a delayed mantle patch before the fact, before it is actually delayed. What do we usually call that? Oh yea ..

 

[frozentundra123456]

Well in all fairness, if the revealed specs of Kaveri are true, it would make a compelling product. I'm upgrading my current HTPC (2009 era) and can afford to wait the 2 weeks to see Kaveri benchmarks.

Why is it compelling? Could be a nice fit for HTPC uses, but otherwise, unless one insists on gaming on the igp (a bad choice on the desktop) I dont really see anything compelling about it. Still in the same limbo that other AMD apus are. More igp than casual users need, but easily beaten for any graphical intensive uses by a low end Athlon 750k and a HD 7750. Could be some mantle or HSA magic that solves its bandwidth restrictions, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[NaroonGTX]

>>but easily beaten for any graphical intensive uses by a low end Athlon 750k and a HD 7750.

Why do people always say this? An Athlon x4 750/760k are nothing more than the very same APU's that people downplay, just with the iGPU shut off due to being defective. Yeah, the Athlons are a bit cheaper, but that's about it. I for one like knowing that if my dGPU were to die, I could still game adequately on the iGPU.

 

[NTMBK]

>>but easily beaten for any graphical intensive uses by a low end Athlon 750k and a HD 7750.

Why do people always say this? An Athlon x4 750/760k are nothing more than the very same APU's that people downplay, just with the iGPU shut off due to being defective. Yeah, the Athlons are a bit cheaper, but that's about it. I for one like knowing that if my dGPU were to die, I could still game adequately on the iGPU.

Not sure about your local pricing, but in the UK a 6800K is ~£100 but the 760K is ~£60- a fairly substantial saving.

 

[USER8000]

Not sure about your local pricing, but in the UK a 6800K is ~£100 but the 760K is ~£60- a fairly substantial saving.

The A10 5800K is around £85 now on Ebuyer and the A10 6790K around £90 to £95:

http://www.ebuyer.com/398761-amd-a10-5800k-black-edition-retail-boxed-processor-ad580kwohjbox
http://www.ebuyer.com/613494-amd-a1...l2-cache-retail-boxed-processor-ad679kwohlbox

The X4 760K is around £59:

http://www.ebuyer.com/search?q=x4+760k

The X4 760K and A10 5800K have more or less the same CPU sections.

So for around £26,you get a decent IGP.

The A8 5600K has a slightly slower CPU section but costs £65:

http://www.ebuyer.com/398815-amd-a8...-socket-fm2-4mb-l2-cache-retail-ad560kwohjbox

The A8 5600K looks quite decent value for money IMHO.

 

[Sweepr]

Pretty sure that they aren't worried about another 12.5% performance the next gen atoms will have over Fail Trail

You are basing this 12,5% on a rumour about Cherry Trail-T's max Turbo clock (2.7GHz vs Bay Trail-T's 2.4GHz). Let me throw a few facts at you:

1) Bay Trail-T cant sustain 2.4GHz under all circunstances, if the new top model (Cherry Trail-T) has ~2GHz base clock and 2.7GHz Turbo it would have >25% higher clocks than Bay Trail-T when both CPU and GPU are stressed. Point is, we dont know the base clocks or Turbo details yet.
2) Most tablets use the lower-end Z3740 with 1.8GHz max Turbo clock instead of 2.4GHz Z3770s. Theres a massive gap here (Z3770 is >20% faster on average). Intel could release a lower-end Cherry Trail-T with closer clocks to the most expensive model this time. A 2.2-2.4GHz turbo clock would allow a greater performance bump for Z3740's successor than Z3770 vs hyphothetical 2.7GHz top bin Cherry Trail-T and this model should be the most popular.
3) We dont know if Cherry Trail-T is a straight shrink or if there will be some IPC improvements.
4) They need massive improvements on the GPU side and that looks like their main focus. Cherry Trail has 4 times the number of execution units of Bay Trail (16 vs 4) and a new gfx architecture on top of that. The performance bump will be way bigger than 12,5% here. They are probably doing this to counter 2014 ARM parts cause it looks like AMD will be stuck with sub A4-5000 (A4-5000 scores ~590-610 pts @ 3DMark 11) levels of GPU performance for their 2014/2015 Mullins tablet chip.
5) If the new roadmap is right 28nm Beema/Mullins is directly competing with two generations of 14nm products (2014 Airmont and 2015 Goldmont).

 

[frozentundra123456]

>>but easily beaten for any graphical intensive uses by a low end Athlon 750k and a HD 7750.

Why do people always say this? An Athlon x4 750/760k are nothing more than the very same APU's that people downplay, just with the iGPU shut off due to being defective. Yeah, the Athlons are a bit cheaper, but that's about it. I for one like knowing that if my dGPU were to die, I could still game adequately on the iGPU.

How about twice the performance in gaming of the A10, and even assuming an optimistic 30% improvement for Kaveri, still 50 percent faster? And that 50% is at the low end already, so it can easily make the difference between playable and not playable at 1080p for graphically intensive games. I could ask the same question: why do people keep promoting APUs for gaming on the desktop when a low cost cpu and discrete card are so much more competent?

 

[AtenRa]

.Bay Trail-T........Cherry Trail-T.......Z3770......

The subject of this thread is about AMDs Desktop Roadmap, Intel Tablet products are irrelevant.

 

[AtenRa]

How about twice the performance in gaming of the A10

And double the power consumption :whiste:

I could ask the same question: why do people keep promoting APUs for gaming on the desktop when a low cost cpu and discrete card are so much more competent?

For Slim SSF, Lower Power Consumption. Also Kaveri may have fixed the Hybrid CF (due to GCN in both the APU and dGPU) and be even better value than Athlon + HD7750.

 

[frozentundra123456]

And double the power consumption :whiste:



For Slim SSF, Lower Power Consumption. Also Kaveri may have fixed the Hybrid CF (due to GCN in both the APU and dGPU) and be even better value than Athlon + HD7750.

Strange you now are concerned about modestly increased power consumption for much greater performance, when the much higher power consumption of the FX 8xxx and 9xxx compared to intel *for equal or usually lesser performance* does not seem to concern you.


As for hybrid crossfire, AMD has been touting it for years with out fixing it. Kaveri may change that, but we have to wait for objective data.

 

[AtenRa]

Strange you now are concerned about modestly increased power consumption for much greater performance, when the much higher power consumption of the FX 8xxx and 9xxx compared to intel *for equal or usually lesser performance* does not seem to concern you.

It is another thing to have double the power consumption and another thing to have 50W more out of 300-400W total. Not to mention I was talking about SFF systems where higher power means higher case temperatures and that get you higher sound levels.

We may not care that much about power usage in high-end Gaming systems but we care about power consumption and heat output in SFF systems. Also, lower consumption is crucial for SFF systems due to very small power supplies and small cases where heat can build up instantaneous and affect the performance and longevity of the hardware.

 

[Ajay]

20nm in itself doesnt do anything to IPC. Also 65W limit the frequency potential it might unlock.

Of course not - and I didn't say it did. I was referring to some recent discussions where some believe that GF 20nm will allow better clocks than it's 28nm process. As far as 65W TDP goes, it really depends on the electrostatics and leakage @ 20nm. If both are favorable, it's possible to get lower power and a bit of a clock increase (which may be the case with Intel's 22-14nm transition). I realize that GF's record isn't good, but it sounds like allot of effort has been put into the 20nm process - so we'll see if they are improving or not.

 

[Chiropteran]

Hawaii destroyed nVidia and so on.

There goes any credibility you still had. Are you really calling hawaii a failure on par with bulldozer? It's been a wild success, good luck even buying one at retail price because they have all been sold out.

 

[ShintaiDK]

There goes any credibility you still had. Are you really calling hawaii a failure on par with bulldozer? It's been a wild success, good luck even buying one at retail price because they have all been sold out.

The hype didnt turn into the product did it?

Its easy to buy one. Even at low price, when you are outside the litecoin demand countries.

http://www.komplett.dk/search?q=290

You can buy atleast the first 500 cards from that site. All in stock.

 

[Chiropteran]

Its easy to buy one. Even at low price, when you are outside the litecoin demand countries.

You don't know what "easy" actually means, do you?

If you have to leave your home country and travel across an ocean to find video cards at retail price, that isn't by any stretch of the word "easy".

 

[ShintaiDK]

You don't know what "easy" actually means, do you?

If you have to leave your home country and travel across an ocean to find video cards at retail price, that isn't by any stretch of the word "easy".

USA is a minority market and not an indicator at all for global demand. Its barely what, 10-15%?

Its you who claimed it was sold out and impossible to buy. Its simply not true for the wast majority of the world outside the little cluster that accounts for 5% of the population.

 

[Chiropteran]

USA is a minority market and not an indicator at all for global demand. Its barely what, 10-15%?

Its you who claimed it was sold out and impossible to buy. Its simply not true for the wast majority of the world outside the little cluster that accounts for 5% of the population.

If US market is such a minority, what does that make your example from Denmark? Rather hypocritical to claim that USA is too small to count, and then take a specific example from a country with about 2% the population.

This website is in English, and generally focused on US available products and such, I don't think it's unreasonable to speak in terms that make sense for such.

And my claim was that it was sold out at retail price, of course you can buy them above retail.

 

[ShintaiDK]

If US market is such a minority, what does that make your example from Denmark? Rather hypocritical to claim that USA is too small to count, and then take a specific example from a country with about 2% the population.

This website is in English, and generally focused on US available products and such, I don't think it's unreasonable to speak in terms that make sense for such.

And my claim was that it was sold out at retail price, of course you can buy them above retail.

You can buy it all over europe at retail prices.
http://geizhals.at/eu/

You can also buy it in asia at retail prices.

 

[Homeles]

Chiro, it'd be a good idea to learn what the word "minority" means.

 

[Chiropteran]

Chiro, it'd be a good idea to learn what the word "minority" means.

I know what the word means, but it has to be in reference to something. For the entire world population, sure 15% is a minority. For the population of people who read Anandtech and buy products reviewed here? I think USA accounts for far more than 15%, and I think it's debatable whether it's a minority at all in that case.

Anyway, that is beside the point. If USA is unimportant to Shintai because it's a minority, than the much much smaller minority market of Denmark is completely irrelevant.

You can buy it all over europe at retail prices.
http://geizhals.at/eu/

Are you joking? Just looked at the 290x. Even disregarding shipping, the cheapest model there is the same price as newegg, and well above the original retail price of $549.99

The absolute cheapest is about $575 based on current euro exchange rate, and the next cheapest is $622.

Stop wasting my time.

You can also buy it in asia at retail prices.

If this website was written in Chinese, Asian availability might be relevant.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Are you joking? Just looked at the 290x. Even disregarding shipping, the cheapest model there is the same price as newegg, and well above the original retail price of $549.99

The absolute cheapest is about $575 based on current euro exchange rate, and the next cheapest is $622.

Stop wasting my time.

You need to remember VAT in the different countries. If you want to directly compare to the US, you need to substract that VAT.

The cheapest as far as I can see 290X is this:
http://geizhals.at/eu/sapphire-radeon-r9-290x-21226-00-40g-a1021693.html

351€ without VAT, or 480$.

Most cards are around 400-410€ without VAT, or around 550-560$.

And again, PLENTY in stock.

 

[Chiropteran]

Can you actually buy those cards without paying VAT? What situation would let you subtract the VAT, like nonprofit use or something?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Can you actually buy those cards without paying VAT? What situation would let you subtract the VAT, like nonprofit use or something?

Business usage. But they can also write off the entire cost over 3 years for that matter.

But if you wish to compare (global) prices, you need to do it without VAT. The VAT percentage is also different across the countries.

 

[Chiropteran]

But if you wish to compare (global) prices, you need to do it without VAT. The VAT percentage is also different across the countries.

Could I buy a card right now, "easily", from Europe and have it shipped over to the USA without paying VAT and with reasonable shipping such that it would actually make the card cheaper overall than buying from a US store?

If the answer is yes, then you have a point. But I'd be shocked if it's true, it would mean you could easily buy cards for much lower than the going rate, and there wouldn't be any reason for there to be a US shortage if buying cards from Europe was so easy. Otherwise, in a "global" comparison, you need to compare the actual end user price. Whether it's inflated due to VAT or shipping or what, it's still relevant to the end user.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Could I buy a card right now, "easily", from Europe and have it shipped over to the USA without paying VAT and with reasonable shipping such that it would actually make the card cheaper overall than buying from a US store?

If the answer is yes, then you have a point. But I'd be shocked if it's true, it would mean you could easily buy cards for much lower than the going rate, and there wouldn't be any reason for there to be a US shortage if buying cards from Europe was so easy.

You can get VAT returned when shipped outside yes. However you pay VAT first, then make a claim, then get refunded by the IRS in the specific country. Do note that there are limitations on internet sales.

Parallel imports is nothing new. But parallel imports would not garantee a lower price.