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AMD Q1 2015 Earnings - 23 cents a share loss, to exit dense server (SeaMicro)

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I went down the rabbit hole, my bad.

So easy to get OT and sidetracked.
I can't really understand why the ADF keeps defending th FX and APU. These products imploded the company, the sales fell of a cliff and today AMD is choking with inventory. Nothing wrong with believing that AMD chips can shine on specific cases, but I never saw a candid discussion by you and other AMD fans about what are AMD chips' weak points.

Few companies imploded the way AMD did. Their CPU/GPU business combined went from 7 billion to 2 billion in seven years. I think it takes a real analytical leap to figure out that there are some very nasty problems with AMD products tosay, doesn't it?
 
Good points but I never stated who would be doing the overclock, do you think business would be buyin pentium anniversary Ed.s with z97 mobos?

It is only fair -atleast for this debate- that good enough for Intel extends for amd as well.

Another note, I also didn't limit the scope of performance to just gaming, this is been discussed to death, the fx chips have a few areas where they provide competitive throughput.

"Good enough" is relative to the importance of the metric being measured though. It is not quite so simple as just saying well, they are both good enough.

And I still think the market perceives (correctly IMO) single thread performance and efficient operation more important than igpu and high (for the price at least) multi-threaded performance.
 
I can't really understand why the ADF keeps defending th FX and APU. These products imploded the company, the sales fell of a cliff and today AMD is choking with inventory. Nothing wrong with believing that AMD chips can shine on specific cases, but I never saw a candid discussion by you and other AMD fans about what are AMD chips' weak points.

Few companies imploded the way AMD did. Their CPU/GPU business combined went from 7 billion to 2 billion in seven years. I think it takes a real analytical leap to figure out that there are some very nasty problems with AMD products tosay, doesn't it?


We all know the weaknesses of their products, lower st perf/hz and lower perf/W, I don't think any proponents of amd refute these facts. What I don't care for is the optics used compared amd parts against Intel or even nvidia.

How does fx compare to hsw? Hsw has better st perf/hz and better perf/W but maybe in some corner cases fx will out slightly outperform it.

How does Beema/Mullins compare to bay/cherry trail? Beema has better st perf/hz...stop!
Why?
Bay trail has good enough performance...so that comparison doesn't matter.

On my phone so I can't quite finish that thought.
 
So I take it this thread is now about usual partisan fighting and not the subject in the title anymore. I think I'll ask for a lock.
 
We all know the weaknesses of their products, lower st perf/hz and lower perf/W, I don't think any proponents of amd refute these facts. What I don't care for is the optics used compared amd parts against Intel or even nvidia.

How does fx compare to hsw? Hsw has better st perf/hz and better perf/W but maybe in some corner cases fx will out slightly outperform it.

How does Beema/Mullins compare to bay/cherry trail? Beema has better st perf/hz...stop!
Why?
Bay trail has good enough performance...so that comparison doesn't matter.

On my phone so I can't quite finish that thought.

FX is a clinical case of doing less with more. More die area (higher manufacturing costs), higher clocks (harder to validate), more power consumption (worse tco) to give the consumer less performance. I can't really belive that someone can think this product is any viable on the market, despite how fun is to tinker with it. And I never saw these points written by AMD fans, quite the opposite, they look for benchmarks to hide the less performance part.

Beema and mullins were steamrolled by Intel cost optimizations in a value oriented segment.
 
What I don't care for is the optics used compared amd parts against Intel or even nvidia.

How does fx compare to hsw? Hsw has better st perf/hz and better perf/W but maybe in some corner cases fx will out slightly outperform it.

How does Beema/Mullins compare to bay/cherry trail? Beema has better st perf/hz...stop!

Why?
Bay trail has good enough performance...so that comparison doesn't matter.
Baytrail & cherrytrail only make sense where perf/w & heat generation is critical, so if Beema can't match it in those areas, then Beema having better ST perf just doesn't matter.

You should be able to understand why when discussing Baytrail/Cherrytrail vs Beema, ST perf isn't as crucial as ST perf is for desktop processors, yet you pretend to not know. 🙄
 
Baytrail & cherrytrail only make sense where perf/w & heat generation is critical, so if Beema can't match it in those areas, then Beema having better ST perf just doesn't matter.

You should be able to understand why when discussing Baytrail/Cherrytrail vs Beema, ST perf isn't as crucial as ST perf is for desktop processors, yet you pretend to not know. 🙄

What portion of new PCs shipped use intel baytrail (celeron/pentium)? it does matter only when convenient for both sides, so don't pretend like you don't know that baytrail and beema don't only just end up in low power devices.
 
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Baytrail & cherrytrail only make sense where perf/w & heat generation is critical, so if Beema can't match it in those areas, then Beema having better ST perf just doesn't matter.

You should be able to understand why when discussing Baytrail/Cherrytrail vs Beema, ST perf isn't as crucial as ST perf is for desktop processors, yet you pretend to not know. 🙄

Exactly. Not to mention the difference in ST performance between the best Beema and Bay Trail-D parts is a lot smaller than Haswell/Broadwell vs Piledriver/Steamroller - and Haswell Celeron smokes both in this metric.
Silvermont is mobile oriented, I wouldn't recommend it over Haswell for a desktop unless you're looking for a cheap fanless box to do basic office stuff.
Of course the inferiority complex from the ADF will ignore this and pretend that I (and others) said otherwise.
 
You can "patch up" st performance by a simple oc, and it helps that a lot of amd chips are unlocked.

Also the market says a lot of things.

OC is a no go for OEMs.

I know OEMs won't overclock (for obvious reasons), but with that mentioned I think more AMD processors should have unlocked multipliers. Therefore, if the product doesn't sell in the OEM market it will have additional utility as a DIY part.

P.S. At one point Intel even had unlocked multipliers on Workstation Xeons (LGA 1366), so I don't see why AMD can't include that feature on a greater range of their regular consumer products.

If overclocking was such a trivial thing why didn't AMD validate their chips for higher clocks?

In some cases AMD might have to raise the TDP....which creates more SKUs (and other headaches).

There is a reason why they didn't and there is a reason on why some users shouldn't too.

On something like a cat core chip, I'm sure most of us wouldn't care if our overclocked desktop SOC consumed more power. So instead of AMD having an additional level of SKUs with higher TDPs, they could just keep the one level and add unlocked multipliers on select processors (ie, convert processors that were previously locked to unlocked).
 
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Exactly. Not to mention the difference in ST performance between the best Beema and Bay Trail-D parts is a lot smaller than Haswell/Broadwell vs Piledriver/Steamroller - and Haswell Celeron smokes both in this metric.
Silvermont is mobile oriented, I wouldn't recommend it over Haswell for a desktop unless you're looking for a cheap fanless box to do basic office stuff.
Of course the inferiority complex from the ADF will ignore this and pretend that I (and others) said otherwise.

yeah with this kinda attitude you guys definitely win. I'm done.
 
What portion of new PCs shipped use intel baytrail (celeron/pentium)? it does matter only when convenient for both sides, so don't pretend like you don't know that baytrail and beema don't only just end up in low power devices.

Actually he has a point. Convenience or not Bay Trail is mopping the floor with AMD's cat line, so unless you can find an alternative explanation for that I don't see why you are dismissing his argument.
 
What portion of new PCs shipped use intel baytrail (celeron/pentium)? it does matter only when convenient for both sides, so don't pretend like you don't know that baytrail and beema don't only just end up in low power devices.

Baytrail and Beema don't make any sense in non-low power devices and I can't see anyone trying to defend their use in such scenario's.
 
The problem with AMD APUs is that they fall into a very awkward niche. For standard desktop apps, the extra GPU power is wasted; they fail to offer any compelling value proposition to make up for the lack of single-threaded performance. For gaming, they're just not good enough, largely due to the use of slow DDR3. A current AMD APU will be lucky to run modern AAA titles at 720p at 30 fps. That just won't cut it.

In order for an APU to provide real value, it has to let players run modern games at 1080p medium settings and get around 60 fps. This is the basic minimum benchmark for a gaming PC. That's going to mean, at a minimum, something like Pitcairn (~1280 GCN shaders) with either shared GDDR5 (which is what the PS4 did) or shared HBM. And the CPU portion of the APU needs to not be bottlenecked by modern loads, which means it's going to need a better CPU architecture than Bulldozer and its derivatives.

The idea of the APU was sound, but the execution just wasn't (and isn't) there. With any luck, 2016 will change that. I believe that the primary reason AMD is playing around with HBM on its new graphics card flagship is because they want to get the experience for future APUs. If it were just the R9 390X, they'd do fine with GDDR5, which hasn't proven to be a bottleneck on Nvidia's Titan X. The eventual goal is Zen (4-8 cores) + GCN (2048 shaders or so) + shared HBM (8GB+) on a 16nm FinFET process, for a good midrange gaming PC on a single APU chip. This will also be the kind of thing that Sony and Microsoft want for the Playstation 5 and Xbox Two.
 
The problem with AMD APUs is that they fall into a very awkward niche. For standard desktop apps, the extra GPU power is wasted; they fail to offer any compelling value proposition to make up for the lack of single-threaded performance. For gaming, they're just not good enough, largely due to the use of slow DDR3. A current AMD APU will be lucky to run modern AAA titles at 720p at 30 fps. That just won't cut it.

In order for an APU to provide real value, it has to let players run modern games at 1080p medium settings and get around 60 fps. This is the basic minimum benchmark for a gaming PC. That's going to mean, at a minimum, something like Pitcairn (~1280 GCN shaders) with either shared GDDR5 (which is what the PS4 did) or shared HBM. And the CPU portion of the APU needs to not be bottlenecked by modern loads, which means it's going to need a better CPU architecture than Bulldozer and its derivatives.

The idea of the APU was sound, but the execution just wasn't (and isn't) there. With any luck, 2016 will change that. I believe that the primary reason AMD is playing around with HBM on its new graphics card flagship is because they want to get the experience for future APUs. If it were just the R9 390X, they'd do fine with GDDR5, which hasn't proven to be a bottleneck on Nvidia's Titan X. The eventual goal is Zen (4-8 cores) + GCN (2048 shaders or so) + shared HBM (8GB+) on a 16nm FinFET process, for a good midrange gaming PC on a single APU chip. This will also be the kind of thing that Sony and Microsoft want for the Playstation 5 and Xbox Two.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I suggested that AMD "go big or go home" on APUs. Bring out some 300W monsters, on a card, that can really kick some gaming a**.

I also agree, that if AMD succeeds with their HBM, that Sony / MS are going to be begging for that sort of tech for next-gen console APUs.

It also makes me wonder, depending on AMD's timeline and success with that technology, if it could cut the lifespan of current consoles short, and prompt their rapid replacement with V2.0 console APU tech.
 
If it means backwards compatibility for old games then it'll be a hit.

I'd personally like to see new APU consoles from both Sony and Microsoft and new games be able to be played on the older consoles in a PS4 or XB1 mode (same game, lower gfx quality).

If that happened the software sales (the bulk of revenue) would not dip and gamers would still have a massive incentive (the software in their hands but untapped gfx potential) to upgrade their hardware.
 
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That is called a PC. But maybe they will implement it in the consoles. I still think there is a possibility the next consoles will go arm though. As a PC gamer, I definitely hope not, but with ARM getting more powerful I don't think we can rule it out.
 
I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I suggested that AMD "go big or go home" on APUs. Bring out some 300W monsters, on a card, that can really kick some gaming a**.

I also agree, that if AMD succeeds with their HBM, that Sony / MS are going to be begging for that sort of tech for next-gen console APUs.

It also makes me wonder, depending on AMD's timeline and success with that technology, if it could cut the lifespan of current consoles short, and prompt their rapid replacement with V2.0 console APU tech.

No major oem is going to touch a 300 watt desktop CPU.
 
Few companies imploded the way AMD did. Their CPU/GPU business combined went from 7 billion to 2 billion in seven years. I think it takes a real analytical leap to figure out that there are some very nasty problems with AMD products tosay, doesn't it?

kind of reminds me of how sgi imploded. i'm somewhat nostalgic and don't want the same fate for amd... but i really don't see how they can recover and be successful as they once were.
 
A current AMD APU will be lucky to run modern AAA titles at 720p at 30 fps. That just won't cut it.

Wrong, many modern AAA titles can be played at 720p with more than 30fps. In fact i will say more than 90% of games can be played at 720p with more than 30fps on $100 Kaveris.
There are even many many games out there than can be played at 1080p with a $100 APU like the A8-7600/7650K.

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Grand_Theft_Auto_V_-fps.jpg


http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Retro-Need_for_Speed_Most_Wanted_-test-nastr-ar_fps.jpg


http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Retro-Need_for_Speed_Most_Wanted_-test-nastr-ww_fps.png


http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Retro-Need_for_Speed_Most_Wanted_-test-nastr-Battlefield_Hardline-bf_fps.jpg


In order for an APU to provide real value, it has to let players run modern games at 1080p medium settings and get around 60 fps. This is the basic minimum benchmark for a gaming PC.

Says who ??? There are more people playing with GT630 which is slower/equal to the AMD Kaveri APUs in Steam, than with higher end GPUs like GTX750Ti.
There are even more people than those in Steam, that play games with Intel HD4000/4600 graphics.

Nobody have realize it until now but for an entry level gaming and HTPC the A6-7400K brings the highest perf/price. You cannot have the same performance at the same price with an Intel CPU + dGPU anywhere in the world. Not to mention the AMD APU is able to be fitted in a slim SFF case and will have lower power consumption and noise levels.

If Intel had those APUs they would sell more than what they sell Celerons/Pentiums and Core i3 now. 😉
 
Few companies imploded the way AMD did. Their CPU/GPU business combined went from 7 billion to 2 billion in seven years. I think it takes a real analytical leap to figure out that there are some very nasty problems with AMD products tosay, doesn't it?

Unisys, although they actually turn a profit.
 
Baytrail & cherrytrail only make sense where perf/w & heat generation is critical, so if Beema can't match it in those areas, then Beema having better ST perf just doesn't matter.

You should be able to understand why when discussing Baytrail/Cherrytrail vs Beema, ST perf isn't as crucial as ST perf is for desktop processors, yet you pretend to not know. 🙄

What about where cost is critical? People don't buy BT/CT just due to perf/w and heat, they do it mainly because they are cheap.
Perf/$ is important too.
 
Baytrail and Beema don't make any sense in non-low power devices and I can't see anyone trying to defend their use in such scenario's.

SFF PCs for primarily streaming/etc.
There are Intel NUCs with the Pentium 1900. While they are devices which don't use much power, they don't have to be (e.g. the Gigabyte Brix using Intel 4770-Iris which is up to 90w system power).
If you make it cheap then it's cheap and small. Low power might be somewhat nice, but it isn't required.

Intel is using Baytrail for cost reasons in the low end NUC, not power use/heat reasons.
 
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