AMD prepares dualcore 45nm surprise - Callisto

[TurtleCrusher]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: magreen

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: magreen
Isn't the E8x00 line of dual core Core 2 cpus faster than the phenom II clock-for-clock at single threaded apps anyway? So why would this cause any worry for intel? If they need to adjust their prices on low end dual core a bit, they'll do so, as they have continually done over the past 3 years since core 2's debut.

That really isn't the problem. P2 is right there clock for clock. Also, it would be AMD's cheap P2 versus Intel's High-end dual core. Intel would have to cut back on profits bigtime. Cutting a chip's price in half cuts profits from a little to even being in the red.

What are you smoking, and can I have some? It must be some trip.

Intel doesn't have a high-end dual core. There is no such thing as high-end dual core. The most expensive dual core intel is the e8600 at $270, and that's because it's almost a novelty item -- it's almost $100 more than the next-highest dual-core, the E8500 at $188. I didn't know that a trip could take you back in time to 2006, when Intel's dual core was high-end. Let us know when you get back!

And what are you talking about with AMD's cheap Ph2 vs. Intel's expensive chip? Cheap is how AMD could decide to price it. Yes, AMD could practically give these chips away. So could Intel, and Intel would be losing less money on each chip, since the Intel 45nm cost a lot less to manufacture than AMD's dual core PhII. And Intel has a hell of a lot more cash to weather a loss than AMD does in a price-war.

Like I said, let us know when you get back.

No high end dual cores? Tell me a better high-end dual core. There isn't. Therefore it is high end.

Also, Intel may have a much higher stockpile of resources, and i doubt they are going to take AMD seriously on this. They will still charge the same ridiculous amounts for their processors. AMD could (and probably will if they market this well enough) dominate the mainstream processor market if this comes to life.

No, there isn't any drug use going on here.

maybe if it cost very little to make, but the cost to make that x2 is exactly the same as making the x4, because it is an x4 with two broken cores.
This makes it much less lucrative for AMD.. this is a market they do NOT want to dominate, its better for them to have better yields and not have enough cores to sell an x2 based on the x4.

I don't think it would be that bad at all. Sure you can make more money from X4's, but even on the X2's you are still selling at a profit as well as furthering market penetration with an AM2+ motherboard. Once that dual-core becomes inadequate, that P2 X4 will be an easy sell to the consumer.

Long story short, you get to sell two processors off to one person. Once they upgrade that CPU, you get to sell yet another motherboard off to that one customer.

 

[taltamir]

I don't think it would be that bad at all. Sure you can make more money from X4's, but even on the X2's you are still selling at a profit as well as furthering market penetration with an AM2+ motherboard. Once that dual-core becomes inadequate, that P2 X4 will be an easy sell to the consumer.

Long story short, you get to sell two processors off to one person. Once they upgrade that CPU, you get to sell yet another motherboard off to that one customer.

*Cough* *splatter* ... thats an... INTERESTING... economic theory...

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: taltamir
niche? what niche? its the fastest CPU on the market, intel just overprices it because of it, but there is nothing niche about it. And they achive it on 45nm, meaning that it costs about the same to make as the amd x4 or the C2Q (well, maybe a little more because of their new gate tech that allows core shutoff).

Niche you ask? A niche market may be thought of as a narrowly defined group of potential customers - according to wiki

In this context, the defined group of potential customers are high end PC enthusiasts. Its the fastest desktop CPU (as you pointed out) that comes with a hefty retail price tag which happens to includes platform/memory transition cost. By no means is core i7 mainstream or else everyone on these forums including your dad and mum will be running i7 machines.. just like quad SLI GTX295s or HD4870X2s which are also considered niche product for a very small market.

For us consumers, production cost means nothing since it holds no real value to us. Retail price however is something we should be focusing on since at the end of the day, this is the price we pay for that particular product whether it costs dirt cheap or requires both your kidneys to produce.

 

[OCGuy]

Low post count + clear fanboy speak in OP = AMDzone sent you?


At least it was seen right through in the first few posts.

By the way, if anyone can prove this quote to me, I will paypal them $100 instantly.

Originally posted by: fusion238
ATI has quickly overpowered Nvidia in nearly every segment of the graphics card marketplace.

:laugh:



I really hope it isnt AMD sending these people over, but who else has a horse in this race?

 

[imported_Asianman]

wow. I wonder if everyone here has a Intel inside. Still, this would not be good on the share price. Imagine selling a processor that used to cost $280 for $80 simply because they cannot maintain a good efficiency. Still, this may actually perform quite decently compared to intels WITHIN the targeted price range, the E5xxx to the E7xxx, having the same amount of L3 cache should be enough to perform decently. But still, making less or losing money isn't going to help pay the debt.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Asianman
wow. I wonder if everyone here has a Intel inside.

Whether we have Intel or AMD inside our rigs, it does not makes us blind or more receptive to blatant viral marketing and laughably unsubstantiated "market dominance" claims.

These threads are nearing monty-python humor level. Bring on the ludicrous speed!

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
but the fact remains that AMD has no answer to i7.

Well the i7 is really a niche market at this point in time so for a company like AMD, it would be economically suicidal for them to pour money to compete in such a small market.

niche? what niche? its the fastest CPU on the market, intel just overprices it because of it, but there is nothing niche about it. And they achive it on 45nm, meaning that it costs about the same to make as the amd x4 or the C2Q (well, maybe a little more because of their new gate tech that allows core shutoff).

Ummm...the fastest CPU on the market IS a niche...otherwise we'd ALL have them!
Niche describes the small uptake of the product making it a tiny marketshare at this point.
The i7 is an "Extreme" chip...it's the i5 that are slated to be the mainstream (and have cheaper mobos).

 

[taltamir]

Let me clarify.

its a niche ONLY because intel CHOSE to make it a niche. At any point in time, at intel's discretion, they can lower the price... They have a factory, it can make 45nm chips. and they CHOSE to make a mix of C2Q and i7 (at about the same cost), instead of only making i7. They are, on purpose, making obsolete designs that cost as much to manufacture, only to sell at a higher product.

So the product is artificially niched into the ultra expensive market.

Should AMD ever become a threat they will just replacing the C2Q with nehalem manufacturing and drop the prices.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
but the fact remains that AMD has no answer to i7.

Well the i7 is really a niche market at this point in time so for a company like AMD, it would be economically suicidal for them to pour money to compete in such a small market.

niche? what niche? its the fastest CPU on the market, intel just overprices it because of it, but there is nothing niche about it. And they achive it on 45nm, meaning that it costs about the same to make as the amd x4 or the C2Q (well, maybe a little more because of their new gate tech that allows core shutoff).

Ummm...the fastest CPU on the market IS a niche...otherwise we'd ALL have them!
Niche describes the small uptake of the product making it a tiny marketshare at this point.
The i7 is an "Extreme" chip...it's the i5 that are slated to be the mainstream (and have cheaper mobos).

If this FUD article is to be believed, then I'd certainly consider i7 a niche product by all applicable definitions of the term.

Core i7 is one percent of all Intel Consumer CPUs

Until Nehalem trickles down into the mainstream market segment we may as well try and argue that skulltrail is not niche...an argument I don't think any of us would actually argue for.

No wonder those x58 mobos are so darn expensive, the unit shipments on them must be miserable low for any given mobo maker, meaning the cost of production plus cost of development is going to be inordinately high as there is no volume manufacturing to offset the fixed costs of developing the mobo to begin with. (just like skulltrail)

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: taltamir
Let me clarify.

its a niche ONLY because intel CHOSE to make it a niche. At any point in time, at intel's discretion, they can lower the price... They have a factory, it can make 45nm chips. and they CHOSE to make a mix of C2Q and i7 (at about the same cost), instead of only making i7. They are, on purpose, making obsolete designs that cost as much to manufacture, only to sell at a higher product.

So the product is artificially niched into the ultra expensive market.

Should AMD ever become a threat they will just replacing the C2Q with nehalem manufacturing and drop the prices.

That's nearly a text-book argument for making the case that Intel is a monopoly leveraging their dominance in the market-place to stifle innovation at the consumer level...by textbook I mean this is exactly what got AT&T busted up.

They had the technology for reducing the cost of long-distance phone calls but they intentionally withheld the technology from deployment so they could artificially and intentionally keep prices elevated and there was no viable competition to force them to bring the innovation to the consumer-level.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
Let me clarify.

its a niche ONLY because intel CHOSE to make it a niche. At any point in time, at intel's discretion, they can lower the price... They have a factory, it can make 45nm chips. and they CHOSE to make a mix of C2Q and i7 (at about the same cost), instead of only making i7. They are, on purpose, making obsolete designs that cost as much to manufacture, only to sell at a higher product.

So the product is artificially niched into the ultra expensive market.

Should AMD ever become a threat they will just replacing the C2Q with nehalem manufacturing and drop the prices.

That's nearly a text-book argument for making the case that Intel is a monopoly leveraging their dominance in the market-place to stifle innovation at the consumer level...by textbook I mean this is exactly what got AT&T busted up.

They had the technology for reducing the cost of long-distance phone calls but they intentionally withheld the technology from deployment so they could artificially and intentionally keep prices elevated and there was no viable competition to force them to bring the innovation to the consumer-level.

yes, yes it is...

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: magreen
There's no faster single core than the Athlon 64 4000+. Does that make it "high end"? Would cutting into AMD's sale of the thing by intel producing a faster single core cpu (such as a core-based celeron) affect AMD's profits, since it would be cutting into AMD's "high end"?

There's no faster Pentium 1 than the 166MHz p5c. Is that also high end?

We can name whatever we want to be high end. But for a discussion of company's profits, there's only one definition that's relevant.

I agree with what you're saying, but want to nitpick for fun (must take advantage of useless information, wish my brain would store more useful stuff!).

The fastest non-MMX Pentium released was the 200Mhz model. The fastest desktop MMX Pentium was the 233mhz model. The fastest P1 chips of all were the Tillamook MMC-1 chips which were available in 266 and 300mhz varieties as well as the older 200/233 speeds!

 

[magreen]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: magreen
There's no faster single core than the Athlon 64 4000+. Does that make it "high end"? Would cutting into AMD's sale of the thing by intel producing a faster single core cpu (such as a core-based celeron) affect AMD's profits, since it would be cutting into AMD's "high end"?

There's no faster Pentium 1 than the 166MHz p5c. Is that also high end?

We can name whatever we want to be high end. But for a discussion of company's profits, there's only one definition that's relevant.

I agree with what you're saying, but want to nitpick for fun (must take advantage of useless information, wish my brain would store more useful stuff!).

The fastest non-MMX Pentium released was the 200Mhz model. The fastest desktop MMX Pentium was the 233mhz model. The fastest P1 chips of all were the Tillamook MMC-1 chips which were available in 266 and 300mhz varieties as well as the older 200/233 speeds!

Dammit, I've been nitpicked. You bastard! I figured I was pulling some of those numbers out of my *ahem*.

I would've gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you pesky kids.
/scoobydoo

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: magreen

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: magreen
There's no faster single core than the Athlon 64 4000+. Does that make it "high end"? Would cutting into AMD's sale of the thing by intel producing a faster single core cpu (such as a core-based celeron) affect AMD's profits, since it would be cutting into AMD's "high end"?

There's no faster Pentium 1 than the 166MHz p5c. Is that also high end?

We can name whatever we want to be high end. But for a discussion of company's profits, there's only one definition that's relevant.

I agree with what you're saying, but want to nitpick for fun (must take advantage of useless information, wish my brain would store more useful stuff!).

The fastest non-MMX Pentium released was the 200Mhz model. The fastest desktop MMX Pentium was the 233mhz model. The fastest P1 chips of all were the Tillamook MMC-1 chips which were available in 266 and 300mhz varieties as well as the older 200/233 speeds!

Dammit, I've been nitpicked. You bastard! I figured I was pulling some of those numbers out of my *ahem*.

I would've gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you pesky kids.
/scoobydoo

Hehehe, it doesn't change the fact that your post was spot-on, I just remember waaay too much minutiae about computers over the years, and love the chance to interject it once in a while.

 

[Viditor]

Just to add more fuel to the fire...
I would have sworn that this wasn't true, but it appears (though it's still only a strong rumour as far as I am concerned) that you CAN unlock the 4th core...

"According to the post at Korean website Playwares.com, the fourth core which is disabled isn't locked and can be enabled in BIOS, thus making it a quad-core CPU.

Screenshots look quite real, and we can't think of any reason why they shouldn't be, but you still might want to take this one with a grain of salt as this might be an isolated case, or some weird kind of Photoshop prank.

Guys tried this with Biostar's TA790GX motherboard, but according to the post, the same thing can be done with any other 790GX + SB700 motherboard. According to the screenshots, all you have to do is to modify "Advanced Clock Calibration" to Auto and your tri-core should become a quad-core. Guys at Playwares.com tried it with AMD's Phenom II X3 710 processors, that has for some weird reason became the AMD Phenom II X4 10 processor, at least according to BIOS post screen"

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: Viditor
Just to add more fuel to the fire...
I would have sworn that this wasn't true, but it appears (though it's still only a strong rumour as far as I am concerned) that you CAN unlock the 4th core...

"According to the post at Korean website Playwares.com, the fourth core which is disabled isn't locked and can be enabled in BIOS, thus making it a quad-core CPU.

Screenshots look quite real, and we can't think of any reason why they shouldn't be, but you still might want to take this one with a grain of salt as this might be an isolated case, or some weird kind of Photoshop prank.

Guys tried this with Biostar's TA790GX motherboard, but according to the post, the same thing can be done with any other 790GX + SB700 motherboard. According to the screenshots, all you have to do is to modify "Advanced Clock Calibration" to Auto and your tri-core should become a quad-core. Guys at Playwares.com tried it with AMD's Phenom II X3 710 processors, that has for some weird reason became the AMD Phenom II X4 10 processor, at least according to BIOS post screen"

Yep, there's a thread about it right here.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: Viditor
Just to add more fuel to the fire...
I would have sworn that this wasn't true, but it appears (though it's still only a strong rumour as far as I am concerned) that you CAN unlock the 4th core...

"According to the post at Korean website Playwares.com, the fourth core which is disabled isn't locked and can be enabled in BIOS, thus making it a quad-core CPU.

Screenshots look quite real, and we can't think of any reason why they shouldn't be, but you still might want to take this one with a grain of salt as this might be an isolated case, or some weird kind of Photoshop prank.

Guys tried this with Biostar's TA790GX motherboard, but according to the post, the same thing can be done with any other 790GX + SB700 motherboard. According to the screenshots, all you have to do is to modify "Advanced Clock Calibration" to Auto and your tri-core should become a quad-core. Guys at Playwares.com tried it with AMD's Phenom II X3 710 processors, that has for some weird reason became the AMD Phenom II X4 10 processor, at least according to BIOS post screen"

Yep, there's a thread about it right here.

Fusion is the future!

I wonder if AMD did this on purpose to be "unlocked" using their "exclusive" Fusion software package. Then all the Intel fanboys would be jealous that they couldn't get a 50% performance improvement through the software (say, 25% overclock, 25% 4th core). Cool idea. AMD says, "give us a little extra money (by buying an AMD based motherboard) and we'll let you have extra CPU power". AMD this way is guaranteed to get the money you would have spent on the motherboard, and you get a little extra speed. With both ways!

 

[taltamir]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... on purpose? yet thats right, they did... And honda hired me to hit new cars with a hammer so they can corner the "new but defective and sold at a loss" market.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Fusion is the future!

I wonder if AMD did this on purpose to be "unlocked" using their "exclusive" Fusion software package. Then all the Intel fanboys would be jealous that they couldn't get a 50% performance improvement through the software (say, 25% overclock, 25% 4th core). Cool idea. AMD says, "give us a little extra money (by buying an AMD based motherboard) and we'll let you have extra CPU power". AMD this way is guaranteed to get the money you would have spent on the motherboard, and you get a little extra speed. With both ways!

Hmm, very interesting conspiracy theory. Plausable, as I would believe that if AMD wanted to hard-fuse off their defective cores, they could. It's a solvable engineering problem, and if AMD can create chips that complex, they can figure out how to disable sections of those chips.

So if AMD didn't hard-fuse off these cores, but instead is using some sort of microcode/BIOS lockout, then the question is ,why?

Perhaps that "fusion238" chap was correct, amd is planning on selling core upgrades over the internet?

The question is, these soft-disabled cores, are they defective, or not? And if they are, why weren't they hard-fused, and if not, then it would seem the ability to re-enable them was intentional then.

 

[taltamir]

Hmm, very interesting conspiracy theory. Plausable, as I would believe that if AMD wanted to hard-fuse off their defective cores, they could

Yea, for extra money... its easier to just do it by software and let crazy people suffer.

And the intel fusion will probably arrive before the AMD fusion. at least it is on schedule.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: taltamir
Let me clarify.

its a niche ONLY because intel CHOSE to make it a niche. At any point in time, at intel's discretion, they can lower the price... They have a factory, it can make 45nm chips. and they CHOSE to make a mix of C2Q and i7 (at about the same cost), instead of only making i7. They are, on purpose, making obsolete designs that cost as much to manufacture, only to sell at a higher product.

So the product is artificially niched into the ultra expensive market.

Should AMD ever become a threat they will just replacing the C2Q with nehalem manufacturing and drop the prices.

I thought a core 2 quad was like 80% of the size of the i7? Plus, it doesn't compare badly in desktop performance.

It's also a more mature design, so it probably has better yields. And it probably costs money to rapidly transition from one design to another. Intel is still producing Pentium M's after all.

 

[Duvie]

This is actually old news....but until our resident viral marketer fusion238 reports it is always NEW news....

This guy is so obviously a viral marketer....just the choice of the wording it sounds like it is hatched in the AMD marketing department...The problem is you have to talk up something so much it likely isn't that great....

As I have mentioned before....AMD was late to the dance again with the phenom II chip and while they can gloat they are better then INtel Kentsfields from 2006-2007, the fact is that is 2 generations removed. It is slightly worse clock for clock against the Yorkfields and Wolfdales and is much further behind the i7 cores. While are we so happy they finally reached Intel levels from 2 years ago?

The AM3 platform and use of DDR3 as shown by many will not be able to save it....so basically get that hexacore out for desktop....as that is the only option AMD will have to gain the desktop lead within the foreseeable future.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: Duvie
This is actually old news....but until our resident viral marketer fusion238 reports it is always NEW news....

This guy is so obviously a viral marketer....just the choice of the wording it sounds like it is hatched in the AMD marketing department...The problem is you have to talk up something so much it likely isn't that great....

As I have mentioned before....AMD was late to the dance again with the phenom II chip and while they can gloat they are better then INtel Kentsfields from 2006-2007, the fact is that is 2 generations removed. It is slightly worse clock for clock against the Yorkfields and Wolfdales and is much further behind the i7 cores. While are we so happy they finally reached Intel levels from 2 years ago?

The AM3 platform and use of DDR3 as shown by many will not be able to save it....so basically get that hexacore out for desktop....as that is the only option AMD will have to gain the desktop lead within the foreseeable future.

Actually, I don't think the OP is an employee of AMD. If you look at the ridiculously worded phrases and boasts, it's difficult to believe the OP could be employed as any sort of professional.

I'll make an an inquiry with someone I know at AMD.

Your other points have pretty much been addressed in this thread, and others like it.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Fox5
I thought a core 2 quad was like 80% of the size of the i7? Plus, it doesn't compare badly in desktop performance.

Yorkfield is two penryn die in an MCM package, total die area is 214mm^2. (107mm^2 per penryn chip)

Nehalem i7 is monolithic die with a total die area of 263mm^2.

Originally posted by: Fox5
It's also a more mature design, so it probably has better yields. And it probably costs money to rapidly transition from one design to another. Intel is still producing Pentium M's after all.

So yorkfield silicon is ~80% that of nehalem, but for yield purposes it is really the yield of the much smaller (and even more yield-able) 107mm^2 penryn that matters as they can then build one functional yorkfield from two known functional penryn at test/assembly stage ex-fab.

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
If you look at the ridiculously worded phrases and boasts, it's difficult to believe the OP could be employed as any sort of professional.

It honestly reads to me as if it is simply written by an individual for whom English is not their first language.

The grammar and word selection is reminiscent of dialogue I have had with Austrians and Germans who seemingly understood English rather well but their own limited vocabulary was a disservice to them when they attempted to explain anything in English for which they were excited about.

Or it could truly be viral, our video forum once had an example of how not all marketeers necessarily meet the minimum threshold of human existence for which we might otherwise expect them all to uphold.

 

[magreen]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
If you look at the ridiculously worded phrases and boasts, it's difficult to believe the OP could be employed as any sort of professional.

It honestly reads to me as if it is simply written by an individual for whom English is not their first language.

The grammar and word selection is reminiscent of dialogue I have had with Austrians and Germans who seemingly understood English rather well but their own limited vocabulary was a disservice to them when they attempted to explain anything in English for which they were excited about.

Or it could truly be viral, our video forum once had an example of how not all marketeers necessarily meet the minimum threshold of human existence for which we might otherwise expect them all to uphold.

I don't think he's ESL. Look at these quotes:

Originally posted by: fusion238

Each time Intel forces their users to use a new socket and CPUs like that used for i7/i5/i3/iX
they frustrate a large number who may decide to "jump ship" or "jump chip" to a competitor.

As for using Deneb core, it would not be surprising to find that users can Paypal $25 or so to AMD and enable another core online! I think Intel and Microsoft do something similar with server chips and software.

If Callisto is derived from the thoroughbred line of the Phenom II CPUs, then AMD may overpower Intel in the range of $75-$300 high performance CPUs that run on either nearly free DDR2 memory or optional DDR3.
* Just an enthusiast (not fanboy) that owns Intel, AMD, ATI, Nvidia systems and parts. Ordering new Phenom X3 720BE with Biostar 790 mb.

No, that sounds to me like logic is his second language. His English is fine.