Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[Thunder 57]

That will just force the tiny iGPU to bang its head even harder and curse its designers even more.

It will yell, "What??? You don't even want to let me wait and relax until data comes from system RAM? How cruel are you????"

I meant a 7800X3D with say a 12CU RDNA3 attached to it. Unless you think 12 CU's is "tiny". I don't know. I'm trying to find @Shivansps unicorn.

 

[qmech]

I certainly understand where you are coming from. Sometimes the market does not address what people want. For example, I would love mobile Ryzen H models without a dGPU. The iGPU would be fine espeically if given more power and the CPU could also boost longer. Unfortunatly it seems everyone thinks Ryzen H laptops are for gamers. This have probably changed a bit since I last looked, but still seems to be true more often than not.

It probably has changed. Depending on your region, Lenovo has several models including the Yoga Slim 7 gen 8 (7840S, a (perhaps low-leakage binned) HS with FP8 packaging). There's also the IdeaPad Pro 5 gen 8 and the Yoga Pro 7 gen 8, both available with 7849HS and no dGPU.

As per Lenovo's usual byzantine naming scheme, the Yoga Pro 7 is sold in North America as the Lenovo Slim Pro 7 (unrelated to the Yoga Slim 7 Pro, obviously), but for some reason the NA models all feature an RTX 3050 dGPU and are limited to 16GB memory, unlike the version the rest of the world gets.

HP have their ZBook Firefly, which is available with 7840HS in North America. As is the Elitebook.

 

[MadRat]

Well then there is always a redesigned CPU package option to add integrated memory. As long as your whole APU package stays fairly compact, why not? Your OEMs would still have the option to create their sub-packaging for their own memory choices. But AMD could offer APUs with 96-bit, 128-bit, 192-bit, and 256-bit memory channels. Two sides of the CPU package could each support up to four 32-bit memory DDR5 sub-connections. Each memory module would require either 64 (for non-ECC) or 72-80 (for ECC) data lines. Standard DIMMs use a 288-pin package but an OEM would design for the APU package which would likely use friendly minimum requirements, especially if they have more freedom to route power to the integrated memory,. PMIC integration allows the OEM to use literally whichever power arrangement they want for the memory all the way down to 1.1v.

The APU could then be single or double headed. Your single head APU bare bottom would support memory on only one side, using one to four memory channels. Your double headed device could support one or both side memory support, with the OEM deciding which. (Honestly either a triple or quad headed device would be a realistic option.) For simplicity sake the cores would share memory via Infinity Fabric. So an OEM could use an APU with much stronger performance than a weak PCIe-based GPU, but openly compete with the mid-tier GPU ecosystems they choose to target. And nothing prevents AMD from starting even simpler for kiosks and other markets.

 

[jpiniero]

As per Lenovo's usual byzantine naming scheme, the Yoga Pro 7 is sold in North America as the Lenovo Slim Pro 7 (unrelated to the Yoga Slim 7 Pro, obviously), but for some reason the NA models all feature an RTX 3050 dGPU and are limited to 16GB memory, unlike the version the rest of the world gets.

More of a gaming emphasis, perhaps?

 

[qmech]

More of a gaming emphasis, perhaps?

The rest of the world gets a choice and there are no other dGPU-less thin-ish laptops from Lenovo in North America that an iGPU-only version could compete with.

Lenovo has stuck gaming fairly firmly in the Legion sub-brand, as well as the new LOQ sub-brand, so the more likely emphasis is "creator" (Pro, but not ThinkPad).

 

[Shivansps]

I meant a 7800X3D with say a 12CU RDNA3 attached to it. Unless you think 12 CU's is "tiny". I don't know. I'm trying to find @Shivansps unicorn.

My "unicorn" was Raven/Picasso. Great performance whiout having to sell a kidney.

On Raven/Picasso we got the best IGP for $150, on Renoir/Cezanne the cost for the best IGP increased a lot but at least there werent that much of a difference. Now we need to wait for reviews ofc, but it is likely that the best IGP will be +$300, and for $150 they want to sell a small die with a tiny igp branded as a Ryzen 5 that may not provide any gains AT ALL compared to APUs that are several years old, and it remains to be seen how well the big/low design works.
And if the 8300G is full 4CU and if it is avalible to the general public or OEM only again.

A lot of people wants to buy an APU, and a gpu later, but when the APU is super expensive that it costs more than a cpu + dgpu it defeats the purpose.
Personally, at least for me, in 2025 im going for the best APU and im going to keep using a dgpu, and the idea is to only use the dgpu in games that actually needs it. But this is a niche case. Not to mention i run on solar power when there is not electricity, what around he is more common that you may think.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

It's disingenuous to throw shade at Cezanne over pricing or availability. It came out in the middle of the worst combo ever; C19 + Crypto craze.

 

[SteinFG]

on Renoir/Cezanne the cost for the best IGP increased a lot

7nm Vega 7 and 7nm Vega 8 are really close to each other, even closer than 12nm Vega 8 and 12nm Vega 11. 5600G has plenty of igpu perf while costing 130 dollars, just +30 dollars over r5 5500 for iGPU that's close to 1050ti.

R5 8600G (6C + 8CU) will probably ~220 dollars for CPU that's on par with 140 dollar R5 5600 and igpu close to gtx 1650 level.

 

[eek2121]

Well then there is always a redesigned CPU package option to add integrated memory. As long as your whole APU package stays fairly compact, why not? Your OEMs would still have the option to create their sub-packaging for their own memory choices. But AMD could offer APUs with 96-bit, 128-bit, 192-bit, and 256-bit memory channels. Two sides of the CPU package could each support up to four 32-bit memory DDR5 sub-connections. Each memory module would require either 64 (for non-ECC) or 72-80 (for ECC) data lines. Standard DIMMs use a 288-pin package but an OEM would design for the APU package which would likely use friendly minimum requirements, especially if they have more freedom to route power to the integrated memory,. PMIC integration allows the OEM to use literally whichever power arrangement they want for the memory all the way down to 1.1v.

The APU could then be single or double headed. Your single head APU bare bottom would support memory on only one side, using one to four memory channels. Your double headed device could support one or both side memory support, with the OEM deciding which. (Honestly either a triple or quad headed device would be a realistic option.) For simplicity sake the cores would share memory via Infinity Fabric. So an OEM could use an APU with much stronger performance than a weak PCIe-based GPU, but openly compete with the mid-tier GPU ecosystems they choose to target. And nothing prevents AMD from starting even simpler for kiosks and other markets.

I personally would love to see AMD release an efficiency focused part that can game. Put 32gb RAM on the IO die (or on a second chiplet) (4-8 channels) along with a 40CU IGP. Pair it with 8 cores and 16 threads and 3D V-cache. Partner with a laptop vendor to deliver a lightweight, power efficient laptop.

I know it will never happen, but that would be a fun product.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I personally would love to see AMD release an efficiency focused part that can game.

This is where the topic becomes so subjective. From my POV 54W max while gaming as well as the 7940HS in the vid below is outstanding -

You can get quite a bit of gaming at 20W too. A few of the latest glorified shovelware AAA won't play acceptably by my standards. But there are 10s of thousands of games that will.

 

[Shivansps]

7nm Vega 7 and 7nm Vega 8 are really close to each other, even closer than 12nm Vega 8 and 12nm Vega 11. 5600G has plenty of igpu perf while costing 130 dollars, just +30 dollars over r5 5500 for iGPU that's close to 1050ti.

R5 8600G (6C + 8CU) will probably ~220 dollars for CPU that's on par with 140 dollar R5 5600 and igpu close to gtx 1650 level.

Big phoenix looks fine, it will depend on the final prices and performance.
Im only worried of what they are trying to do with Phoenix 2.

It's disingenuous to throw shade at Cezanne over pricing or availability. It came out in the middle of the worst combo ever; C19 + Crypto craze.

That was not my intention.

 

[Joe NYC]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1729465837344506135

7940HS was at 2485/11829.

AMD Ryzen 9 7940HS Benchmarks - Geekbench

Is 8940 the upcoming Hawk Point?

 

[qmech]

Is 8940 the upcoming Hawk Point?

That's the belief and the new model# and stepping in the AuthenticAMD string would seem to lend credibility to that belief.

 

[SteinFG]

Big phoenix looks fine, it will depend on the final prices and performance.
Im only worried of what they are trying to do with Phoenix 2.


That was not my intention.

Phienix2 is most likely on par with Vermmer r5 5600, but igpu will be on par with 5600G. 160 dollars maybe, idk

 

[Shivansps]

Phienix2 is most likely on par with Vermmer r5 5600, but igpu will be on par with 5600G. 160 dollars maybe, idk

160-170 would be a great place to have a "666" Big Phoenix, 6C/6T/6CU, that would be a good 8500G.
150-160 for Phoenix 2 is just bad, unless the performance of those 4CU is way better than we can imagine, no matter in what way i look at it. It will be more expensive than a 5600G, and it might even losse against a 5 year old $140 3400G, remember that the 5600G is only better due to the cpu cores.

The only advantage i see of Phoenix 2 is that it might be able to get to those levels of IGP performance with a single, low speed ram. While a 5600G needs dual channel DDR4-3600 to get the best performance.

It would have been nice as a R3 8100G and R3 8300G at $110 and $130 respectevely, with a 666 Big Phoenix at $170 and maybe a 2CU-3CU sub $100 Athlon in the future.

 

[MadRat]

APU is the future for general markets. Virtual machines pretty well are taking over office spaces, so power efficient dumb terminals will only continue to become the norm in the corporate and educational ecosystems. Simpler is better here. The real threat to AMD future sales, as chromebooks have demonstrated, is how easily a phone vendor could elbow into this space. So AMD needs to embrace a product that grabs the attention of moms and dads at home to get Jack and Jill homework machines that are powerful enough to play a few popular games.

 

[LightningZ71]

160-170 would be a great place to have a "666" Big Phoenix, 6C/6T/6CU, that would be a good 8500G.
150-160 for Phoenix 2 is just bad, unless the performance of those 4CU is way better than we can imagine, no matter in what way i look at it. It will be more expensive than a 5600G, and it might even losse against a 5 year old $140 3400G, remember that the 5600G is only better due to the cpu cores.

The only advantage i see of Phoenix 2 is that it might be able to get to those levels of IGP performance with a single, low speed ram. While a 5600G needs dual channel DDR4-3600 to get the best performance.

It would have been nice as a R3 8100G and R3 8300G at $110 and $130 respectevely, with a 666 Big Phoenix at $170 and maybe a 2CU-3CU sub $100 Athlon in the future.

It remains to be seen how high the desktop Phoenix 2 parts can clock their 2 WGPs. With better thermals and power budgets as opposed to the handhelds and cheap laptops and the better memory bandwidth of DDR5 as co.pared to the VEGA chips, I suspect that it'll be very close to VEGA8/5700g iGPU performance territory. That's not a bad place to be.

 

[Shivansps]

It remains to be seen how high the desktop Phoenix 2 parts can clock their 2 WGPs. With better thermals and power budgets as opposed to the handhelds and cheap laptops and the better memory bandwidth of DDR5 as co.pared to the VEGA chips, I suspect that it'll be very close to VEGA8/5700g iGPU performance territory. That's not a bad place to be.

best case escenario we are talking about Phoenix 2 coming into market 2,5 years after the 5700G, what already had like, no gains, compared to the 4700G, in fact it is clocked lower than it, what already provides a minimal gain (5-10%) compared to the 3400G because most of the gains were on games were it was very core/IPC limited, like CS:GO.

The 3400G launched in 2019 at $149..................................................................................................................................................................................................

And the next APU, the 8600G is going to double the performance of it.

 

[Abwx]

The 3400G launched in 2019 at $149.

And the next APU, the 8600G is going to double the performance of it.

8600G should provide 2x the GPU perf of the 5600G.

On the lower side of these APUs the 8300G@25W and 8500G@35W should be at 90% CPU perfs of the 5300G@45W and 5600G@65W, for GPU perfs they should both be in the 5700G ballpark.

 

[DrMrLordX]

APU is the future for general markets. Virtual machines pretty well are taking over office spaces, so power efficient dumb terminals will only continue to become the norm in the corporate and educational ecosystems. Simpler is better here. The real threat to AMD future sales, as chromebooks have demonstrated, is how easily a phone vendor could elbow into this space. So AMD needs to embrace a product that grabs the attention of moms and dads at home to get Jack and Jill homework machines that are powerful enough to play a few popular games.

Those kinds of machines don't need much iGPU. AM5 already has that covered on every CPU on the platform.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

160-170 would be a great place to have a "666" Big Phoenix, 6C/6T/6CU, that would be a good 8500G.
150-160 for Phoenix 2 is just bad, unless the performance of those 4CU is way better than we can imagine, no matter in what way i look at it. It will be more expensive than a 5600G, and it might even losse against a 5 year old $140 3400G, remember that the 5600G is only better due to the cpu cores.

The only advantage i see of Phoenix 2 is that it might be able to get to those levels of IGP performance with a single, low speed ram. While a 5600G needs dual channel DDR4-3600 to get the best performance.

It would have been nice as a R3 8100G and R3 8300G at $110 and $130 respectevely, with a 666 Big Phoenix at $170 and maybe a 2CU-3CU sub $100 Athlon in the future.

Current prices in my country:
6C12T Ryzen 5 4600G - €101.90
6C12T Ryzen 5 5600G - €126.90 (€15 cheaper than 5600)
8C16T Ryzen 7 5700G - €191.90

6C12T Ryzen 5 7600 - €210.90
6C12T Ryzen 5 8600G - < €210.90, maybe €195-199?

6C12T Ryzen 5 8500G has to cost even less, because of 4CU IGP and lower CPU frequencies.
I kinda question, If there is even a need for a 65W model, but that one could be interesting for IGP OC at least.

As I already mentioned, those 4CUs should be somewhere between Vega7 and Vega8, because of ~50% higher clocks and a lot better IPC.

Phoenix2 will cost more than 5600g, It would be surprising to cost the same or even less.
It needs(can use) only single channel DDR5, so even DDR5-5600 will be more than enough, but that one is still more expensive than dual channel DDR4-3600.

I would still choose 8500G over 5600g, but then I would rather pay more and get 8600g.

 

[Shivansps]

Those kinds of machines don't need much iGPU. AM5 already has that covered on every CPU on the platform.

yeah, but still needs something cheaper than a 7600. This is why i belive the 8100G will be one of the best APUs in a long time, with good starting GPU performance for gaming and non-gaming tasks. IF AMD is willing to provide 4CU for around $110... this looks like a very nice APU and a worthy replacement to the 3200G.

 

[Shivansps]

Current prices in my country:
6C12T Ryzen 5 4600G - €101.90
6C12T Ryzen 5 5600G - €126.90 (€15 cheaper than 5600)
8C16T Ryzen 7 5700G - €191.90

6C12T Ryzen 5 7600 - €210.90
6C12T Ryzen 5 8600G - < €210.90, maybe €195-199?

6C12T Ryzen 5 8500G has to cost even less, because of 4CU IGP and lower CPU frequencies.
I kinda question, If there is even a need for a 65W model, but that one could be interesting for IGP OC at least.

As I already mentioned, those 4CUs should be somewhere between Vega7 and Vega8, because of ~50% higher clocks and a lot better IPC.

Phoenix2 will cost more than 5600g, It would be surprising to cost the same or even less.
It needs(can use) only single channel DDR5, so even DDR5-5600 will be more than enough, but that one is still more expensive than dual channel DDR4-3600.

I would still choose 8500G over 5600g, but then I would rather pay more and get 8600g.

Phoenix 2 is single channel? this is not going to cause trouble with 4 memory slot motherboards?

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Phoenix 2 is single channel? this is not going to cause trouble with 4 memory slot motherboards?

Sorry, I thought It had only a single one.
According to Its webpage It actually has 2 memory channels.

Then you truly need only the cheapest DDR5, but that is still more expensive than DDR4-3600.

 

[SteinFG]

yeah, but still needs something cheaper than a 7600. This is why i belive the 8100G will be one of the best APUs in a long time, with good starting GPU performance for gaming and non-gaming tasks. IF AMD is willing to provide 4CU for around $110... this looks like a very nice APU and a worthy replacement to the 3200G.

Why do people want low end APU on a more expensive platform. AMD themselves said that AM4 serves low-end very well. Phx2 costs more to make than Cezanne, and it'll most likely have lower average price. AMD will sooner discount 5600G to 100 dollars than release this mythical "8100G". Also note that AMD completely abandoned Ryzen 3 in DIY since R3 4100. I doubt it's coming back like that. The age of quad-cores in DIY is almost over.