Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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moinmoin said:
How would AMD prevent reviewers from doing so? There are plenty reviewers doing reviews of stuff they bought themselves and as such are not bound to any inane rules manufacturers might come up with.
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I know, but to this day i still belive that it was strange for Steve of GN to compare the 5600G and 5700G on the launch review to everything BUT the older APUs. Fortunately it was not a general thing.

jpiniero said:
Just sayin, but the 6700 XT is on sale at Newegg for $299 right now. I imagine it would be a tad faster than the Phoenix IGP.
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I live in a country were AMD apus has been always the best sellers, were right now the cheapest most generic build possible of a 5700G cost twice the minimum salary (whiout a monitor), a RX6700 even a used one is out of range of 90% of the population, maybe more.

If i care so much about the APUs is because i work with them and that is what people want/can buy. What people dosent want is a AM5 apu with the same performance as AM4 ones at twice the total price, and thats the first thing to comes to my mind when i think of a 4CU 8500G.

And tbh i dont expect anything out of AMD, i know they are not a charity but wth happened with the 5300G for example? And the Athlons? the 3000G is just starting to show up again. It looks to me the are doing every effort possible to raise prices while providing the lower performance as possible, and everyone seems to be on "this is fine" mode.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

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May 1, 2020
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Fjodor2001 said:
What's everyone's expectations with regards to 7800X3D vs 8700G?

1. ST performance difference?
2. MT performance difference?
3. Power consumption & perf/watt difference?
4. iGPU performance difference?
5. Idle power consumption difference?
6. Price difference?
7. Other differences?

Please share your thoughts.
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You do realize that the same chip as 8700G is already out, right?
Just look for a laptop with Phoenix at 65-80W PL1 and you will know or easily guess most of your questions. That shouldn't be too hard to do.
Idle will be better, by why It matters in desktop is a mystery to me.
The only unknown one is the price.
 
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Fjodor2001

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Feb 6, 2010
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TESKATLIPOKA said:
You do realize that the same chip as 8700G is already out, right?
Just look for a laptop with Phoenix at 65-80W PL1 and you will know or easily guess most of your questions. That shouldn't be too hard to do.
Idle will be better, by why It matters in desktop is a mystery to me.
The only unknown one is the price.
Click to expand...
Chips do not perform exactly same in laptop vs desktop. E.g. there are differences w.r.t. what RAM is used etc.

Regarding the questions, the intention is to base the answers on any info available. Depending on the question that can be based on e.g. similar corresponding laptop chips, already announced info, leaks, and/or guesstimates.

If you’re already certain of the answers to many of the questions, please share.
 
SteinFG

SteinFG

Senior member
Dec 29, 2021
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Fjodor2001 said:
What's everyone's expectations with regards to 7800X3D vs 8700G?

1. ST performance difference?
2. MT performance difference?
3. Power consumption & perf/watt difference?
4. iGPU performance difference?
5. Idle power consumption difference?
6. Price difference?
7. Other differences?

Please share your thoughts.
Click to expand...
Gonna go the same as 5700G vs 5800X3D, no difference
 
SteinFG

SteinFG

Senior member
Dec 29, 2021
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Fjodor2001 said:
Not sure what you mean. Same price as what? Same idle power consumption as what? ...

If you are able to answer question 1--7, please do so.
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8700G and 7800X3D will have the same relative differences as between 5700G and 5800X3D (For all points, except igpu and price). The price is $300-$330 for 8700G.
 
J

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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Shivansps said:
If i care so much about the APUs is because i work with them and that is what people want/can buy. What people dosent want is a AM5 apu with the same performance as AM4 ones at twice the total price, and thats the first thing to comes to my mind when i think of a 4CU 8500G.
Click to expand...

I stand what I said earlier - that it would be dumb for AMD to charge less for Big Phoenix than Raphael when Raphael is cheaper to make.
 
SteinFG

SteinFG

Senior member
Dec 29, 2021
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jpiniero said:
I stand what I said earlier - that it would be dumb for AMD to charge less for Big Phoenix than Raphael when Raphael is cheaper to make.
Click to expand...
Raphael is probably not cheaper to make. Binning/Validating/packaging 2 chiplets costs more than ddoing it with one. It's [71mm N5 + 122mm N6] vs [178mm N4], so probably the same cost.
 
J

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
16,804
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SteinFG said:
Raphael is probably not cheaper to make. Binning/Validating/packaging 2 chiplets costs more than ddoing it with one. It's [71mm N5 + 122mm N6] vs [178mm N4], so probably the same cost.
Click to expand...

N6 costs a lot less, and the gap is widening.
 
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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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jpiniero said:
I stand what I said earlier - that it would be dumb for AMD to charge less for Big Phoenix than Raphael when Raphael is cheaper to make.
Click to expand...
Because just as i said earlier, costs does not determine the price.

Just like when they were selling full Raven dies for $50 until Raven2 came along.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

Platinum Member
May 1, 2020
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Fjodor2001 said:
Chips do not perform exactly same in laptop vs desktop. E.g. there are differences w.r.t. what RAM is used etc.

Regarding the questions, the intention is to base the answers on any info available. Depending on the question that can be based on e.g. similar corresponding laptop chips, already announced info, leaks, and/or guesstimates.

If you’re already certain of the answers to many of the questions, please share.
Click to expand...
I told you to check out the mobile chips, you don't really need anything else than that.
You can find both 8C16T Phoenix and 8C16T Dragon Range(Raphael in desktop) in laptops, so just compare that. Notebookcheck.net
If you expect that someone here will give you the exact numbers of desktop phoenix for your questions, then you will be very disappointed.
 
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Fjodor2001

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Feb 6, 2010
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TESKATLIPOKA said:
I told you to check out the mobile chips, you don't really need anything else than that.
You can find both 8C16T Phoenix and 8C16T Dragon Range(Raphael in desktop) in laptops, so just compare that. Notebookcheck.net
If you expect that someone here will give you the exact numbers of desktop phoenix for your questions, then you will be very disappointed.
Click to expand...
I told you it’s not exactly the same as on desktop and also does not answer all the questions. But I have no hope in you contributing with anything other than snarky remarks, so there’s nothing to be disappointed about.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

Platinum Member
May 1, 2020
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Fjodor2001 said:
I told you it’s not exactly the same as on desktop and also does not answer all the questions. But I have no hope in you contributing with anything other than snarky remarks, so there’s nothing to be disappointed about.
Click to expand...
I didn't contribute with anything?
I already provided you a link to notebookcheck, which has a database of results for different laptops and told you what to check out.
You just had to look for laptops with 7940HS vs 7745HX which had at least 80W PL1 and compare them.
If you feared that RAM speed or timings will make a big difference between desktop vs mobile, then you only needed to apply the difference between Phoenix vs Dragon Range(Raphael) to a desktop one like R7 7700 or R7 7700X and you would have your answers.
You won't find more accurate results than this unless you wait for the release date.

From these questions of yours:
1. ST performance difference?
2. MT performance difference?
3. Power consumption & perf/watt difference?
4. iGPU performance difference?
7. Other differences?
Would be pretty accurately answered, If you bothered to check out those mobile chips at notebookcheck.

Only these are left ->
5. Idle power consumption difference?
Idle should be lower, by how much is questionable, but I don't understand why It should matter for a desktop chip.

6. Price difference?
No one will tell you how much It will cost, because no one knows It.
 
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Fjodor2001

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Feb 6, 2010
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TESKATLIPOKA said:
I didn't contribute with anything?
I already provided you a link to notebookcheck, which has a database of results for different laptops and told you what to check out.
You just had to look for laptops with 7940HS vs 7745HX which had at least 80W PL1 and compare them.
If you feared that RAM speed or timings will make a big difference between desktop vs mobile, then you only needed to apply the difference between Phoenix vs Dragon Range(Raphael) to a desktop one like R7 7700 or R7 7700X and you would have your answers.
You won't find more accurate results than this unless you wait for the release date.

From these questions of yours:
1. ST performance difference?
2. MT performance difference?
3. Power consumption & perf/watt difference?
4. iGPU performance difference?
7. Other differences?
Would be pretty accurately answered, If you bothered to check out those mobile chips at notebookcheck.

Only these are left ->
5. Idle power consumption difference?
Idle should be lower, by how much is questionable, but I don't understand why It should matter for a desktop chip.

6. Price difference?
No one will tell you how much It will cost, because no one knows It.
Click to expand...
7745HX is not same as 7800X3D. E.g. clocks differ, and the former does not have 3D V-cache. 7940HS is not identical to 8700G, e.g. clocks may differ, RAM differs, ...

I'll wait for the reviews of 8700G.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

Platinum Member
May 1, 2020
2,696
3,260
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Fjodor2001 said:
7745HX is not same as 7800X3D. E.g. clocks differ, and the former does not have 3D V-cache.
7940HS is not identical to 8700G, e.g. clocks may differ, RAM differs, ...
I'll wait for the reviews of 8700G.
Click to expand...
This nitpicking of your is kinda annoying.
relative-performance-cpu.png
1.) There is only 1% difference between R7 7700 vs R7 7800X3D on average.
2.) Considering 5700X vs 5700G have the same boost, then it's very likely that 8700G will have comparable clock to R7 7700 or R7 7700X in case of 105W.
3.) 5700G provides 97.5% on average compared to 5700X

Conclusion: 8700G should be 96.7-100.6% depending on what power limit AMD will choose (65W or 105W).
This is something you could have found out yourself.
 
J

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
16,804
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videocardz.com

AMD Ryzen 8000G AM5 specs and release date leaks out, Ryzen 5000GT AM4 series allegedly in the works - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 8000G specs uncovered Iranian media outlet “sakhtafzarmag” claims to have exclusive specs for Ryzen 8000G series. The new desktop series powered by a duo of Phoenix1/Phoenix2 APUs is said to be launching in a few weeks. The site is claiming to have almost the full specs for the new APU...
videocardz.com videocardz.com

Questionable source, but here is the desktop Phoenix list. Looks like the Little cores are limited to 3.55 Ghz but the Big cores get 5.0/5.1 boost.

Also says that AMD is making new Cezanne SKUs.
 
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