AMD 'K8L' roadmap clarified

[Hard Ball]

With multiple iterations of "K8L", being released at different times:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34433
--courtesy of Demerjian.

So it seems that what we have been saying for a while has all but been confirmed. K8L will indeed launch at different times for different platforms. And the initial release will be on the old HTT2.0 infrastructure, and that support for HTT3.0 as well as DDR3 will be added on later in the game.

It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

 

[myocardia]

Wow, I've got to admit, that's by far the most informative article I've ever seen on the inquirer.

 

[R3MF]

indeed, be interesting to see how these details shake out over the coming month.

i am currently tied between buying an X2 3800+ with a 590 board in the hope of a quad core upgrade in june next year or just dropping the cash on a 6600 with a 965 board.

 

[Zenoth]

Wait for K8L. Don't go with Core 2 Duo, your X2 3800+ is fine man. Unless of course you really need to benchmark all day long and expect higher numbers, for which you'll need a Core 2 Duo of course. It's not like you'd be upgrading from a Pentium III or early P4.

 

[GundamSonicZeroX]

Originally posted by: myocardia
Wow, I've got to admit, that's by far the most informative article I've ever seen on the inquirer.

 

[Hyperlite]

i think i like that guy

 

[Furen]

Originally posted by: Hard Ball
It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

Huh? That's quite a bit of speculation, care to clarify why you think Barcelona won't include consumer parts? The article doesn't support or refute this hypothesis but I'd bet that if Intel has QC non-EE parts AMD will have to make some, too.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: Furen

Originally posted by: Hard Ball
It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

Huh? That's quite a bit of speculation, care to clarify why you think Barcelona won't include consumer parts? The article doesn't support or refute this hypothesis but I'd bet that if Intel has QC non-EE parts AMD will have to make some, too.

I was wondering the same thing...
Also, the article is talking about the quad core parts specifically. I would imagine that we will see rev H cores in many more things than just the quad cores (this is certainly true if history is any guide).

 

[Brunnis]

Originally posted by: Viditor
Also, the article is talking about the quad core parts specifically. I would imagine that we will see rev H cores in many more things than just the quad cores (this is certainly true if history is any guide).

Yup, AMD has already confirmed that there will be dual core K8L CPUs. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't have any need for quad core anyway.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Furen

Originally posted by: Hard Ball
It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

Huh? That's quite a bit of speculation, care to clarify why you think Barcelona won't include consumer parts? The article doesn't support or refute this hypothesis but I'd bet that if Intel has QC non-EE parts AMD will have to make some, too.

The TDP's listed only correspond to the Opteron line up right now. We will have to see how it plays out but for the moment I would think AMD would use their 65nm capacity where it makes the most sense, cost effective 65nm Dual Core's with the Brisbane optical shrink with some potential tweaks and high profit Server level Quad Cores.

We might get a Athlon FX Quad Core though, but we will have to see. I am going to say I agree, and it will depend whether or not Intel has any non EE Kentsfield for the mainstream consumer space. Also by the time Budapest rolls around, Intel will likely have the 45nm Bloomfield processor both of which are "native" Quad Core. So AMD needs a response.

Also if we are to use the past as a guide AMD will be launching K8L technology in the highest form aka (Quad Core) for Servers first, then over time filter the technology down to lower levels, aka building Dual Cores for both the Server and Consumer spaces.

So for Budapest being the first Quad Core for consumers and UP servers is about the right timeframe. As Athlon 64's followed the Opteron about 5 months later when they were introduced respectively.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: Furen

Originally posted by: Hard Ball
It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

Huh? That's quite a bit of speculation, care to clarify why you think Barcelona won't include consumer parts? The article doesn't support or refute this hypothesis but I'd bet that if Intel has QC non-EE parts AMD will have to make some, too.

The TDP's listed only correspond to the Opteron line up right now. We will have to see how it plays out but for the moment I would think AMD would use their 65nm capacity where it makes the most sense, cost effective 65nm Dual Core's with the Brisbane optical shrink with some potential tweaks and high profit Server level Quad Cores.

We might get a Athlon FX Quad Core though, but we will have to see. I am going to say I agree, and it will depend whether or not Intel has any non EE Kentsfield for the mainstream consumer space. Also by the time Budapest rolls around, Intel will likely have the 45nm Bloomfield processor both of which are "native" Quad Core. So AMD needs a response.

Also if we are to use the past as a guide AMD will be launching K8L technology in the highest form aka (Quad Core) for Servers first, then over time filter the technology down to lower levels, aka building Dual Cores for both the Server and Consumer spaces.

So for Budapest being the first Quad Core for consumers and UP servers is about the right timeframe. As Athlon 64's followed the Opteron about 5 months later when they were introduced respectively.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you said CP, especially your point on the TDPs.
However on the releases, IIRC the single core usually gets the new rev before the multicores (and I can't imagine that the Opterons will be quad core only). Also, they tend to be released within 1-2 months of each other.

I think that the delayed parts will be for the new 16P+ platforms (they're expanding the Opterons from 8way to 16+ way). That would make a great deal of sense as the chipsets for these would indeed take quite a bit longer than anything else...

My own opinion is that we will see most of the changes (except the additional HT links, DDR3, and HTT3) for K8L by the end of Q2 across all the lines. Then we will see the additional changes for Opteron as the platforms finish development.

JMHO

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Viditor
I tend to agree with a lot of what you said CP, especially your point on the TDPs.
However on the releases, IIRC the single core usually gets the new rev before the multicores (and I can't imagine that the Opterons will be quad core only). Also, they tend to be released within 1-2 months of each other.

I think that the delayed parts will be for the new 16P+ platforms (they're expanding the Opterons from 8way to 16+ way). That would make a great deal of sense as the chipsets for these would indeed take quite a bit longer than anything else...

My own opinion is that we will see most of the changes (except the additional HT links, DDR3, and HTT3) for K8L by the end of Q2 across all the lines. Then we will see the additional changes for Opteron as the platforms finish development.

JMHO

Well that is only if your talking about the past where everything was Single Core only so the dynamics aren't the same. But from what we have seen, typically AMD gives new technologies to the server space first then they filter down to the consumer space. Node shrinks are a different story though and are sperate from new technology.

Currently LGA1207 (Socket F), is Dual Core only and it would be fine if K8L were initially only a Quad Core for that space, becuase of the multithreaded nature of Servers to begin with, you want lower performance simply get Dual Core K8's. I am not saying there won't be a Dual Core K8L, I am just saying it won't happen at launch with the Quad Cores as well and not for a few months. It would also better serve to seperate the new architecture and instill that it has a performance advantage over the old one distinctly before you start scaling down. And remember Opteron's won't be Quad Core only, there are still the Dual Core K8's for Socket F to fall back on.

Look at Core Microarchitecture, there are no Single Core variants planned for the Server space, and a Single Core Celeron version is still quite aways off. For the MP there are currently no plans beyond Tigerton that I am aware of and that is Quad Core. Basically Core Microarchitecture is Dual Core only (for now). It wouldn't be surprising in the slightest for K8L to be Quad Core only in the Server space at least initially.

 

[Toadster]

wow a 4 year cycle on a new core, hope it's worth it

 

[Hard Ball]

Originally posted by: Furen

Originally posted by: Hard Ball
It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

Huh? That's quite a bit of speculation, care to clarify why you think Barcelona won't include consumer parts? The article doesn't support or refute this hypothesis but I'd bet that if Intel has QC non-EE parts AMD will have to make some, too.

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: Furen

Originally posted by: Hard Ball
It's also possible to speculate that the initial Barcelona core may not contain any consumer parts, so aside from the new mobile core (Bulldozer), AMD will not roll out new cores for its mainstream consumer space until later in the year. Although the high end parts such as 4x4 / FX may be available at the same time as the Q2 07 release.

Huh? That's quite a bit of speculation, care to clarify why you think Barcelona won't include consumer parts? The article doesn't support or refute this hypothesis but I'd bet that if Intel has QC non-EE parts AMD will have to make some, too.

I was wondering the same thing...
Also, the article is talking about the quad core parts specifically. I would imagine that we will see rev H cores in many more things than just the quad cores (this is certainly true if history is any guide).

Oh, I have heard in the recent past, from colleagues that I know in grad school; who have already graduated into the industry. Some of them are working for chip companies, including AMD. And from what I hear, as much as possible, the server parts roadmap is going to be guaranteed, to be Q2 of next year. But mainstream consumer parts will depend on how the yield turns out; which at this point is not known how much beyond the 4x4 platform, the initial K8L release will include consumer segment parts. But I think they would become a lot more concrete by the end of 06.

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: Brunnis

Originally posted by: Viditor
Also, the article is talking about the quad core parts specifically. I would imagine that we will see rev H cores in many more things than just the quad cores (this is certainly true if history is any guide).

Yup, AMD has already confirmed that there will be dual core K8L CPUs. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't have any need for quad core anyway.

Why's that? Once developers can program for dual core, there will be nothing stopping them to take advantage of 4 or more processors. It's just getting over the initial single-core barrier that seems to be the problem. Multiple core solutions are becoming a very big incentive for programmers to take advantage of. Sure, it will be more work, but having a program that goes twice as fast or able to do twice as much as the competitions single threaded app's you can imagine just how fast it will catch on.

 

[theteamaqua]

now the ball is on programmer's court, programmers, show us apps that are optimized for quad core

 

[hans007]

uh... i work o nthe software industry and as many programmers have said, there are only so many threads in some programs.


you just cant break up an operation into 4 cores. for example a 3d fps game, you might have physics, 3d and audio and ui. but they all dont load the cores the same obviously. a 3 core cpu might actually be more realistic for the loads most apps use unless its something easily splittable like video encoding (because video encoding isnt dependant really on say a past fram, you could probably break up video encoding into 10000 coers if you wanted)

anyhow, it will totally depend on the app.


video encoding is by far the best example to code.

its like if you wrote a program that took the numbers 1 through 8 billion, and mutiplied them all by X and put the product in another place, that would be very much like video encoding.

 

[Keysplayr]

I thought that AMD did not have any product in developement called K8L??

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that AMD did not have any product in developement called K8L??

Basically that is why he put it in quotes "K8L" is bascially Rev.H while Rev.G can still be refered to as K8.

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that AMD did not have any product in developement called K8L??

Basically that is why he put it in quotes "K8L" is bascially Rev.H while Rev.G can still be refered to as K8.

So this would mean their "next generation" core is simply another revision. Just like their "Next-Generation" Opteron, revision F. Wow, they're going to run out of letters soon.

 

[Roy2001]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Wait for K8L. Don't go with Core 2 Duo, your X2 3800+ is fine man. Unless of course you really need to benchmark all day long and expect higher numbers, for which you'll need a Core 2 Duo of course. It's not like you'd be upgrading from a Pentium III or early P4.

OCed C2D beats FX-62 easily, even E6600 at stock speed, man.

 

[Furen]

Originally posted by: Regs

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that AMD did not have any product in developement called K8L??

Basically that is why he put it in quotes "K8L" is bascially Rev.H while Rev.G can still be refered to as K8.

So this would mean their "next generation" core is simply another revision. Just like their "Next-Generation" Opteron, revision F. Wow, they're going to run out of letters soon.

It's a new revision with 128bit FP units and a "higher IPC" core, so no minor revision at that.

 

[Hard Ball]

Originally posted by: Regs

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that AMD did not have any product in developement called K8L??

Basically that is why he put it in quotes "K8L" is bascially Rev.H while Rev.G can still be refered to as K8.

So this would mean their "next generation" core is simply another revision. Just like their "Next-Generation" Opteron, revision F. Wow, they're going to run out of letters soon.

It's probably going to be a similar amount of difference between Yonah and Merom, aside from the cache hierachy, which will be quite a large difference going between rev G. and rev H. AMD doesn't really use K-nomenclatures any more since K9 (the original Greyhound) was cancelled, so that is kind of irrelevant. However, many people in the industry still try to refer to new core designs by new nomenclature following the old convention, such as K8L, K10, etc.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: hans007
uh... i work o nthe software industry and as many programmers have said, there are only so many threads in some programs.


you just cant break up an operation into 4 cores. for example a 3d fps game, you might have physics, 3d and audio and ui. but they all dont load the cores the same obviously. a 3 core cpu might actually be more realistic for the loads most apps use unless its something easily splittable like video encoding (because video encoding isnt dependant really on say a past fram, you could probably break up video encoding into 10000 coers if you wanted)

Xbox360 .

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: Hard Ball

Originally posted by: Regs

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that AMD did not have any product in developement called K8L??

Basically that is why he put it in quotes "K8L" is bascially Rev.H while Rev.G can still be refered to as K8.

So this would mean their "next generation" core is simply another revision. Just like their "Next-Generation" Opteron, revision F. Wow, they're going to run out of letters soon.

It's probably going to be a similar amount of difference between Yonah and Merom, aside from the cache hierachy, which will be quite a large difference going between rev G. and rev H. AMD doesn't really use K-nomenclatures any more since K9 (the original Greyhound) was cancelled, so that is kind of irrelevant. However, many people in the industry still try to refer to new core designs by new nomenclature following the old convention, such as K8L, K10, etc.

Well many people say, including myself, that the K8 has plenty of room to improve. So lets just see if we are right.