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AMD File Antitrust Lawsuit Against Intel
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That just does not make logical sense...I hope INtel isn't resting its hope on this type of deflect issue campaign and spreading this type of nonsense...it would appear their public relations ppl will be as incpompetent as their cpu designers of late..
Intelia just think of the logic of the largest OS maker conspiring with the company with 1/4 the marketshare as INtel...that is just plain stupid....
Please post you LIMITED info on this or cease discussing it...you will amount to be spreading a lie. I can talk about this stuff cause I can claim the complaint as my evidence and CEO's from theird party companies as evidence. what do you have???
amd did a great job with the release, its very readable and pretty specific about instances, i'm not so sure about the profit margins of oems but many of the others are very strong
i don't see how this will go to trial, a jury loves the under-dog, intel would get crushed, they're going to have to settle so intelia's arguments are even less relevant
i don't see how this will go to trial, a jury loves the under-dog, intel would get crushed, they're going to have to settle so intelia's arguments are even less relevant
actually I found some stuff doing a search that made reference to the general idea you talk about but they never said AMD had anything to do with it. Instead the fact was INtel decided around that time they knew better then everyone and said 64bit was not needed. It was Intels delay and subsequently no plan that lead MS to develop a OS without intel. Once Intel decided to change its mnd MS had already had developed a majority of the oS and they told Intel they would not recode it again for something different...therefore INtel needed to copy the AMD 64 bit code if they wanted support...Now it appears they did that but appears they may have fvcked that up as well....
quit spreadinf innuendo and FUD.....
If anything Intel non particpation early on has led to the long delay this software has had getting fully developed...If anything another more calculated actic by INtel to block AMD products from maximizing their strengths....
quit spreadinf innuendo and FUD.....
If anything Intel non particpation early on has led to the long delay this software has had getting fully developed...If anything another more calculated actic by INtel to block AMD products from maximizing their strengths....
Lol, I'm sure Intel's highly trained team of lawyers can find any relavent information without your help.
Besides, Microsoft going Itanic would have required switching architectures, it would have killed competition(as only Intel can produce Itanium chips), drastically hurt performance in the short term, and left Microsoft's OS position rather weak during the switch, allowing a competitor to gain a foothold in the market.
BTW, say if AMD ends the rebate program....what just prevents Intel from under pricing AMD? Say instead of charging $1000 for their Extreme Edition, what if they charged $300, they could severly lower prices on the higher end and still make a profit, and possibly on the low end as well.
The issue is Intel's current practices specifically punished PC makers for using AMD at all, and were not simply rebates regardless. Intel always has the option of just lowering prices, but the problem for Intel now is how competative AMD's processor lineup is. On the high end, AMD has a clearly better product performance wise at the moment, so AMD can actually justify charging a higher price on its top end products, a killer for Intel if they engage in a price war. Its also true that since Intel spends way more on advertising and marketing, this significantly raises their overall costs per cpu sold, and can be a real problem if they engage in a price war. Its no longer the way it used to be where AMD only had a product on the low end and Intel could cause problems for them by merely dropping prices on its low end products, a really agressive price war would really hurt Intel as well now.
videoclone
Golden Member
The 1 and only Point that no one in this forum can argue about is that INTEL is forcing these Billion dollar OEM manufactures to sell ONLY it?s CPU?s and IF they sell AMD CPU?s they will ? STOP shipments of product that have already been ordered and payed for and also put price?s up and worst case scenario ? stop shipments of products all together. putting you out of business.
This is EXTORTION ?. Intel is forcing these companies to do what Intel wants or Intel will Kill them.
They have no choice but to STOP all sales of AMD and sell only Intel.
DELL on the other hand gets special treatment to these monopoly tactic intel use?s for all other OEM manufacturers only because Dell makes intel more money then any other company around.
They take a different approach with DELL because they don?t want it going out of business. DELL get discounts AND A HELL OF ALOT of them twice that of any other company dealing with intel.
Dell will never change to AMD so long as Intel keeps those discounts coming ? and Intel is stuck in an endless loop with feeding the fire it started and doesnt want to do die.
Either way this doesn?t give Intel any right to try and put AMD out of business by Forbidding any other company selling its product without being Penalised for doing so ?.
Anyone who argues in this post for Intel's side is a complete moron and I for one do not want my next upgrade in 5 years time being a Celeron ....ALL because Pentiums are priced to the sky and AMD has been long dead in the CPU market ?.
If ATI hadn?t stepped up to Nvidia after Voodoo killed itself this is what could have happed to the Video card Market.
Intel is trying to kill AMD it wont matter how many local computer stores stock AMD's processors or how many systems the tech people buy..... only the OEM?s can really keep AMD alive. With the large quantities of product they sell.
But they cant do this with Intel holding the Corporate Knife of DEATH to there throats.
Ya I found the same thing . I swear duvie it was there and than it linked to X-bit but i can't find it. I wouldn't lie about such a thing . I been looking 4for 3 hours dammit
Guys I got a confession I have never been to Dells web.I well go to Falcon, Voodoo Alienware these types of PC manufactors but thats all. All of these guys sell Amd & Intel products so who is leaving AMD out of the loop. Dell and HP but I have heard HP sells AMD's. Now I am going to ask a dumb question. We all pretty much know Dell is leading Intel around a little bit . Is this not so? Is it possiable Dell might be dirtier than we are thinking. Last year I swear Dell announced it was selling AMD processors. Was Dell leveraging Intel or is it the other way around. Something here just don't make since. Intel wouldn't dare to short Dell cpu's . If dell dropped Intel would they lose market share? I don't believe they would. AMD would step right in and Dell would just keep right on going . We all know AMD 64 's are good processors. Something just don't feel right. Does any one know what Dell pays intel for a high end P4EE 3.73 . Intel is making hugh profits if there biggest customer is Dell how can they be discounting the CPU'S to Dell and still maintane suck high profits. I think I would really like this thing to go the distance now just so we can all find the truth to all our questions. I think maybe Intel has done wrong and it will come out . I also believe were going to find out way more than we can fathom at the present time . There all dirty and should all be broken up till they learn to play nice. Really AMD is selling a lot of CPU's and there not making any money I understand Flash is holding them back a bit. This thing just makes no since. Really AMD processors are selling good. Flash seems to be there weakness. Does this suite also include flash?
imported_Frallan
Member
I would love that... At least in the short term. The thing is that Intel would have to sell to EVERYONE at that price point.... AMD migt be seriously hurt by that move since they would have to follow but I would Happily pick my X2 4800+ up for 400 USD 😀
The discussion here stumbles about abit. Intelia mentioned the isue there in a post. What AMD has to prove is:
A) That Intel has a so dominant market position that they can set the terms for the market place. In this case AMD will have a huge help from EU and Japan
B) That Intel has used that position to limit the competition in hte market place. In this case AMD will have their witneses as discussed. AMD might also have some help from Japan if the cort there rule in favour of AMD.
Now if AMD fails to prove either A or B the whole thing has just costed the share holder a whole lot of money. [personal reflection] On the other hand look at the amout of publicity AMD gets out of this. I think that even in the worst case AMD will come out of this at break even given the PR that they will have bought for their Lawyers fees.[/personal reflection]
Now can we please discuss Either A or B or at least try not to mix them in the same argument.
Urban Myths
1. MS is holding back on Itanium based operating systems...not true! Windows XP64 Itanium Edition has been a Gold Release for more than 2 years now. While it IS true that the cluster version of Windows Server will not be Itanium for quite awhile (if ever), the Itanium isn't a very good cluster processor...
2. Itanium is a true 64 bit processor and Opteron is not...not true! While it is true that x86-64 chips are "hybrids", all that means is that they can function as BOTH true 64 bit AND true 32 bit...Itanium operates as true 64 bit and emulated 32 bit.
1. MS is holding back on Itanium based operating systems...not true! Windows XP64 Itanium Edition has been a Gold Release for more than 2 years now. While it IS true that the cluster version of Windows Server will not be Itanium for quite awhile (if ever), the Itanium isn't a very good cluster processor...
2. Itanium is a true 64 bit processor and Opteron is not...not true! While it is true that x86-64 chips are "hybrids", all that means is that they can function as BOTH true 64 bit AND true 32 bit...Itanium operates as true 64 bit and emulated 32 bit.
imported_Frallan
Member
And 2 is the reason why the Titainium never hit it with the customers. Before buying a X86 server to add some capacity U dont have to think that much because its just a tactical decision. But when boarding the Titanium U accept a entirely new enviroment and its Big Iron machines were talking about here and by default other requirements are there for that sort of deal since its a long term strategic choice.
videoclone
Golden Member
ATI's 50% market Nvidia 50% market = .. Video cards are really powerful and way ahead of any games or CPU
Intel 85% market AMD 15% market = CPU's are 1 year behind and are the bottleneck to the high end video cards.
Now if only AMD and Intel lined up 50/50 do you think we would see more competition and Intel actually making descent cpu's again.
How long will they milk the P4 ... I guess so long as they can force companies to not sell AMD CPU's they don?t ever need to bother.
Intel 85% market AMD 15% market = CPU's are 1 year behind and are the bottleneck to the high end video cards.
Now if only AMD and Intel lined up 50/50 do you think we would see more competition and Intel actually making descent cpu's again.
How long will they milk the P4 ... I guess so long as they can force companies to not sell AMD CPU's they don?t ever need to bother.
CheesePoofs
Diamond Member
Actually, in most cases, CPU's are not the bottleneck. Especially at the higher resolutions, it is the graphics cards that bottleneck the system. And I dont' think it has anything to do with market share.
videoclone
Golden Member
If you look at the recent Anantech review of the 7800GTX they had to use 2240x2000rez to even show any significant performance difference from the X850XTPE, 6800UltraSLI, 7800GTX, and 7800GTX SLI.
At resolutions lower then that Anandtech SAID ??the CPU was the bottleneck ( and they used the fastest Gaming CPU around ( Athlon FX57 2.8Ghz )
And If you don?t believe Anandtech reviews why are you a member of there forum.
I thought AMD 64 was emilations ! Thanks for correcting me . I also thought that Microsofts O/S was emilated . thanks again.
Anyone got any bench marks comparing Itanium/Xoen/ Oppies on the open source O/S . I can't find any . It could be of interest. I don't care to see anything that runs In Microsoft O/S. Itanium 2 only please
I found anand's latest review of dual cores very interesting.
Lol, what a change on your part, now Dell is the bad guy?
Anyhow, Dell is roughly half of Intel's market, you can bet Intel will do whatever they can to keep them. And Dell has no problem getting great deals from Intel in exchange for not carrying AMD. Most of Dell's market either doesn't care about what AMD has to offer(they're buying a low end computer anyhow, and Intel's rebates mean they're already getting low priced cpus, and power isn't an issue), or they don't know AMD offers a better gaming cpu for the money.
The only area Dell was interested in having AMD was for servers, since companies who buy servers are more likely to know what they want and Dell probably lost some market by not carrying Opteron. BTW, Dell will make Opteron systems on special order if the customer ordering them is big and important enough.
AMD isn't doing that bad though, over the past 2 years not only have the increased their market percentage back up to their peak(in an ever growing market), but they've also greatly raised the amount of money they're getting per cpu. AMD's market share hasn't increased much, but they basically swapped their previously budget market with Intel. I think AMD's main problems right now are that companies are still ordering cheap Semprons from them almost as much as they order Athlon 64s and Opterons, and that they may not have the contracts lined up for when their manufacturing capabilities double in the near future.
Most likely the lawsuit doesn't relate to AMD's current market position, but rather to their last couple years before the Athlon 64, and perhaps the next couple years as well.
With nvidia's new drivers, the Athlon X2 4800+ is actually the fastest stock gaming cpu.
AMD64 isn't an emulation, however it's not a major change in the architecture. It merely adds things on top of x86, those extra transistors can be disabled or ignored and run in a compatibility mode for x86. Microsoft has said the 64 bit version of Windows does emulate 32 bit, however because the architecture is 100% compatible, it doesn't have a major performance hit like it does for Itanium(which has a new architecture and no x86).
BTW, didn't the dual core Pentiums win nearly every benchmark on the Anand's latest dual core review?
I believe the current reviews seem to be showing that the Pentium D's are better for multitasking, while the X2s are better for multi-threaded applications.
imported_Frallan
Member
Given the recent activity on the comments side of AT Im just going to bump this into existance again.
Actually, there is some truth to it.
Itanium (or Itanic, if you prefer 😀) is a native 64-bit processor.
X86-64 (or EMT64) is merely a set of extensions stacked on the aging x86 architecture to enable 64-bit.
There is a big difference there. Itanium runs 32-bit code, yes, but it runs so slow that you shouldn't consider it.
OK...let me get the ball rolling then.
I both agree and disagree with this. The area where it falls down is in the server/workstation sector...
Dell needs to expand this sector quite a bit...it's by far their weakest area at the moment.
Obviously, Intel has no real competitor for the Opteron at the moment, nor are they likely to have for a few years (2007 to be precise).
It's obvious to those who have studied the various companies that Dell's business model is that of a service company that offers hardware as well. Intel's rebate program fits very nicely into this model!
However, if the rebate program were eliminated or forced to become a fully published one with the same targets for all companies, then AMD would become EXTREMELY attractive for Dell! Remember that a service company loses money every time they actually have to fix something (sort of like an insurance company paying out on a claim). With the far lower power usage of the Opteron over the Xeon, as well as the higher IPC for a much lower cost, AMD becomes extraordinarily attractive for Dell.
Let me add something else to the mix that many may have forgotten...
In Feb of this year, AMD appointed a new board member, Morton Topfer. Mr. Topfer is the former Vice-Chairman of the board for Dell!
It makes you wonder how much his input had with AMD's decision to file suit, and how much influence he will have in changing Dell's mind should the rebate program be altered...!
Food for thought
I both agree and disagree with this. The area where it falls down is in the server/workstation sector...
Dell needs to expand this sector quite a bit...it's by far their weakest area at the moment.
Obviously, Intel has no real competitor for the Opteron at the moment, nor are they likely to have for a few years (2007 to be precise).
It's obvious to those who have studied the various companies that Dell's business model is that of a service company that offers hardware as well. Intel's rebate program fits very nicely into this model!
However, if the rebate program were eliminated or forced to become a fully published one with the same targets for all companies, then AMD would become EXTREMELY attractive for Dell! Remember that a service company loses money every time they actually have to fix something (sort of like an insurance company paying out on a claim). With the far lower power usage of the Opteron over the Xeon, as well as the higher IPC for a much lower cost, AMD becomes extraordinarily attractive for Dell.
Let me add something else to the mix that many may have forgotten...
In Feb of this year, AMD appointed a new board member, Morton Topfer. Mr. Topfer is the former Vice-Chairman of the board for Dell!
It makes you wonder how much his input had with AMD's decision to file suit, and how much influence he will have in changing Dell's mind should the rebate program be altered...!
Food for thought
I don't see how making x86 into a 64bit architecture makes it any less of a true 64bit system...could you show me the difference?
The Itanium runs EPIC, the UltraSparc does not...which of those is not a true 64bit architecture?
As to Itaniums slowness in 32bit, obviously that's because it must translate x86 into EPIC and back again...
The difference is that 64-bit on current x86 chips is not true 64-bit. x86-64 and EM64T are merely extensions. No different than SSE, really.
You don't know the difference? Watch XP run on Itanium (64-bit native code) compared to an A64 or Prescott series running XP 64-bit Edition.
You don't know the difference? Watch XP run on Itanium (64-bit native code) compared to an A64 or Prescott series running XP 64-bit Edition.
I have run them on both (there's an older Itanium workstation at one of the facilities I work at). I really haven't seen any difference...
But there is a MASSIVE difference between SSE extensions and x86-64!
Remember that it's not only 64bit instructions but 64bit registers as well...
Let me ask you a different question...is x86 a true 32 bit architecture?
I ask this because it started as a 16 bit architecture...it then had what you are calling "extensions" added to it with the 386 and became 32 bit. Has that made it more of a virtual 32bit?
Just because AMD64 can flip between or use simultaneously both 32 and 64 bit, doesn't make it any less of a "true" 64 bit architecture regardless of how this is achieved...
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