"AMD: EVGA wanted to sell ATI cards"

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Creig
To some extent. But looking around the boards, the 48X0 series still seems to be selling a lot faster than the GT200/9800 series.

GT200 before the price cut maybe. However the 9800 has been out far longer and sold plenty. So without actual sales numbers, this is your opinion.

Only to protect SOME partners. Others have been hurt by it and probably aren't very happy about it. Neither were most consumers very thrilled with it, either. Some of whom might have gone with ATI instead just to avoid the hassle.

It protected their domestic partners from dumping by foreign partners (like Palit) who already sell ATI cards anyways. If ATI truly had green pastures BFG/XFX/EVGA would jump fast. But the sales numbers this year have been horrible for ATI.

From what I've seen, Nvidia was the only one getting high profits from the GT200 series. Although now that the 48X0 series is out, they've had to cut back the gravy train.

I'm sure the card vendors got more than their share of the pie. In fact ATI had to take a loss on their video cards just to compete. They can't do that much longer.

It must be serious enough to cause HP to extend the warranty on affected units by an additional year.

NVIDIA is paying for it and already listed the parts affected. If the announcement comes out soon (as expected) about apple switching over everything to NVIDIA they could even pass Intel among chipsets.

It is if they receive higher profits per unit and/or in greater numbers. And I would have to say the 48X0 series is selling more than the GT200/9800 are right now.

Your opinion is duly noted, but there is nothing to back that up. I say that with the price cuts and the 9800 being out much longer has probably sold more units. In fact the sales numbers just released for the last quarter show me to be correct.

Oh, I forgot to also mention the GTX280 overheating issues.

Do a search on 4850 heat issues. :laugh:

You will get a few hundred threads.

Here are the facts NVIDA has 31.4% of the market compared to ATI's 18.1%.

So unless you can link to a fact to dispute any of this, I very much doubt EVGA would want to leave a gravy train for a sinking ship. If you think I'm being harsh with that statement you might want to read this article.
http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/15108

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
While a lifetime warranty is certainly nice, I bet most people here don't keep their cards much longer then a year.

Nope mine last my lifetime. My x800xtpe is still running my brothers cheap avi machine nicely. :laugh:

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
While a lifetime warranty is certainly nice, I bet most people here don't keep their cards much longer then a year.

Nope mine last my lifetime. My x800xtpe is still running my brothers cheap avi machine nicely. :laugh:

Yeah maybe not in my main machine, but my cards stay around in many other computers that I use.

I still have a 4200ti that is running my Linux box.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
GT200 before the price cut maybe. However the 9800 has been out far longer and sold plenty. So without actual sales numbers, this is your opinion.

I'm not talking about sales figures prior to the release of the 48X0 series. I'm talking about current numbers. It's kind of hard to accurately compare sales figures of the GT200/9800 series versus the 48X0 if you include those cards sold BEFORE the 48X0 was released, isn't it?

Originally posted by: Wreckage
It protected their domestic partners from dumping by foreign partners (like Palit) who already sell ATI cards anyways. If ATI truly had green pastures BFG/XFX/EVGA would jump fast. But the sales numbers this year have been horrible for ATI.

? So now the 48X0 series is selling horribly? That's news to me. Or are you trying to include pre-48X0 numbers again in another attempt to try and fudge the numbers in Nvidia's favor?

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I'm sure the card vendors got more than their share of the pie. In fact ATI had to take a loss on their video cards just to compete. They can't do that much longer.

Link to the "ATI taking a loss on their cards" statement? Everything out there says that ATI has been getting excellent yields on their 55nm GPUs while Nvidia has been struggling with low yields on their 65nm process. So ATI has THREE advantages over Nvidia here:

1) ATI's complete lineup is on the 55nm process while Nvidia is still on 65nm with the exception of the 9800GTX+. This means that ATI can get more cores per wafer.

2) ATI is reputed to be getting excellent yields on their GPUs while Nvidia is said to be struggling to get 40% good cores per wafer. So ATI is getting even more viable cores per wafer then Nvidia.

3) ATI's 4870 has 956 million transistors while Nvidia's GTX280 has 1.4 billion. That means ATI once again gets more cores per wafer.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
NVIDIA is paying for it and already listed the parts affected. If the announcement comes out soon (as expected) about apple switching over everything to NVIDIA they could even pass Intel among chipsets.

Well, for starters, this is all just speculation at this point. And not everybody agrees that Apple is actually considering this. I personally find it hard to believe as Intel chipsets are generally considered suprior to those from Nvidia. And even if Apple strangely does go with Nvidia, that still won't give them the sales numbers they need to pass Intel.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Your opinion is duly noted, but there is nothing to back that up. I say that with the price cuts and the 9800 being out much longer has probably sold more units. In fact the sales numbers just released for the last quarter show me to be correct.

Why do you keep insisting on including pre-48X0 numbers? If you look at the sales numbers SINCE THE 48X0 HAS BEEN RELEASED, I'm sure ATI will be on top. That is what we are discussing here, isn't it? If not, then I'll throw in some 9700 Pro vs FX5800 figures just to completely throw off this discussion.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Do a search on 4850 heat issues. :laugh:

You will get a few hundred threads.

Oh, I don't deny that there are heat issues with the 4850. As a matter of fact, it's nearly the exact same situation that the 8800GT was in upon release. And just like the 8800GT, vendors are releasing BIOS updates to increase fan speeds and ATI's Cat 8.8 is purported to have PowerPlay working properly.

Neither of those software solutions will help the GTX280 however as these faulty cards hit 105C even with the fan running 100%. An RMA is the only way to fix those cards, and there seem to be a LOT of them.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Here are the facts NVIDA has 31.4% of the market compared to ATI's 18.1%.

And I'll be willing to bet these figures you're quoting are once again pre-48X0 release. Let's see something a bit more current and watch how the numbers change in ATI's favor.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
So unless you can link to a fact to dispute any of this, I very much doubt EVGA would want to leave a gravy train for a sinking ship. If you think I'm being harsh with that statement you might want to read this article.
http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/15108

I thought we were looking at video card sales. Your link is talking about ATI's Consumer Electronics division and investment charges. So unless eVGA sells handhelds or digital televisions, I don't see how your link backs up anything we've been talking about.

But if you would like to read a link that actually backs up what I've been saying, here you go:

Nvidia's meltdown

I don't mind countering your arguments, but please try to keep on topic and stop deliberately trying to cloud the discussion by including sales figures that shouldn't be factored in.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Creig Or are you trying to include pre-48X0 numbers again in another attempt to try and fudge the numbers in Nvidia's favor?

So you are saying video card sales for the year should only be counted when the 48xx was released?

Would that not be trying to "fudge the numbers" in AMD's favor?

If anyone out there truly thinks that a card released one month ago will be the savior of an entire company....I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

and now the widespread failures of their laptop GPUs,

Which turned out to be limited not "widespread"

Got any links to back that up? The newer information coming out seems to indicate the problem is WORSE than initially reported.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Creig Or are you trying to include pre-48X0 numbers again in another attempt to try and fudge the numbers in Nvidia's favor?

So you are saying video card sales for the year should only be counted when the 48xx was released?

No, I thought we were discussing ATI's CURRENT video card sales figures to Nvidia's CURRENT video card sales figures. Pre-48X0 belonged to Nvidia and I don't think anybody else will say differently. But since the 48X0 series was released, things have completely turned around 180 degrees.

Or are you going to try and dispute even that? :roll:

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Wreckage

and now the widespread failures of their laptop GPUs,

Which turned out to be limited not "widespread"

Got any links to back that up? The newer information coming out seems to indicate the problem is WORSE than initially reported.

Got any links to back that up?

Orginally the Inq said all GPUs were affected when it turns out that only a limited number of chips were.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...mass-gpu-failures.html

So there's my link. I await yours.

 

[bryanW1995]

I've got 200 million reasons to say that you're wrong.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Creig


No, I thought we were discussing ATI's CURRENT video card sales figures to Nvidia's CURRENT video card sales figures. Pre-48X0 belonged to Nvidia and I don't think anybody else will say differently. But since the 48X0 series was released, things have completely turned around 180 degrees.

Or are you going to try and dispute even that? :roll:

Well then by your logic we should only count when the NVIDIA price drops took affect.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Creig


No, I thought we were discussing ATI's CURRENT video card sales figures to Nvidia's CURRENT video card sales figures. Pre-48X0 belonged to Nvidia and I don't think anybody else will say differently. But since the 48X0 series was released, things have completely turned around 180 degrees.

Or are you going to try and dispute even that? :roll:

Well then by your logic we should only count when the NVIDIA price drops took affect.

Whatever, Wreckage. You're obviously in full "Protect Nvidia" mode and I can see that no amount of logic is going to keep you from throwing your body in front of the AMD train in order to protect them.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Wreckage

and now the widespread failures of their laptop GPUs,

Which turned out to be limited not "widespread"

Got any links to back that up? The newer information coming out seems to indicate the problem is WORSE than initially reported.

Got any links to back that up?

Orginally the Inq said all GPUs were affected when it turns out that only a limited number of chips were.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...mass-gpu-failures.html

So there's my link. I await yours.

Here's one:
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008...fect-dell-laptop-line/

So apparently it affects more than just the HP laptops. Also, from your Ars article:
"The previous generation... products that are impacted were included in a number of notebook products that were shipped and sold in significant quantities. Certain notebook configurations... are failing in the field at higher than normal rates."

So if they were "sold in significant quantities", it seems the problem is widespread.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: thilan29
Here's one (You can get yourself over to the "NVidia meltdown" thread and find another):
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008...fect-dell-laptop-line/

So apparently it affects more than just the HP laptops. Also, from your Ars article:
"The previous generation... products that are impacted were included in a number of notebook products that were shipped and sold in significant quantities. Certain notebook configurations... are failing in the field at higher than normal rates."

So if they were "sold in significant quantities", it seems the problem is widespread.

Ah yes "Crunchgear" a much more reputable site than Arstechnica.

Why do you ignore this quote " The issue is limited to a few notebook chips only; we have not seen and don't expect to see this issue on any NVIDIA-based desktop systems.
Only a very small percentage of the notebook chips that have shipped are potentially affected, and the problem depends on a combination of environmental conditions, configuration, and usage model."

Game, set, match.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Creig
Whatever, Wreckage. You're obviously in full "Protect Nvidia" mode and I can see that no amount of logic is going to keep you from throwing your body in front of the AMD train in order to protect them.

What logic? Saying that you can only count sales of the GTX2xx & 9800 from when the 4xxx series went on sale?

I'm not trying to protect anyone, I just think your skewing of numbers is misleading at best.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Ah yes "Crunchgear" a much more reputable site than Arstechnica.

Why do you ignore this quote " The issue is limited to a few notebook chips only; we have not seen and don't expect to see this issue on any NVIDIA-based desktop systems.
Only a very small percentage of the notebook chips that have shipped are potentially affected, and the problem depends on a combination of environmental conditions, configuration, and usage model."

Game, set, match.

The article I linked is newer than what you posted, which is why I linked it to show that it affects more laptops than what was initially thought.

Here's one for ya (right from Arstechnica since you love em so much ):
http://arstechnica.com/journal...bile-graphics-problems

The article is newer, and Dell only admitted the problem recently...so it is more widespread than initially believed.

As for your bolded quote, lol, where did I claim it affected desktops (I don't remember saying that but feel free to try to find a post where I did)??

Also, it said right in the article that the affected laptops sold in "significant quantities" so they say both somewhat contradictory things in the article...not sure what to believe.

 

[spittledip]

Jeez, my main problem with this whole chipset thing is the marketshare that will go to Apple. yuk.

 

[MarcVenice]

I suppose we'll just have to wait for some new numbers, don't we Wreckage and Creig?

And Creig, don't expect AMD's marketshare to shoot up, a single generation of videocards won't do that, if they go up even 1% AMD will be happy as hell. I think right now AMD is outselling nvidia's competing cards. In other words, for every 9800gtx, gtx260 or gtx280 Nvidia sells, AMD sells 1.5-2 HD4850's or HD4870's, and 1.5 might actually be a bit high allready, and it could be more then 1.25. BUT, nvidia and AMD are also selling 8800gt's, HD3870's, 8800gs's, 9600gts's etc, don't forget that.

And Wreckage, if you really think AMD is a sinking ship, you don't really understand business.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: spittledip
Jeez, my main problem with this whole chipset thing is the marketshare that will go to Apple. yuk.

http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/15223

 

[Creig]

Oh, I don't for one second think a single month of sales is going to magically erase AMD's debt, make the Phenom more competitive and whiten my teeth at the same time. But I think the almost instantaneous turnaround from Nvidia outselling ATI to ATI outselling Nvidia has caught everyone completely by surprise (especially Nvidia). The last time we had a piece of hardware that sold this well starting right from its release day was the original G80 8800GTS. That architecture basically remained king until the 48X0 series came out. And it's certainly looking like ATI might have a runaway hit of the same magnitude on its hands. The 48X0 series is already on a smaller process than Nvidia (more chips per wafer), built with fewer transistors than Nvidia's GPU (more chips per wafer) and has better yields than Nvidia (more good chips per wafer). And their cards, despite having fewer transitors, perform on par with their larger, more expensive Nvidia counterparts.

I highly doubt that a die shrink on a 1.4 billion transistor GPU is going to be a simple matter. Nvidia is already purported to be getting poor yields on the 65nm process. Can you imagine what their initial yields will be by attempting to shrink an already poor yield product? ATI's new architecture may well be able to dominate Nvidia for quite some time to come since the only thing Nvidia can do for now is a die shrink. If that doesn't cure their yield issues, they're in for a rough time since it will take quite awhile for them to come up with a new design to replace the GT200.

Between ATI's surprisingly good selling/good performing new video card lineup and the string of problems Nvidia is currently facing, I can see how an Nvidia-only vendor might want to start selling an ATI line of products as well (which is the whole point of this thread). ATI is looking to be on its way up while Nvidia's marketshare is definitely declining.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: spittledip
Jeez, my main problem with this whole chipset thing is the marketshare that will go to Apple. yuk.

http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/15223

ars technica - Analysis: why Apple won't drop Intel chipsets any time soon

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I suppose we'll just have to wait for some new numbers, don't we Wreckage and Creig?

Oh I agree. We will need to see the Q3 numbers. Although the Q2 numbers do show a large gap between AMD and NVIDIA.

I also think that NVIDIA's price drop helped them gain parity with AMD's sales.

And Wreckage, if you really think AMD is a sinking ship, you don't really understand business.

You don't have to take my word on it.
http://www.fool.com/investing/...l-stocks-to-avoid.aspx

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I suppose we'll just have to wait for some new numbers, don't we Wreckage and Creig?

Oh I agree. We will need to see the Q3 numbers. Although the Q2 numbers do show a large gap between AMD and NVIDIA.

I also think that NVIDIA's price drop helped them gain parity with AMD's sales.

And Wreckage, if you really think AMD is a sinking ship, you don't really understand business.

You don't have to take my word on it.
http://www.fool.com/investing/...l-stocks-to-avoid.aspx

Good idea, Wreckage!

http://www.fool.com/investing/...-stays-affordable.aspx

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
If anyone out there truly thinks that a card released one month ago will be the savior of an entire company....I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

You could have said the same thing when the 8800 was released, and yet that one single product has been the NV gravy train for over two years.

NV had the uncontested GPU crown until the release of the 4 series. This is no longer the case.

Of course NV did better sales wise when they were #1 for a multitude of reasons. And ATI did worse when they were #2. There's no reason to expect the #2 GPU vendor (which is, at this point, nv) to outperform the #1 vendor (that being ATI) in the future.

Also look forward a few months to Nehalem. The chipsets for this platform support ATI multi-gpu natively. NV requries an additional chip and circuitry to support their multi-GPU solution. Several board makers have announced they're not even going to bother with the bridge chips.

 

[Wreckage]

Well here's the thread ender

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2...e-110-percent-nvidia/1

We have absolutely no plans at this time to make ATI products," he firmly stated, continued by "EVGA has a very strong link to Nvidia"

Mr. Tismer stated AMD was merely making a political statement given its more competitive market position, and that turning down EVGA, which owns a claimed 60 percent of the US retail market, was ludicrous.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: v8envy

You could have said the same thing when the 8800 was released, and yet that one single product has been the NV gravy train for over two years.

For the last 2 years Nvidia has owned the entire market top 2 bottom.

Now they are tied in the mid to mid-high market.

They still have the fastest single GPU and are eating up the low end market where more cards are sold.

Until AMD comes out with a low end 4xxx series they are probably not cleaning up as much as you think. Now with the GTX260 and 9800GX2 dropping in price, there is no advantage for AMD.