AMD destroys Nvidia at Bitcoin mining, can the gap ever be bridged?

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markyh

Member
Apr 7, 2013
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Anyone who have 45k?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321110918071&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123



Why don`t you read the entire thread before going all mental? Hashrate have increased a ton, difficulty along with it. Coincidence? Its real and its here. So stop living in the a dream. GPU mining is far less profitable than before, even though you say you can`t find many ASICs. But they are in the market, its just that the owners cling on to them like gold, because, they are gold. They don`t go on and brag about it either, rather keep it a secret instead of revealing their financials all over the internet. FPGAs stacks are available everywhere. Bah, I`m not having this discussion again.

speed-lin-ever1.png

The AMD 7950 is the most effeicient. in a single card basic rig it can do 500m/hsh @ 200 watts. That's 2.5 m/hash a watt.

With all this talk of ASIC's I beleive for the difficulty to double the network hashrate has to double? It has already doubled since February from 32.5 t/hash to 65.73 t/hash. GPU mining still makes money now @ 2-2.5 megahash a watt.

How many 5G/H BFL ASICS need to be running to double the network rate again?

Well you do realise that 1 terahash is one million megahash? So network rate today in megahash is :

65,730,000 megahash. And all network hashrate in february was only GPU and FPGA then lets assume that today 40 terahash is GPU and FPGA miners and 26 terahash is ASICS (to high I think).

So to double the network in the next two months BFL would have to ship 13146 jalapenos (now called 5/gh single miners).

(65,730,000 / 5000 = 13146)

Lets also assume all the preorders from 2012 and early 2013 before the BTC price jumped massively where the 3146 at the old $150 price.

3146 x $150 = $471900. Now lets assume the other 10000 are at the new price of $274. 10000 x $274 = $2,740,000.

total of $3.21m sales in 12 months. (Maybe??)

As they say the way to mke money out of a gold rush is to sell pickaxes to the miners!!

I just don't think BFL and all the other ASIC makers are quick enough to get this many ASICs out this quickly. Not to mention the drop out of GPU miners that need to be replaced once $/BTC mined in a day drops below the cost of electricity at say $0.10c kwh.

M
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
FPGAs stacks are available everywhere. Bah, I`m not having this discussion again.

No they aren't. At this point you are simply lying, you have been shown repeatedly that you can't actually go out and buy an ASIC and have it in any reasonable time frame. You either pre-order and wait 5+ months (best case scenario, with Avalon), or you can buy one for immediate delivery at auction at prices that actually exceed the prices of equivalent GPU mining hardware.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Yes because we were talking about GTX 680 or Nvidia GPUs :whiste:
LOL I`m out. I wont have this discussion over again

No, but you keep trying to downplay BTC mining on GPUs without considering that some people are still cross-shopping cards today. Reading your posts implies BTC mining is a waste of time regardless. For prospective purchasers of AMD and NV cards, this can be a factor, or may not be. You are not presenting all the facts objectively.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,059
2,272
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Does anyone not buy an nvidia card because of bitcoin ability? I don't think so. If they do, they're probably not gamers.

In my case, it certainly would have swayed me. Although I don't game as much as I used to, I still do occasionally, and since I have had AMD cards for the last 2 generations, I was looking to switch back to nVidia. However, the performance in mining swayed me to stick with AMD. I am probably in the minority though.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
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It was hard enough selling Crysis 3 a month ago, I can't imagine you'll get much for the bundle now, maybe $30 for all 3 games if you can move it at all.

It would be easier and probably just as profitable to move a Metro key that comes with the 680 in this case, and you'd probably get as much if not a few dollars more.

It's odd you use the benefit of mining 24/7 or very near to it, and selling the games that come with it to push the card.

Are we to assume you're saying buy a 7970 to mine, buy a 680 to play video games?


What's odd about stressing real benefits of the card in his post? Even if you mind only half as much, what changes in this scenario? Anything?
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
I still have no idea how you guys get the $100/mo number for a 7970. My 7950, at 510 Mhash, netted me about .08 BTC in 3 days (I'm fudging some of the numbers right now). At a trading rate of $120/BTC today, that's around $9.6 over 3 days. After power usage, that's $6 I'm taking home, from 3 days. $2 a day for a month is still, at most, $60.

HD7970 @ 1150mhz gets 680Mhash/sec or 33.3% more than you. Your electricity cost is also on the high side if it's nearly a 40% penalty from your revenue ($9.6 --> $6 net). HD7970 OC shouldn't be using more than 225W on its own. A lot of people keep their desktop on 24/7 anyway which implies an incremental electricity cost for the GPU + a bit from CPU and other components.

Electricity rates in some parts of NA are lower than $0.15 p kWh
http://www.torontohydro.com/sites/e.../yourbilloverview/Pages/ElectricityRates.aspx

Making $90-100 off a single 7970 OC shouldn't be hard.
 
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thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,059
2,272
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No they aren't. At this point you are simply lying, you have been shown repeatedly that you can't actually go out and buy an ASIC and have it in any reasonable time frame. You either pre-order and wait 5+ months (best case scenario, with Avalon), or you can buy one for immediate delivery at auction at prices that actually exceed the prices of equivalent GPU mining hardware.

FPGAs ARE widely available I believe. The ASICs are slow to market.
 

Eureka

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
3,822
1
81
Well, those numbers make a lot more sense now. My power is a bit more more than $.15/kWh, also I'm pretty sure my entire system is running more than 225W (I definitely do not keep my PC on 24/7). I did my math using 300W (for the full system load), at $.15/kWh, and over 72 hours, that's around $3.30 in electricity costs.

A 7970 OC should use more than 225W (true power usage, taking into account power supply loss), I was pulling near 400W from the wall when I had a 7970 OC running Heaven.
 
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Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
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I wish I had known about this years ago when I had my 5850. Oh well.

Me too mate. Saved those Bitcoins while the difficulty was low and sold them when the price was $200. Would have made a fortune.
Sadly I learned about Bitcoins a month ago (too late). Even too late to aquire these ASICs since there is tens of thousands of people who have pre ordered them before me. By the time I get my ASIC, they have become less profitable they too, just like GPUs.
No they aren't. At this point you are simply lying, you have been shown repeatedly that you can't actually go out and buy an ASIC and have it in any reasonable time frame. You either pre-order and wait 5+ months (best case scenario, with Avalon), or you can buy one for immediate delivery at auction at prices that actually exceed the prices of equivalent GPU mining hardware.

Why don`t you cool down and READ what I`m posting ey? I said FPGA, do you understand the difference? Google it, youtube it, educate yourself before telling people they are lyers.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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It's odd you use the benefit of mining 24/7 or very near to it, and selling the games that come with it to push the card.

It's odd that you keep ignoring it still. If your 470s didn't fail, you'd still be trucking with them. If you didn't ignore btc for 2-3 years now, you'd have paid for 7900 series a long time ago. Since you bought 7950 based on price/performance by your own admittance, why is BTC mining not a factor in price/performance? HD7950 is barely less $ than GTX660Ti. The BTC mining earnings from 7950 far outweigh the price advantage 7950 has over 670.

Imagine if Core i7 3770K made $60-100 a month. That's similar to a HD7950 in the GPU world. $60-$100 a month is nothing but over 15 months it's $900-1500. All of a sudden that's 3 new $500 GPUs, or 2014-2016 fully paid for. It's more units of free GPU upgrades though since some people resell their GPUs when they upgrade. What you are saying is you wouldn't want 3-4 free GPU upgrades from your 7950 because btc mining is not worth your time? Your choice.

Are we to assume you're saying buy a 7970 to mine, buy a 680 to play video games?

Option 1: Bitcoin when you are not gaming. Since 7970 OC > GTX680 OC, there is no downside risk. Every other time when 7970 is not used for gaming, it's mining and making $.

Option 2: If you game 24/7, then bitcoin mining is not a factor. Who games 24/7?

Since a lot of people work and only play 2-3 hours a day, the GPU mines for 20+ hours when they are busy doing other things in life.

Some people on our boards also purchased HD7000 series for mining and GTX600 series for gaming. That's also an option if have a lot of old systems laying around and want to make some easy $. The beauty of BTC is it doesn't rely on CPU speed, PCIe or doesn't care if the mobo supports CF or not. You can literally grab a cheap E6300 + P5N E-SLI mobo and slap 2 HD7970s in there. In fact, you can connect the GPU via PCIe 1x connector.
 
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crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,695
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Since a lot of people work and only play 2-3 hours a day, the GPU mines for 20+ hours when they are busy doing other things in life.

This right here. As long as the payout is well above the cost of electricity, I say why not? If I can keep it up long enough, the card becomes free (at the very least, I'm thinking) at which point it doesn't really matter if I took some life out of it by running it a bit hard.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
It's odd that you keep ignoring it still. If your 470s didn't fail, you'd still be trucking with them. If you didn't ignore btc for 2-3 years now, you'd have paid for 7900 series a long time ago. Since you bought 7950 based on price/performance by your own admittance, why is BTC mining not a factor in price/performance? HD7950 is barely less $ than GTX660Ti. The BTC mining earnings from 7950 far outweigh the price advantage 7950 has over 660Ti/670.



Option 1: Bitcoin when you are not gaming. Since 7970 OC is at least as good as GTX680 OC, there is no downside. Every other time when 7970 is mining, it's making $.

Option 2: If you game 24/7, then bitcoin mining is not a factor. Who games 24/7?

Since a lot of people work and only play 2-3 hours a day, the GPU mines for 20+ hours when they are busy doing other things in life.

Ignoring what? Ignoring the fact that you can't get your numbers without sacrificing game time? Ignoring the fact that I've been mining for the last 12 hours without a break and the room my PC is in even with a floor fan is like a sauna?

But then I wouldn't have had the price/performance/oc 470s, or the tessellation performance, or the SLI driver support...

I bought it for the same reason as I bought my 470s, even if it wasn't as good of a buy as my 470s were it was still exactly what I want. I never argued against your point, I only merely pointed out you and I are not the entire market which you still to this day fail to grasp.

It's only a factor if you actually do it, is it not? Not everyone needs to scrape out $100 a month off their gaming PC via never actually using it to game.

It takes forever, you need more than one gpu to get anywhere, the payout is slow, it requires a lot of wear and tear for little return... Oh and it's strikes most people as a scam, just to name a few reasons why the vast majority of people don't actually do it.


Cons1: The downside is the heat, tiered electricity bills, wear and strain on your components. Did I mention it's slow? You spend 18 hours each day beating the hell out of your hardware for a couple dollars?

Cons2: You never get to shut your PC down, increasing degradation among many other things. Massively increased carbon footprint due to possibly the least efficient way to use a PC to earn money. It's basically unskilled illegal alien wages for almost nothing, you can't do something better to earn a couple extra bucks a day? Why not skip a pop/bottled water or two and maybe that fries you don't actually need, you'd make as much and not increase your carbon footprint at the same time.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
This right here. As long as the payout is well above the cost of electricity, I say why not? If I can keep it up long enough, the card becomes free (at the very least, I'm thinking) at which point it doesn't really matter if I took some life out of it by running it a bit hard.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

It isn't about buying 1000s of GPUs to quit your daily job. It's about saying look it takes 10 min to set it up, press a couple buttons, and your computer makes $. After that point, no one can guarantee how long btc will last but considering 7970 Ghz costs less than 680 and is faster, there is no downside risk.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Me too mate. Saved those Bitcoins while the difficulty was low and sold them when the price was $200. Would have made a fortune.
Sadly I learned about Bitcoins a month ago (too late). Even too late to aquire these ASICs since there is tens of thousands of people who have pre ordered them before me. By the time I get my ASIC, they have become less profitable they too, just like GPUs.


Why don`t you cool down and READ what I`m posting ey? I said FPGA, do you understand the difference? Google it, youtube it, educate yourself before telling people they are lyers.

I apologize for misreading your post.

However, FPGA cost MORE than GPU for the most part, and don't really offer any benefit currently.
 

chimaxi83

Diamond Member
May 18, 2003
5,457
63
101
No, it doesn't make sense for people who are home and on their PC all day to mine. You're right. But really, lmao at carbon footprint from someone who ran 470 tri SLI. That's funny.

So basically, you though get it was a get rich quick scheme, it's not, and you're mad. And then you talk about stressing hardware. You throw out white knight lines like "well at least F@H on Nvidia cards are helping cure cancer", which is literally the same type of hardware stress. You want to use yours to "cure cancer" with the atrocious and miniscule contribution that a video card can make, others want to use theirs to make a little side money. Where exactly is the problem?

Anyway, anything to bash Bitcoin, I guess.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Ignoring what? Ignoring the fact that you can't get your numbers without sacrificing game time?

Even if you mine 12 hours a day instead of 24, that's $50 a month. It's not about $50 a month but the principal. Why should I pay for a slower product that doesn't make $ when the alternative costs less, makes $ and is faster? :colbert:

Ignoring the fact that I've been mining for the last 12 hours without a break and the room my PC is in even with a floor fan is like a sauna?

So you do not have air conditioning? I am having a hard time believing a 225W GPU has suddenly turned your room into a sauna.

It's only a factor if you actually do it, is it not? Not everyone needs to scrape out $100 a month off their gaming PC via never actually using it to game.

Get 2-3 GPUs, what's the problem? Then you can dedicate a single 7970 to gaming when you use it and use all 3 GPUs for mining when not gaming.

Even with 1 GPU, a lot of people work from 9am to 5pm, then they come home and eat, spend time with family. In your case if you play games 24 hours a day, OK mining doesn't make sense.

It takes forever, you need more than one gpu to get anywhere, the payout is slow, it requires a lot of wear and tear for little return... Oh and it's strikes most people as a scam, just to name a few reasons why the vast majority of people don't actually do it.

Proof? Same argument is used for distributed computing (F@H, Milkyway@H). My 470s were used for DC and all my cards before go 24/7 in either games, DC projects or mining. None has ever failed from over usage. Also, videocards are meant to be used. That's the point. No one sane enough intends to keep them for a lifetime.

If you get a card from Gigabyte or MSI, you get 3 year warranty. You can use your 7970 24/7 @ 100% load all you want. Who cares if the card runs 24/7 @ 100% OC for 3 years. Throw it out, get a new one. It's paid for with btc in 4 months and until the 3 year period, it's under warranty.

Cons1: The downside is the heat, tiered electricity bills, wear and strain on your components. Did I mention it's slow? You spend 18 hours each day beating the hell out of your hardware for a couple dollars?

3 7970 @ 1150 mining for 18 hours a day at $122 make $239 a month after electricity or $1400 in 6 months. OK let's see, take $1,400 of GPU hardware doing nothing but pressing a button on the desktop, vs. paying $1,400 for GPUs out of pocket. :hmm:

Cons2: You never get to shut your PC down, increasing degradation among many other things.

Not a factor. We are not talking about GTX570 or 590s. Cards like 7970 or GTX470/480 are built like tanks. My 7970s have been running for 1.5 years OCed without a hickup. Before that 470s have been going strong in Seti@home, no problem. Also, who buys their GPUs/CPUs thinking of babying them? Really now on an enthusiast forum where we overvolt & overclock? If anything, the whole point is using your hardware, not running benchmarks for e-peen. I'd rather run my GPU completely into the ground making $$$ than running 3dMark scores for e-peen. :biggrin:

Massively increased carbon footprint due to possibly the least efficient way to use a PC to earn money.

Least efficient way for PC to earn money? It requires no operator since the PC does the work. That makes it pretty efficient since it requires a person to start the system and the rest is done automatically. If you care about carbon footprint, start air drying your laundry, ban your wife from using hair dryer for her hair in the morning, sell your desktop for a laptop, etc. What kind of an argument is that?

It's basically unskilled illegal alien wages for almost nothing, you can't do something better to earn a couple extra bucks a day? Why not skip a pop/bottled water or two and maybe that fries you don't actually need, you'd make as much and not increase your carbon footprint at the same time.

Alternatively, do all of those things you described + bitcoin mining. The free money from BTC will then be used to purchase goods and services in the economy. That money will go to companies making products, including future GPU upgrades, or any other products. The employees working at those companies will get paid which means their families have $ to eat, have a place to live, etc. Your argument about carbon footprint being negatively impacted is negated by the positive benefits of having a stronger economy driven by consumer spending. A strong economy has a positive impact on social welfare for society as employed labor force is less likely to engage in violent crime (etc.) or be depressed. BTC is then used to purchase various goods and services and the companies making those goods and services pay taxes to the gov't. If you are that worried about carbon footprint, wouldn't you stop playing videogames since your argument automatically assumes that if I choose btc mining selfishly over carbon footprint, you do the same by choosing videogames over carbon footprint? I do not understand your point because it assumes that it is OK to burn electricity for videogames but NOT ok to do so for generating coins (or doing any other GPU related work such as distributed computing, etc.).
 
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Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
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Here is estimates on earnings when some of the ASICs hits the marked. Note that those after this date are estimates, not proof.

However take a look at the previous records on mining. They is 100% real and how Bitmining have changed and it gives a great picture on why GPU mining is dead.

2013-02-01: 0.169 BTC per day with 1GH/s. Back then you made 5.07 BTC/month (0.169*30days).
2013-04-18: 0.056 BTC per day with 1GH/s. That is today. So in a month now you make 1.68 BTC/month (0.056*30).

So without ASICs flooding the market from Avalon/BFL, due to the difficulty you now mine 65% less Bitcoins/month than 2 months ago. Just look at the chart, if his estimation on ASICs hitting the market is correct, you will need several ASICs to make a decent slump of money.

9.13.table1.2013-04-17.png


You can find terms about the difficulty and earnings after this date is based on here: http://organofcorti.blogspot.no/2013/04/913-asic-choices-asic-earnings-17-april.html
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Where exactly is the problem?

Are you really surprised?

1, 2, 3.

However take a look at the previous records on mining. They is 100% real and how Bitmining have changed and it gives a great picture on why GPU mining is dead.

- The above analysis doesn't take into account that the price per BTC may rise as difficulty rises.
- GPU mining cannot be dead when 7970 OC still makes over $100 per month. That means if you buy a $410 1050mhz MSI TF3 7970 now, you end up with a faster GPU than 680 and it would cost less $ overall. GPU mining isn't dead until it's no longer profitable.
 
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thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,059
2,272
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wear and strain on your components.

You've mentioned this before, but really if you don't want to put any strain on your hardware, don't buy it in the first place. If you're going to mention that, you should also take into account heating and cooling cycles which put additional material strain on cards, and is a problem for those who only game occasionally.

Considering most cards come with a 2+ year warranty, at least in that timeframe I see no problem with using it 24/7. I have used a 6950 and a 7950 for more than 1 year, mining 24/7 and they did not break down. My 6950 is being sold off and my 7950 is still chugging away, along with the two 7950s I just added. Even my Corsair HX620 from 2008 was still chugging away until I retired it when I added the 7950s. If you buy good components (Corsair PSUs for example), usually you don't have to worry about it.
 
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Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
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Are you really surprised?

1, 2, 3.



- The above analysis doesn't take into account that the price per BTC may rise as difficulty rises.
- GPU mining cannot be dead when 7970 OC still makes over $100 per month. That means if you buy a $410 1050mhz MSI TF3 7970 now, you end up with a faster GPU than 680 and it would cost less $ overall. GPU mining isn't dead until it's no longer profitable.
Are you really surprised?

1, 2, 3.



- The above analysis doesn't take into account that the price per BTC may rise as difficulty rises.
- GPU mining cannot be dead when 7970 OC still makes over $100 per month. That means if you buy a $410 1050mhz MSI TF3 7970 now, you end up with a faster GPU than 680 and it would cost less $ overall. GPU mining isn't dead until it's no longer profitable.

Price doesn`t follow difficulty. It lives its own life which have been shown many times. $60 and suddenly up to $230 then down to $80...
Take April 6 and 18th as examples.
6th: 1.98/GH/month @ $140 = $277
18th: 1.68/GH/month @ $100 = $168

What I have been saying since the start of this thread: Its too late. You would have made a lot of money if you were in it since the beginning and saved those Bitcoins since you mined a heck more than now with the same hardware.

$100 for an entire month on 24/7 mining on high OC is extremely MEH in my opinion. And having to deal with the noise and the heat due to high power consumption. But every man to himself I guess.
Its not 100% dead yet, but it will be in a few months.
 
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BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
No, it doesn't make sense for people who are home and on their PC all day to mine. You're right. But really, lmao at carbon footprint from someone who ran 470 tri SLI. That's funny.

So basically, you though get it was a get rich quick scheme, it's not, and you're mad. And then you talk about stressing hardware. You throw out white knight lines like "well at least F@H on Nvidia cards are helping cure cancer", which is literally the same type of hardware stress. You want to use yours to "cure cancer" with the atrocious and miniscule contribution that a video card can make, others want to use theirs to make a little side money. Where exactly is the problem?

Anyway, anything to bash Bitcoin, I guess.

You think highly overclocked 470s use anymore power than highly overclocked 7950s? Of course you do :hmm:

I also said I stopped doing it because I didn't enjoy the strain it put on my hardware, selective memory is selective though.

Anything that is reality is problematic for the AMD crowd, we can't actually discuss Bitcoins as they are now, a lesser form of crypto than others for gpu miners... We need to take take it as a personal attack on our heros and defend it to the last logic aside. :|


Are you really surprised?

1, 2, 3.


Want to try to use words constructively instead of liberally to actually point out what was wrong with what I said?

Try using meaningful words, getting to the point, and not rehashing the same thing over and over to shorten your posts to the point where they might actually be worth reading, please.

I remember when TI, and then Via (Cyrix @ Nat Semi then) underwent similar market revenue contractions (relative-percentage wise to the overall TAM of course)...TI threw in the towel, as did many others, as the ROI just wasn't there to keep developing future x86-based cores. Via stuck it out, but contracted and contracted until they found a niche they could serve.

That is the cusp of where AMD is at right now in x86. And without a future beyond 28nm at the moment, it looks like everyone in AMD's management (but not their fanboys) has recognized this and planned (internally at least) accordingly.

Given that 14XM is specifically being developed for mobile-only ICs, and that AMD is bound to keep production at GF or pay unacceptably high exclusivity-waiver fees, AMD's future in both discrete GPU and CPU is drawing to a conclusion that is clearly written on the wall (if only people would open their eyes).
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,695
2,293
146
What's really funny are the busybodies who think they know what's best for everyone else, and will attempt to endlessly argue anyone who disagrees with them into submission. I see a lot of these of off-topic digressions that are just moralizing disguised as reasonable arguments.

omg, my 7970 is expanding my carbon footprint! Armageddon is just around the corner! :rolleyes: