AMD confirms feature-level 12_0 for GCN maximum

[Silverforce11]

Yes, it does!

https://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/AMD/sparse_texture.txt

The above OpenGL extension specification which Southern Islands supports is similar tiled resources tier 2 ...

Fermi, Kepler, Haswell, and Maxwell v1 DOES NOT support tier 2 of tiled resources whereas Southern islands DOES support it!

You need to start backing up your posts before starting to spread misinformation ...

GCN 1 does (with functional OpenGL drivers), but it needs those functions exposed for Win 10, as the drivers lack it currently.

FL12_1 is Maxwell 2 specific, tacked onto DX12, because it would not be fair for MS to blatantly side with GCN in their new DX12 just because its the basis for their ecosystem (Xbone).

One only needs to think, what is the main driver for game development? $. Where is most of the income? Consoles.

FL12_1 won't be used in neutral titles (cos consoles won't support it), if NV wants to have it in games, its gotta be via GameWorks for PC.

FL12_0 will be the focus, as both PS4 & Xbone hardware is fully compatible.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yes, it does!

https://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/AMD/sparse_texture.txt

The above OpenGL extension specification which Southern Islands supports is similar tiled resources tier 2 ...

Fermi, Kepler, Haswell, and Maxwell v1 DOES NOT support tier 2 of tiled resources whereas Southern islands DOES support it!

You need to start backing up your posts before starting to spread misinformation ...

You should follow the thread before you post.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37454888&postcount=18

As shown, GCN 1.0 does not support Tiled Resources Tier 2.

GCN 1.0

GCN 1.1

 

[ShintaiDK]

FL12_1 is Maxwell 2 specific, tacked onto DX12, because it would not be fair for MS to blatantly side with GCN in their new DX12 just because its the basis for their ecosystem (Xbone).

Utter nonsense.

 

[TechFan1]

Here are some helpful quotes about feature level stuff from another forum. https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/directx-12-api-preview.55653/page-10

Level 12_0 is supported on the Xbox One.
Level 12_1 requires Conservative Rasterization and Rasterizer Ordered Views - they provide a very efficient way to implement occlusion culling, order-independent transparensy and ambient shadows, which require a lot of effort on current hardware.

Emulation of ROV and conservative rasterization is very difficult and would likely have unsolvable corner cases.

Conservative rasterization could be (at least) partially emulated by doing edge expansion in a geometry shader and adding lots of custom math instead of relying on fixed function rasterization hardware. However this would mean that the driver had to transparently add completely new shader stages (or combine them intelligently if geometry shader was already present), reroute the data and change the communication behind the scenes. This is counterintuitive for the design goal of creating an low level API with less abstraction. Obviously there would also be a huge performance drop (as geometry shaders are dead slow, especially on AMD hardware).

ROV emulation would need driver generated data stuctures for custom global atomic synchronization. DX12 has manual resource management. The programmer manages the memory. It would make the API really bad if you had to ask the driver whether it needs some extra temporary buffers and pass the resource descriptors to it through some side channel. If a programmer wants to emulate ROV, he/she can write the necessary code.

I don't like that the driver modifies my shaders and data structures based on some arcane IHV specific logic. There would definitely be corner cases where this failsmwith you particular resource layout or your particular shader. It is impossible to prove the correctness of complex shaders (that include flow control and synchronization between other threads). I dont believe that the driver should try to do some massive structural transformations to our shader code. Automatic code refactoring should always be verifiable by the programmer. In this case it would be completely hidden.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

GCN 1 does (with functional OpenGL drivers), but it needs those functions exposed for Win 10, as the drivers lack it currently.

FL12_1 is Maxwell 2 specific, tacked onto DX12, because it would not be fair for MS to blatantly side with GCN in their new DX12 just because its the basis for their ecosystem (Xbone).

One only needs to think, what is the main driver for game development? $. Where is most of the income? Consoles.

FL12_1 won't be used in neutral titles (cos consoles won't support it), if NV wants to have it in games, its gotta be via GameWorks for PC.

FL12_0 will be the focus, as both PS4 & Xbone hardware is fully compatible.

Actually, GCN1 ALREADY DOES support tiled resources tier 2 for windows ...

What AMD doesn't have that could be potentially supported is ROVs and I'm waiting on their drivers for that ...

ROVs can potentially run faster on GCN compared to Maxwell v2 according to Christophe Riccio ... *gasp*

https://twitter.com/g_truc/status/581224843556843521

 

[Silverforce11]

Utter nonsense.

Maxwell 2 specific? Check.

Tacked on to DX12? Check. Just like 10.1, 11.1 etc. 12.1 continues the trend!

GCN is the basis for MS's Xbone? Check.

Seems some people can't grasp basic truths.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

You should follow the thread before you post.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37454888&postcount=18

As shown, GCN 1.0 does not support Tiled Resources Tier 2.

GCN 1.0

GCN 1.1

You should use other sources than DX caps viewer ...

 

[Rvenger]

Wait until the games start supporting DX12 and DX caps viewer will change. Only shows current support.

 

[Red Hawk]

I wonder how many people who defended Nvidia for not fully supporting 11.1 are now criticizing AMD for not fully supporting 12.1, or vice versa.

 

[Stormflux]

I wonder how many people who defended Nvidia for not fully supporting 11.1 are now criticizing AMD for not fully supporting 12.1, or vice versa.

Do you know for sure their new cards releasing at the end of the month aren't supporting 12.1? If AMD is not, you've got a case. GCN 1.1 and 1.2 is understandable... they came out many years ago. The fact that they're 12.0 is amazing. Their value keeps on growing. More proof DX12 was derived from Mantle

Kepler brothers and sisters! With tanking performance, and now no DX12. I wish you the best of luck in the next life.

 

[Rvenger]

I wonder how many people who defended Nvidia for not fully supporting 11.1 are now criticizing AMD for not fully supporting 12.1, or vice versa.

That's where I was getting at. Needs to be a level playing field. Nvidia proved that the DX 11.0 feature set had no impact with DX 11.1 games. Just optimize the drivers and code it so the shaders can do the work. As long as AMD can do the same I see no issues. Lately AMD drivers have been excellent and I am pretty confident they can execute DX 12 just fine.

 

[ShintaiDK]

You should use other sources than DX caps viewer ...

Why, if its not in capsviewer its not supported in DirectX. Its pretty simple.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I wonder how many people who defended Nvidia for not fully supporting 11.1 are now criticizing AMD for not fully supporting 12.1, or vice versa.

I havent seen any yet.

Its quite obvious that plain DX12.0 will be the primary for games, nomatter what AMD or nVidia supports in current or future cards. Simply due to consoles and console ports.

Are GCN1.1 users in a better situation than Kepler? Absolutely.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

Why, if its not in capsviewer its not supported in DirectX. Its pretty simple.

No it really isn't ...

DX caps viewer DOES NOT do checks about the hardware features ...

You either need someone to write a special program or get someone who can actually read specs like graphics programmer's and etc ...

http://www.legitreviews.com/amd-rad...fter-driver-update_121841#uByThjBMb500aYeH.99

The link above shows that Southern Islands DOES support tiled resources tier 2 and that's coming STRAIGHT from AMD PR which is a mouth piece for AMD engineers ...

If you think you are going to overrule an AMD engineer's claim then you had best back up your next post before you make another mistake ...

 

[ShintaiDK]

DXcapsviewer read the drivers ability. And this is whats exposed to the game. So if its not in DXcapsviewer its not avaliable for the game because DirectX API will say its not supported. And thats the end of the story.

AMD havent delivered what you link. Everyone can test this on their own.

 

[JDG1980]

I think the point being made is that we don't know for sure whether the current values in DXCapsViewer for GCN 1.0 are due to lack of hardware support, or lack of adequate driver support. Remember, Win10 (the only version which supports DX12) is an unreleased OS that is still in beta.

If GCN 1.0 lacks hardware support for certain feature sets, then there's nothing AMD can do about that other than to stop selling Pitcairn and Cape Verde. On the other hand, if it just lacks driver support for those feature sets and the hardware has the capacity to support them, then this can be fixed in the future with driver updates.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I think the point being made is that we don't know for sure whether the current values in DXCapsViewer for GCN 1.0 are due to lack of hardware support, or lack of adequate driver support. Remember, Win10 (the only version which supports DX12) is an unreleased OS that is still in beta.

If GCN 1.0 lacks hardware support for certain feature sets, then there's nothing AMD can do about that other than to stop selling Pitcairn and Cape Verde. On the other hand, if it just lacks driver support for those feature sets and the hardware has the capacity to support them, then this can be fixed in the future with driver updates.

Its not in Windows 8.1 either for GCN 1.0, while it is for GCN 1.1 and 1.2.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

DXcapsviewer read the drivers ability. And this is whats exposed to the game. So if its not in DXcapsviewer its not avaliable for the game. And thats the end of the story.

AMD havent delivered what you link.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/direct3d-feature-levels-discussion.56575/page-9#post-1838269

You were saying ?

I know what you're probably going to say next and your excuse will probably be "bu but that's on Sea Islands" and etc ...

My answer to that is "Doesn't matter!"

The program described in that linked post above would've showed the same had it been Southern Islands ...

The only different thing about how Sea Islands and Tonga handles sparse resources is that it removes the limitation of having every single pages being backed by it's own memory via UNRELEASED OpenGL extension GL_AMD_sparse_texture_pool ...

That functionality is clearly not defined in ANY of the tiled resources tier or even exposed in DX12 at ALL!

Again DX caps viewer DOES NOT check for hardware capabilities ...

 

[PG]

Another article with pretty much the same info, but it seems more clear in terms of the language etc: http://wccftech.com/amd-confirms-gc...-level-111-gcn-10-feature-level-120-gcn-1112/

"AMD has recently confirmed that their current cards can support Feature Level 12_0 at best while the NVIDIA’s Maxwell architecture has full support for DirectX 12, up to Feature Level 12_1. The cards that feature level 12_ 0 support include Radeon HD 7790, Radeon R7 260 (X), Radeon R9 285, Radeon R9 290 (X) and R9 295X2. The older cards such as the ones based on Tahiti, Pitcairn that include all the 7000 series cards (excluding HD 7790), Radeon R9 270 (X) and Radeon R9 280 (X) feature up to Feature Level 11_1 support. Robert Hallock believes that there’s no problem with not feature DirectX Feature Level 12_1 support since features are performance enhancing tools are already available in 11_1 and 12_0 and most games won’t rely on utilization of 12_1. This however could hurt AMD in the long run against Maxwell (GeForce 900 series) cards that are fully compliant with DirectX 12 feature level 12_1 and that was proved in their recent GeForce GTX 980 Ti launch. NVIDIA’s older cards, like AMD’s 7000 series, such as Kepler and Fermi come with Feature Level 11_1 support."

AMD DirectX 12 GCN Support:

Model DirectX
Radeon HD 7000 series DX12, feature level 11_1
Radeon HD 7790 DX12, feature level 12_0
Radeon R7 260 (X) DX12, feature level 12_0
Radeon R9 270 (X) DX12, feature level 11_1
Radeon R9 280 (X) DX12, feature level 11_1
Radeon R9 285 DX12, feature level 12_0
Radeon R9 290 (X) DX12, feature level 12_0

 

[DarkKnightDude]

If it only checks it by driver side, there's your answer, its not capable of detecting hardware support side.

 

[cbrunny]

Yeah I still don't understand. How is posting screenshots of whatever dxcaps is proof? Isn't that just the driver's code or something? I don't see why AMD or Nvidia would have full and complete dx12 drivers at the moment when dx12 isn't even available outside of a technical preview of W10.

I'd rather hear from AMD PR than a screenshot that I don't understand.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

Yeah I still don't understand. How is posting screenshots of whatever dxcaps is proof? Isn't that just the driver's code or something? I don't see why AMD or Nvidia would have full and complete dx12 drivers at the moment when dx12 isn't even available outside of a technical preview of W10.

I'd rather hear from AMD PR than a screenshot that I don't understand.

Thank the lord someone here understands ...

 

[ShintaiDK]

Another article with pretty much the same info, but it seems more clear in terms of the language etc: http://wccftech.com/amd-confirms-gc...-level-111-gcn-10-feature-level-120-gcn-1112/

"AMD has recently confirmed that their current cards can support Feature Level 12_0 at best while the NVIDIA’s Maxwell architecture has full support for DirectX 12, up to Feature Level 12_1. The cards that feature level 12_ 0 support include Radeon HD 7790, Radeon R7 260 (X), Radeon R9 285, Radeon R9 290 (X) and R9 295X2. The older cards such as the ones based on Tahiti, Pitcairn that include all the 7000 series cards (excluding HD 7790), Radeon R9 270 (X) and Radeon R9 280 (X) feature up to Feature Level 11_1 support. Robert Hallock believes that there’s no problem with not feature DirectX Feature Level 12_1 support since features are performance enhancing tools are already available in 11_1 and 12_0 and most games won’t rely on utilization of 12_1. This however could hurt AMD in the long run against Maxwell (GeForce 900 series) cards that are fully compliant with DirectX 12 feature level 12_1 and that was proved in their recent GeForce GTX 980 Ti launch. NVIDIA’s older cards, like AMD’s 7000 series, such as Kepler and Fermi come with Feature Level 11_1 support."

AMD DirectX 12 GCN Support:

Model DirectX
Radeon HD 7000 series DX12, feature level 11_1
Radeon HD 7790 DX12, feature level 12_0
Radeon R7 260 (X) DX12, feature level 12_0
Radeon R9 270 (X) DX12, feature level 11_1
Radeon R9 280 (X) DX12, feature level 11_1
Radeon R9 285 DX12, feature level 12_0
Radeon R9 290 (X) DX12, feature level 12_0

Yep. GCN 1.0 is DX11.1 only.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yeah I still don't understand. How is posting screenshots of whatever dxcaps is proof? Isn't that just the driver's code or something? I don't see why AMD or Nvidia would have full and complete dx12 drivers at the moment when dx12 isn't even available outside of a technical preview of W10.

I'd rather hear from AMD PR than a screenshot that I don't understand.

The feature missing from GCN 1.0 have been there since Windows 8 release for GCN 1.1 and 1.2

Not to mention GCN 1.1 and 1.2 supports this in DX12.

 

[cbrunny]

The feature missing from GCN 1.0 have been there since Windows 8 release for GCN 1.1 and 1.2

Not to mention GCN 1.1 and 1.2 supports this in DX12.

I have no idea what this means.