AMD competition for Core i3 (Gamers thread)

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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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This is still very dependent on game, GPU you utilize and resolution you play.

Have a look at this article http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=869&p=0, where they pit a i7 920 going from 2.0 GHz to 4.0 GHz vs a Phenom II 965 BE also going from 2.0-4.0 GHz while paired with the 5970.

I know you were talking about multi -threaded games, but in here, it shows speed boosts doesn't seem to do much for the i7 architecture.

Yep that is the "GPU bottleneck" effect. This is one reason why I like the idea of lower power maximally efficient CPUs such as Core i3 for gaming.

If the game is truly video card dependent a scenario can actually exist where quad core won't return much in the way of FPS (over dual core) even if all four cores happen to scale 100%.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Yep that is the "GPU bottleneck" effect. This is one reason why I like the idea of lower power maximally efficient CPUs such as Core i3 for gaming.

If the game is truly video card dependent a scenario can actually exist where quad core won't return much in the way of FPS (over dual core) even if all four cores happen to scale 100%.
After the last 10 posts where we proved it made a big difference, like 100% faster with a quad, you still keep saying this ?????
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
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This is still very dependent on game, GPU you utilize and resolution you play.

Have a look at this article http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=869&p=0, where they pit a i7 920 going from 2.0 GHz to 4.0 GHz vs a Phenom II 965 BE also going from 2.0-4.0 GHz while paired with the 5970.

I know you were talking about multi -threaded games, but in here, it shows speed boosts doesn't seem to do much for the i7 architecture.
well there are no minimum framerates to go along with that though. I have seen cases where the min framerate can drop really bad yet because the card is still delivering plenty of performance the max and therefore average doesnt change much. I know in UT3 I had way higher averages going from 8600gt to 4670 to 9600gt yet my minimums didnt really budge while using a 2.6 5000 X2. of course every game and specific set up is different but average framerate doesnt always paint the right picture.
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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After the last 10 posts where we proved it made a big difference, like 100% faster with a quad, you still keep saying this ?????

Where did you prove to me this is true?

I'm talking games in this thread.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Hmmm....I was thinking HT could be maxed out at much lower loads.

It really depends on thread priority and so forth. You'd have to have a "perfect workload" to load the physical cores and logical cores at 100% on an i3 and then load cores 1/0 to 100% and cores 2/3 to 20% (or so) on a non-HT i5. I don't really know how often that happens, but it doesn't seem to be an everyday sort of thing.

The only way you will know for sure that HT is working is if the workload could load four physical cores.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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It really depends on thread priority and so forth. You'd have to have a "perfect workload" to load the physical cores and logical cores at 100% on an i3 and then load cores 1/0 to 100% and cores 2/3 to 20% (or so) on a non-HT i5. I don't really know how often that happens, but it doesn't seem to be an everyday sort of thing.

The only way you will know for sure that HT is working is if the workload could load four physical cores.

So if Cores 3 and 4 were loaded 50% on a quad core we could expect 10% boost with hyperthreading on dual core? (for the same program)
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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well there are no minimum framerates to go along with that though. I have seen cases where the min framerate can drop really bad yet because the card is still delivering plenty of performance the max and therefore average doesnt change much. I know in UT3 I had way higher averages going from 8600gt to 4670 to 9600gt yet my minimums didnt really budge while using a 2.6 5000 X2. of course every game and specific set up is different but average framerate doesnt always paint the right picture.

Still, the difference can't be really that much as both high maximums and low minimums will just happen on a few game portions - and many times due to other component hiccups.

This one show minimums rates http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=13034 . Again not much difference except when the phenom II x3 loses due to lacking 1 core.

And the legion hardware review is with a i7 920 @4.0 GHz paired with the fastest graphics card out there atm - you would expect the Phenom II to really limit that amount of GPU power, yet it holds, with a few exceptions, to the i7 920.

Whatever they say, pairing a 5970 with a Phenom II 965 that will cost ~$180 will achieve a better performance than pairing $280 CPU with some less powerful GPU.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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So if Cores 3 and 4 were loaded 50% on a quad core we could expect 10% boost with hyperthreading on dual core?

Maybe. The questions you have to ask are: why are the threads assigned to cores 2 and 3 (or 3 and 4 as you put it; in most cases, the cores on a quad go from 0 to 3) only loading the cores to 50% load, and if that is a load average, then what kind of load spikes are there? Furthermore, how is the scheduler affecting things here?

If you load up something like, oh I don't know, Nero or what have you, and start transcoding as you convert some .avi files or .mov files or what not you just dumped off your digital video camera to mpeg2 for burning to DVD, chances are all your cores are going to spike or come close to 100% utilization with relatively normal thread priority (at least in Nero 7 you could set this manually during the transcode, and I know for a fact that it pegged my poor Sempron 3200+ at 100% with the default thread priority).

Set the thread priority lower and, viola, your cpu load might start to fall, even though we all know there's PLENTY of work left for your CPU to do thanks to Nero. In the case of my dinky old Sempron, the reduction in load probably was a result of the chip being switched to low-level background tasks due to the now-low priority of Nero's thread(s). On a dual-core or quad-core (4 physical cores), a reduction in thread priority might only reduce the load on one or two cores depending on scheduler behavior.

So, with some games, you might have some low-priority background threads being offloaded to the logical cores where there will be a fight for CPU time involving those low-priority game threads and threads spawned by background processes. The net result is that, regardless of how much work those low-priority game threads actually represent, you probably won't see a whole lot of load even you're dealing with logical cores.

In other cases, games may only occasionally spawn additional threads at high-priority that will be offloaded to logical cores on an i3; the performance impact of HT, in those instances, will be based on how well the logical cores handle said load spikes. If your logical cores are pegged at 100% handling threads that only spawn intermittently, then an i5 with physical cores 2 and 3 handling the same threads with a load average of 20-30% may give you better overall performance (or at least smoother performance) simply due to their ability to resolve said intermittent loads quickly and expediently (at least compared to the logical cores on an i3 of the same clockspeed). Sure, it'll be better to have HT than not to have HT on an i3 in both of the above instances, but you can't always assume linear performance increases from having logical cores around to handle extra workloads.

Then there's the issue of resource-utilization efficiency in the phsyical cores of an i3; the more efficiently the resources of the physical cores are utilized, the less of an impact HT has on performance.

The simplest answer to your question is this: run comparative benchmarks and find out. Since i3 isn't being benched in many places yet, we just don't know for sure. The only thing we know for sure is that if an i3 is trying to handle a game that spawns four high-priority threads that can constantly load four physical cores at 100%, HT will make sure that any unutilized resources in the physical cores will be assigned to the logical cores, and that the logical cores will make thorough use of them. Anything else is best left up to app-dependent benchmarks since the 20% number I threw out there is sort of an average from a lot of Nehalem-based benches and *gasp* Northwood/Prescott/Smithfield benches (though back in the Netburst days, conventional wisdom was that HT only gave you about 5-10% extra performance across a wide variety of tasks; how times have changed).
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Maybe. The questions you have to ask are: why are the threads assigned to cores 2 and 3 (or 3 and 4 as you put it; in most cases, the cores on a quad go from 0 to 3) only loading the cores to 50% load, and if that is a load average, then what kind of load spikes are there? Furthermore, how is the scheduler affecting things here?

If you load up something like, oh I don't know, Nero or what have you, and start transcoding as you convert some .avi files or .mov files or what not you just dumped off your digital video camera to mpeg2 for burning to DVD, chances are all your cores are going to spike or come close to 100% utilization with relatively normal thread priority (at least in Nero 7 you could set this manually during the transcode, and I know for a fact that it pegged my poor Sempron 3200+ at 100% with the default thread priority).

Set the thread priority lower and, viola, your cpu load might start to fall, even though we all know there's PLENTY of work left for your CPU to do thanks to Nero. In the case of my dinky old Sempron, the reduction in load probably was a result of the chip being switched to low-level background tasks due to the now-low priority of Nero's thread(s). On a dual-core or quad-core (4 physical cores), a reduction in thread priority might only reduce the load on one or two cores depending on scheduler behavior.

So, with some games, you might have some low-priority background threads being offloaded to the logical cores where there will be a fight for CPU time involving those low-priority game threads and threads spawned by background processes. The net result is that, regardless of how much work those low-priority game threads actually represent, you probably won't see a whole lot of load even you're dealing with logical cores.

In other cases, games may only occasionally spawn additional threads at high-priority that will be offloaded to logical cores on an i3; the performance impact of HT, in those instances, will be based on how well the logical cores handle said load spikes. If your logical cores are pegged at 100% handling threads that only spawn intermittently, then an i5 with physical cores 2 and 3 handling the same threads with a load average of 20-30% may give you better overall performance (or at least smoother performance) simply due to their ability to resolve said intermittent loads quickly and expediently (at least compared to the logical cores on an i3 of the same clockspeed). Sure, it'll be better to have HT than not to have HT on an i3 in both of the above instances, but you can't always assume linear performance increases from having logical cores around to handle extra workloads.

Then there's the issue of resource-utilization efficiency in the phsyical cores of an i3; the more efficiently the resources of the physical cores are utilized, the less of an impact HT has on performance.

The simplest answer to your question is this: run comparative benchmarks and find out. Since i3 isn't being benched in many places yet, we just don't know for sure. The only thing we know for sure is that if an i3 is trying to handle a game that spawns four high-priority threads that can constantly load four physical cores at 100%, HT will make sure that any unutilized resources in the physical cores will be assigned to the logical cores, and that the logical cores will make thorough use of them. Anything else is best left up to app-dependent benchmarks since the 20% number I threw out there is sort of an average from a lot of Nehalem-based benches and *gasp* Northwood/Prescott/Smithfield benches (though back in the Netburst days, conventional wisdom was that HT only gave you about 5-10% extra performance across a wide variety of tasks; how times have changed).

That was a interesting read. Thank you.

I'm still thinking about this.
 
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Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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http://translate.google.com/transla...01207.shtml&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com

Here is a comparison of Core i3 vs E8400 in some sparsely threaded games.

It might be HT needs to be turned off in cases where the thread count is too low.

I think what we need is an official list of games and how well they scale with additional cores (with references to the testing conditions).

Well, in those games: (on a few pages past what you posted)

Core i3 has a slight win in crysis over the e8400 (likely a gpu limited test, also doesn't scale past two threads)

Far Cry 2 - Slight win for core 2 duo. Far Cry 2 does make use of 4 threads, and generally favored the i7 architecture.

L4D - Slight win for i3, don't think the game scales well past 2 threads.

Quake Wars - Slight win for, game doesn't take advantage of quad cores.

So in the one game that does make use of 4 threads, the i3 lost (so perhaps hyperthreading isn't going to help much when the 2 cores are already heavily loaded), and in general, neither the i3 or core 2 duo significantly beats the other.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Right here, 55 with a quad @ 2.67 vs 27 for a E8600@3.33. Even with a speed advantage that almost twice as fast. And thats on GTA4. Its in this thread last page (for me)

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...ead-of-Core-2-Quad-in-CPU-benchmarks/Reviews/

The title of that link says "Intel Core i7 far ahead of Core 2 quad in CPU benchmarks"

If anything this is proof that GTA IV likes the newer architecture of Nehalem rather than this idea of 4 cores scaling 100% over two cores.

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...ark-review-with-13-processors/Reviews/?page=2

In that comparison (I linked) we are seeing Q6600 51% faster than E6600 at the high end and 64% faster than E6600 at the low end. Both of these are the same architecture so the comparison is apples to apples.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Far Cry 2 - Slight win for core 2 duo. Far Cry 2 does make use of 4 threads, and generally favored the i7 architecture.

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,663817/Far-Cry-2-GPU-and-CPU-benchmarks/Reviews/?page=2

I didn't realize Far Cry 2 actually did better with quad core. In that benchmark Q6600 does 22%-24% better than E6600.

I wonder what games Anandtech will test? I hope they do some minimum frame rate testing as well. If anything I would expect quad core to favor minimum frame rates over the dual core based on what I read in post #233.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,663817/Far-Cry-2-GPU-and-CPU-benchmarks/Reviews/?page=2

I didn't realize Far Cry 2 actually did better with quad core. In that benchmark Q6600 does 22%-24% better than E6600.

I wonder what games Anandtech will test? I hope they do some minimum frame rate testing as well. If anything I would expect quad core to favor minimum frame rates over the dual core based on what I read in post #233.
So now you are admitting I am right finally ? Quads are a lot faster....In many Games.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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http://translate.google.com/transla...01207.shtml&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com

Here is a comparison of Core i3 vs E8400 in some sparsely threaded games.

It might be HT needs to be turned off in cases where the thread count is too low.

I think what we need is an official list of games and how well they scale with additional cores (with references to the testing conditions).

Hmm, interesting results, though what really caught my eye was this paragraph from the page on overclocking:

As early as June in Taipei computer show when it has already published the article, Intel will limit the Clarkdale overclocking, from the processor, we can get to know. 当我们不对CPU电压进行任何调整时,这颗处理器就可以轻松运行在4GHz上(超频时开启Turbo,166MHz外频即可达到4GHz),并且待机时电压依然不足0.9V,功耗也非常低。 When we do not CPU voltage any adjustment, the processor can easily run on a 4GHz (open when overclocking Turbo, 166MHz FSB can reach 4GHz), and the standby voltage is still less than 0.9V, power consumption is very low . 但继续尝试,即便是提升到较高电压,处理器主频在超过4GHz后就会戛然而止。 But continue to try, even upgrade to a higher voltage, the processor frequency will be screeching halt after more than 4GHz.

The low-power part, I like. The fact that they couldn't break 4 ghz . . . yuck. There may be a way around that, but without knowing more about which voltages they tweaked, it's hard to say. Core i3 overclocking may be a very tough nut to crack. Or maybe Intel really "will limit the Clarkdale overclocking, from the processor, we can get to know".

Btw, another thing to think about with respect to HT, is that Windows 7 has a much better scheduler than did WinXP. There will probably be fewer instances in which HT can really hurt performance by inadvertently assigning high-priority threads to logical cores when physical cores are available.

I also have to wonder how wonky cooling is going to be for i3. The chip is basically lopsided from what I've seen in that the two physical cores are on one side of the package. That, to my knowledge, will be where most of the heat will originate. Dealing with that hotspot may be difficult, or at least a bit odd.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
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My guess would be the IGP kills the overclocking potential. Even if it has separate clock and voltage control, the fact that it's on the same package probably screws around with stability in one form or another. Look at i5 overclocking with the onchip PCIe.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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I also have to wonder how wonky cooling is going to be for i3. The chip is basically lopsided from what I've seen in that the two physical cores are on one side of the package. That, to my knowledge, will be where most of the heat will originate. Dealing with that hotspot may be difficult, or at least a bit odd.

I was thinking of using a Corsair H50 mini water cooler for these two reasons.

1. It would fit nicely in the Sugo Sg05 and the radiator could be put directly behind the only fan (120mm front intake fan bringing cool air in from the outside)

2. I think a water block might do a better job at cooling the hot spot than a symmetrical heat pipe Tower cooler.

But honestly Turbo mode on Core i5 750 sounds pretty good (after reading post #233).
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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I was thinking of using a Corsair H50 mini water cooler for these two reasons.

1. It would fit nicely in the Sugo Sg05 and the radiator could be put directly behind the only fan (120mm front intake fan bringing cool air in from the outside)

2. I think a water block might do a better job at cooling the hot spot than a symmetrical heat pipe Tower cooler.

But honestly Turbo mode on Core i5 750 sounds pretty good (after reading post #233).

Why in the world would you want a water cooler for a dual ? It sure defeats the purpose of a power efficient cpu, when you eat 10 times that with a water cooling setup.

I will stay with my I7
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Why in the world would you want a water cooler for a dual ? It sure defeats the purpose of a power efficient cpu, when you eat 10 times that with a water cooling setup.

I will stay with my I7

It is a tiny little water cooler that is meant to be used in place of a midrange tower aircooler.

And yeah, anytime I see heavy water cooling mentioned it is usually in combination with high vcores for the extra 100-200 Mhz. The set-up I am talking about is different.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
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The low-power part, I like. The fact that they couldn't break 4 ghz . . . yuck. There may be a way around that, but without knowing more about which voltages they tweaked, it's hard to say. Core i3 overclocking may be a very tough nut to crack. Or maybe Intel really "will limit the Clarkdale overclocking, from the processor, we can get to know".

I remember having high hopes for the budget E4300 back in the early Conroe days. It had the 9x multiplier of E6600 but the same cache as the E6300/E6400.

However, when E4300 finally showed up people found it to be a weak overclocker compared to E6xxx. Apparently having less caps on the back of the chip was a sign to some people of a weaker design.

I am hoping Core i3 doesn't end up being a less robust design in the same way E4300 was.

Even if it does end up a being lighter duty construction....4 Ghz Overclocks on low volts sound really good. If that is true nothing beyond a stock cooler would ever be needed.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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It is a tiny little water cooler that is meant to be used in place of a midrange tower aircooler.

And yeah, anytime I see heavy water cooling mentioned it is usually in combination with high vcores for the extra 100-200 Mhz. The set-up I am talking about is different.

Well, my BIG air cooler uses virtually NO power. I have a 300 rpm 5 volt fan. Its almost fanless. Probably takes 1 watt or something > Bet less than the setup you are talking about. Just moving water takes power, even a little water.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Well, my BIG air cooler uses virtually NO power. I have a 300 rpm 5 volt fan. Its almost fanless. Probably takes 1 watt or something > Bet less than the setup you are talking about. Just moving water takes power, even a little water.

You make a good point about water being harder to move.

But I just found the information here-->http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=819&pageid=3 and it says the pump only uses 2.5 watts.
 
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ilkhan

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2006
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Seriously folks, if you want to end the argument you have to benchmark SPECIFIC games. You can't say most games are [one way or the other] for the very simple reason that not everybody plays the same games. Thus, you should look at YOUR needs, not an aggregate score.

Personally, in my testing, I only care about a couple of games, and I know exactly what they need. Every other game (and future games) matter not a bit, because I don't or won't play those games, or they're not CPU limited in a meaningful way.
 

LoneNinja

Senior member
Jan 5, 2009
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Can someone show me proof that I3 has hyperthreading? Everything I've found claims that the new 32nm dual cores will carry both I3 and I5 branding. The I3 will have no turbo mode and no hyperthreading, while the 32nm I5 will have turbo boost and hyperthreading.