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Discussion AMD Cezanne/Zen 3 APU Speculation and Discussion

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moinmoin

Golden Member
Jun 1, 2017
1,915
2,143
106
Seems Charlie knows more than us about GPU IP in APUs
"Lets dive in to the details." Cut. Now pay up to continue the dive. Classic Charlie. :p

You will get an RDNA2 APU on AM4. Just not now.
You sure? I fully expect AMD to hold back RNDA2 in APUs for the bandwidth gains DDR5 will bring, to then go full out both on CU count and performance. Which would mean AM4 (being limited to DDR4) will never get it.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
728
777
136
"Lets dive in to the details." Cut. Now pay up to continue the dive. Classic Charlie. :p


You sure? I fully expect AMD to hold back RNDA2 in APUs for the bandwidth gains DDR5 will bring, to then go full out both on CU count and performance. Which would mean AM4 (being limited to DDR4) will never get it.
I would like to see CDNA rather than RDNA TBH along with a better software stack. CDNA has quite a few use cases, even in gaming. Many TFLOPs of FP16, FP32, and FP64 along with tensor cores built in to the CPU is a wet dream for some of us nerds. 😀
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,151
1,920
96
"Lets dive in to the details." Cut. Now pay up to continue the dive. Classic Charlie. :p


You sure? I fully expect AMD to hold back RNDA2 in APUs for the bandwidth gains DDR5 will bring, to then go full out both on CU count and performance. Which would mean AM4 (being limited to DDR4) will never get it.
Rembrandt is 100% on AM4.


Google reverse image search on the three portraits on the top row are painted by Vermeer, Cezanne and Rembrandt in that order.

So far Rembrandt is rumoured to be the first RDNA APU. Provided that holds true, then...
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,151
1,920
96
The timing seems more like it would be on AM5.
And yet Gigabyte's B550 press deck pretty clearly puts it on AM4.

That's not to say it won't be on AM5 mind you. APUs are cost sensitive, I can definitely argue including both DDR4 and DDR5 memory controllers would be a good idea. Not to mention putting the chip on both sockets for desktop.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
3,862
515
126
And yet Gigabyte's B550 press deck pretty clearly puts it on AM4.

That's not to say it won't be on AM5 mind you. APUs are cost sensitive, I can definitely argue including both DDR4 and DDR5 memory controllers would be a good idea. Not to mention putting the chip on both sockets for desktop.
Its not without precedent either. K10 supported both DDR2 and DDR3 memory.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,565
1,042
126
I've long given up on IGP/APU being much more than placeholder level performance due to the moving targets that the competition represents in even cheap used dGPU. The ultra budget gamer is usually using pretty pedestrian Ram as well, exacerbating the difficulties.

I kind of feel like an idiot because I posted multiple times looking forward to the Zen2 APUs with 6 and 8 cores, because it makes them more useful to OEMs for premium business desktops (not workstations, but rather for heavy office app usage), as they can have less expensive to produce PCs that have a lesser common point of failure. And for the consumer at home, it could, like the cheaper 2x00G/3x00gs before it, serve as a way to get started with something and then upgrade later on.

Then the tests started coming out and ouch. The cut cache absolutely cripples the Zen2 APUs, to the point where after adding in a dGPU, it's a generational step backwards, from Zen2 levels to something akin to Zen1 to 1+. And while that is fine for something priced like a 2200G-3400G range, where you wouldn't expect to see a high end GPU ever matched up to suddenly be bottlenecked, the much more expensive new Zen2 premium APUs are definitely something you might see in a system where someone later drops in an Ampere or Navi2 etc.

For office PCs, the cut cache doesn't hit it to quite as severe a level, but for gamers it's pretty terrible (in the 750$+ PC build range). So, I was tremendously let down.

This was after telling people to wait for the XT refresh lol. So, I've been through a couple rounds of letdowns. Zen3 at least I fully believe will represent something meaningful. As for APUs, I will continue to ignore them unless they're uncompromised in cache and IPC vs their normal Zen family counterparts, or extreme budget parts, or for office/corporate duties in a config that is $/perf matched.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,067
744
136
I've long given up on IGP/APU being much more than placeholder level performance due to the moving targets that the competition represents in even cheap used dGPU. The ultra budget gamer is usually using pretty pedestrian Ram as well, exacerbating the difficulties.

I kind of feel like an idiot because I posted multiple times looking forward to the Zen2 APUs with 6 and 8 cores, because it makes them more useful to OEMs for premium business desktops (not workstations, but rather for heavy office app usage), as they can have less expensive to produce PCs that have a lesser common point of failure. And for the consumer at home, it could, like the cheaper 2x00G/3x00gs before it, serve as a way to get started with something and then upgrade later on.

Then the tests started coming out and ouch. The cut cache absolutely cripples the Zen2 APUs, to the point where after adding in a dGPU, it's a generational step backwards, from Zen2 levels to something akin to Zen1 to 1+. And while that is fine for something priced like a 2200G-3400G range, where you wouldn't expect to see a high end GPU ever matched up to suddenly be bottlenecked, the much more expensive new Zen2 premium APUs are definitely something you might see in a system where someone later drops in an Ampere or Navi2 etc.

For office PCs, the cut cache doesn't hit it to quite as severe a level, but for gamers it's pretty terrible (in the 750$+ PC build range). So, I was tremendously let down.

This was after telling people to wait for the XT refresh lol. So, I've been through a couple rounds of letdowns. Zen3 at least I fully believe will represent something meaningful. As for APUs, I will continue to ignore them unless they're uncompromised in cache and IPC vs their normal Zen family counterparts, or extreme budget parts, or for office/corporate duties in a config that is $/perf matched.
Well its not RDNA2 but a 4700G is going to get very, very close to RX560... specially with heavy GPU/MEM OC. It makes ZERO sence to try something like that but its there.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,565
1,042
126
Well its not RDNA2 but a 4700G is going to get very, very close to RX560... specially with heavy GPU/MEM OC. It makes ZERO sence to try something like that but its there.
True, but I've used a 560 and I wouldn't recommend it for anything much north of MS office and Netflix. It's pretty weak.

OC/tune/tweaked IGP is still something like putting a turbo on a 1l 3 cylinder 40hp econobox. 47hp! Yaaaaaaay 😅🥳
 

misuspita

Member
Jul 15, 2006
158
128
116
That's bull.

I have a 560 and works decent for a lot of games. Sure, I don't play anything 2020, but for what I do is perfect. World of tanks kind. Civ. All those are GOOD ENOUGH (TM) on my 60 Hz monitor. Could do better? Yeah, if I was gaming more, probably.

But my main use is audio work and for that to have a portable mini itx box, with so much cpu power and also really playable gaming for killing time when needed is really good. Actually thinking about it. Never thought that the gpu part can reach 560 level
 

teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
336
176
116
Pointless info without more details. Battlefield V runs fine on Ryzen 4700U.

 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,494
5,474
136
Not switching for Navi will backfire?
I don't think any of us can really know why Cezanne is staying with Vega, nor do we know how Cezanne's incarnation of Vega will perform. I think it's premature to assume that RTG can't iterate upon the design to squeeze more performance out of it. Renoir's Vega seems to outperform Picasso's a bit (but not by much), so Cezanne may be able to get a little more oomph per CU per MHz. We will see.

AMD has been burned by throwing too many transistors at iGPUs in the past. Intel may or may not be throwing a ton of transistors at Xe to cover up for the fact that they can't bring 6c+ CPUs to market with acceptable yields in 2020 on 10nm, with or without "SuperFETS" or whatever they call it. Plus it took them so long to get TigerLake-U to market. It should have been out in July.

Frankly I would not worry about it too much. AMD is looking for premium laptop design wins, and in those situations, the OEMs always include mobile dGPUs anyway, so . . .
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator and Elite Member
Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
22,071
2,472
136
I've long given up on IGP/APU being much more than placeholder level performance due to the moving targets that the competition represents in even cheap used dGPU. The ultra budget gamer is usually using pretty pedestrian Ram as well, exacerbating the difficulties.

I kind of feel like an idiot because I posted multiple times looking forward to the Zen2 APUs with 6 and 8 cores, because it makes them more useful to OEMs for premium business desktops (not workstations, but rather for heavy office app usage), as they can have less expensive to produce PCs that have a lesser common point of failure. And for the consumer at home, it could, like the cheaper 2x00G/3x00gs before it, serve as a way to get started with something and then upgrade later on.

Then the tests started coming out and ouch. The cut cache absolutely cripples the Zen2 APUs, to the point where after adding in a dGPU, it's a generational step backwards, from Zen2 levels to something akin to Zen1 to 1+. And while that is fine for something priced like a 2200G-3400G range, where you wouldn't expect to see a high end GPU ever matched up to suddenly be bottlenecked, the much more expensive new Zen2 premium APUs are definitely something you might see in a system where someone later drops in an Ampere or Navi2 etc.

For office PCs, the cut cache doesn't hit it to quite as severe a level, but for gamers it's pretty terrible (in the 750$+ PC build range). So, I was tremendously let down.

This was after telling people to wait for the XT refresh lol. So, I've been through a couple rounds of letdowns. Zen3 at least I fully believe will represent something meaningful. As for APUs, I will continue to ignore them unless they're uncompromised in cache and IPC vs their normal Zen family counterparts, or extreme budget parts, or for office/corporate duties in a config that is $/perf matched.
AMD APUs are now NUC killers brother. I don't really consider thunderbolt and eGPU relevant, since that defeats the whole purpose of the tiny footprint. I have a A300W - 3400G, 2x8GB Ballistix 3200 C16, Noctua NH-L9A, and it is great for many older titles. I am playing through Fallout 3 on it currently. With streaming gaming services improving, and having relatively fast internet, I can play new triple A stuff on it if I want.

6x6 is a bit more than the 4x4, but it let me use the Noctua.
 

LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
530
475
106
I'm starting to think that AMD is sticking with VEGA on the 7nm APUs for footprint reasons. From what I'm reading, the equivalent number of NAVI/RDNA CUs would consume a non-trivial amount more die area than the existing VEGA cores do. Given how tight AMD is on wafer capacity at the moment, I don't see them wanting to put any more die area towards the iGPU than they absolutely have to.

If Cezanne can bring the increased core capabilities of Zen3 and the increased effective cache performance of the unified 8 core CCX, and provide another 10% clock speed uplift on the Vega CUs, it will still be a worthy generational upgrade to Renoir. Now, will it be better than Tigerlake 4C in mobile? I don't know. Obviously, it'll have a core count advantage. It'll have a tweaked process. Tigerlake should rectify a lot of what was wrong with Ice Lake, meaning more Mhz and lower power draw. It'll also have a further improved iGPU. It'll bring with it Intel's noted advantages when it comes to extracting performance and low latency from their memory controllers as well. By that point, I would hope that AMD is specifying DDR4-3600 for their mobile platform, and maybe faster LPDDR4X for those types of systems, to help deal with the greater memory demands of a faster iGPU.

Either way, I still see the biggest loser here being Nvidia as they continue to loose volume on their MX lines of dGPUs. I suspect that, as Renoir has made everything from the MX330 on down completely irrelevant, and bumps up against the MX350 (which is essentially a low power 1050 mobile), we'll see Cezanne do the same for the MX350 as well, and start to push slightly into low power, cut down mobile 1650 territory. Look at the current laptop market. Whereas a few years ago, Mobile 1050 laptops were commanding prices at $900+, you can get 4GB 1650s in the under $700 category now.

As AMD and Intel improve their mobile iGPU products, and memory technology also moves along, there's less and less of a demand for the volume/Low end mobile dGPU products. Nvidia is going to have to do some more innovation in that area to keep their volumes up in that market.
 

Zepp

Member
May 18, 2019
33
20
41
Battlefield V runs fine on Ryzen 4700U.

seems to even run better on 2500u than in Ryan's video

and this is the multiplayer not the campaign
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,155
1,611
126
seems to even run better on 2500u than in Ryan's video

and this is the multiplayer not the campaign
He's gotta throw Intel a bone once in a while. I doubt he'd want to pay for inferior products just for reviews.
 
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