AMD Bulldozer in PS4 - rumor sufaces

[JimKiler]

In keeping with tradition of a new Bulldozer thread a day I am submitting this one. Per Tom's there is a rumor that Bulldozer could show up in the PS4...or it could be an updated 32-nm IBM Cell processor.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Cell-GPU-Bulldozer-Wii-U-PlayStation,news-11809.html

"as for Sony's effort, reports on the PlayStation 4 processor are a bit more murky than the other two, ranging from an AMD APU (Bulldozer) to a newer updated 32-nm IBM Cell processor. The new Sony console is also expected to make an appearance next year at E3 2012, so we expect to hear something more solid before then. Again, like the Xbox, it is all mere rumor until we start getting closer to the next show and tidbits of more information are "leaked" out."

Feel free to predict how much faster bulldozer will be compared to the current PS3 cell processor.

Also who will start tomorrow's thread of Bulldozer is 50% faster than _____________ ?

 

[nonameo]

does GF even have the manufacturing capacity for that?

Also, I am not too sure how CPU manufacturing works on the console front. Is it a licensed design or an actual IBM cpu?

edit: also, if AMD gets in the ps4, they need to get their name on that console as much as they can... GREAT advertising, and IMO, AMD is severely lacking in the name recognition department.

 

[podspi]

IMHO, APU makes the most sense. Assuming it is true that AMD won the GPU contract for all the next-gen consoles -- console makers stand to save $$ w/ APUs in the same way computer OEMs do. The only real reason for them not to go this route is if they are afraid of consoles becoming commoditized. If they all run off the same hardware, porting will become trivial.

 

[OCGuy]

Does BD have an APU that can play smoothly @ 1080p for current games + games for the next 4-6 years (average span of a console?)

 

[Kenmitch]

Does BD have an APU that can play smoothly @ 1080p for current games + games for the next 4-6 years (average span of a console?)

Too me it kinda looks like AMD is more leaning toward a tag team effort between BD and GCN to get the job done. If it winds up being implemented in consoles only time will tell. I don't think AMD's put the manpower into crossfire scaling just for the sake of the dgpu market.

 

[Mr. President]

Does BD have an APU that can play smoothly @ 1080p for current games + games for the next 4-6 years (average span of a console?)

Not likely. APUs make perfect sense in a non-gaming device but I find it unlikely to become the primary GPU in a dedicated gaming system. It would make sense as a GPGPU co-processor though.

Either way, this rumour first surfaced at HardOCP who themselves supposedly heard it second hand. I'm not putting much stock in it.

 

[RussianSensation]

IMHO, APU makes the most sense.

Actually it doesn't, not for a console.

The highest end APU AMD currently ships is in Llano which includes a GPU even slower than their highest-end embedded GPU - the E6760 with 480 SPs, 24 TMUs and 8 ROPs.

They would be far better off using a next generation of the embedded 6760 and a separate CPU like the Cell than Bulldozer core + crippled graphics.

An HD6800/6900 mobile GPU is much more suitable on 28nm process. If AMD designs a special custom embedded GPU ala 6760 on 28nm but with a much much faster GPU, then I could see such a scenario. But Bulldozer CPU + GPU simply won't have enough of a performance edge to beat an RV770 imo. If PS4 or Xbox3 chooses this route, it's a huge fail on their part imo. Not to mention, the die size and cost of a 6-core Bulldozer (bare minimum) + 800 SP+ GPU onboard would be huge if such a chip was even possible by 2012.

Does BD have an APU that can play smoothly @ 1080p for current games + games for the next 4-6 years (average span of a console?)

Not even close. Llano's GPU is 2x faster than HD3000 in SB, but compared to a $100 dedicated GPU, it's a joke. Performance is slower than an HD5570.

HD5570 has 400 SPs, 20 TMUs and 8 ROPs.

Wii U has an RV770 GPU. That either means a 4850 or a 4870. Both of those have 800 SPs, 40 TMUs and 16 ROPs. What are the chances AMD will be able to release a 6-core Bulldozer CPU + GPU 2x faster than Llano by 2012-2013? Imagine how large that APU would be (and how expensive it would be!), and yet that would be barely any faster than the RV770 GPU in Wii U. Why would either the PS4 or Xbox3 include a GPU barely any faster than the Wii U? Also, you can just imagine that Bulldozer on 32nm was already delayed many times. Even if you shrink it to 28nm, try including an 800 SP, 40 TMU, 16 ROP GPU in it.....your yields would skydive.

But even if the performance of their embedded 6760 is doubled by 2012-2013, we'd only be looking at 960 SPs, 48 TMUs and 16 ROPs. That's barely faster than the HD6870M (which is only about as fast as an HD5770 on the desktop). Again, they'd probably be better off shrinking the current HD6900M to 28nm then.

GPU performance is critical in a console imo. PS3 relied too much on the Cell processor because the RSX was weak. They'd be better off grabbing a 3-core 2-threaded 32nm IBM Cell but investing heavily into the GPU - like HD7000 on 28nm! That setup would obliterate an 6-/8-core Bulldozer APU setup.

 

[sawtx]

Wii U has an RV770 GPU. That either means a 4850 or a 4870.

Very doubtful, I would put that with the initial rumors of the Wii having a PPU. The RV770 rumor seems like it started when a couple people found the Game Watch article and saw RV770 in it and thought that meant that the WiiU had one.

 

[Mopetar]

I find this a little funny as there were rumors some time ago that Microsoft was considering a Fusion part for their next console.

Would be pretty funny if both consoles used a similar architecture. Developers might actually like it if it makes porting games easier.

 

[Arkaign]

This would be ludicrously stupid, same as if they were rumored to be using a next-gen Intel 8-core cpu. Too much heat/power/wasted general purpose processing power/cache.

Just wait, it'll be some highly integrated low-power variant of something not BD or SB/etc, combined with a pretty decent gpu subsystem.

 

[veri745]

Wii U has an RV770 GPU. That either means a 4850 or a 4870. Both of those have 800 SPs, 40 TMUs and 16 ROPs.

Umm... not quite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_U#Technical_specifications

"based on" doesn't mean it's a full featured one, and that's only a rumor.

The 4730 is "based on RV770", and that's not exactly radeon 4870 class graphics.

 

[BD231]

This would be ludicrously stupid, same as if they were rumored to be using a next-gen Intel 8-core cpu. Too much heat/power/wasted general purpose processing power/cache.

Just wait, it'll be some highly integrated low-power variant of something not BD or SB/etc, combined with a pretty decent gpu subsystem.

Stupid? Not quite. Could you imagine the massive spread of multi-threaded games that would come about? Don't get me wrong I'm thinking it's far fetched also but AMD has a lot of pull in the console industry by now.

*IF* this is true it would be a big step in console hardware. People always b tch about how consoles hold back the PC, this would definitely lend a hand in that department.

 

[JimKiler]

Umm... not quite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_U#Technical_specifications

"based on" doesn't mean it's a full featured one, and that's only a rumor.

The 4730 is "based on RV770", and that's not exactly radeon 4870 class graphics.

For a console that was just announced the specifications on wiki are very detailed with pictures to boot!

 

[Phynaz]

AMD's stock price is off 5% today. If there was the slightest chance of anything about this rumor being true that wouldn't be the case.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Actually it doesn't, not for a console.

The highest end APU AMD currently ships is in Llano which includes a GPU even slower than their highest-end embedded GPU - the E6760 with 480 SPs, 24 TMUs and 8 ROPs.

They would be far better off using a next generation of the embedded 6760 and a separate CPU like the Cell than Bulldozer core + crippled graphics.

An HD6800/6900 mobile GPU is much more suitable on 28nm process. If AMD designs a special custom embedded GPU ala 6760 on 28nm but with a much much faster GPU, then I could see such a scenario. But Bulldozer CPU + GPU simply won't have enough of a performance edge to beat an RV770 imo. If PS4 or Xbox3 chooses this route, it's a huge fail on their part imo. Not to mention, the die size and cost of a 6-core Bulldozer (bare minimum) + 800 SP+ GPU onboard would be huge if such a chip was even possible by 2012.

Trinity isn't too far off according to rumors. How good is the GPU of trinity is unknown.

 

[Blue Shift]

Even though there probably won't be an APU powerful enough to use from day one... If AMD provides both the CPU and GPU for the system, could Sony hope for an APU-based "slim" version of their system a few years down the road?

 

[Fox5]

Fusion is reasonable for a high end console, especially after how expensive the PS3 was considered to be. PS3 basically launched with the equivalent of (at the time) a high end cpu and a mid range graphics card. The 360 launched with the equivalent of a mid range cpu and a mid range graphics card, except the graphics card was designed around the limitations of a console so they got more legs out of it. For the most part, the systems are almost indistinguishable graphically (you can even argue 360 has better looking games on the whole)
I could see a fusion product being the most cost effective option for a console. Games never did take advantage of the multi core revolution as much as people hoped, so a low end cpu (quad core bulldozer) should be sufficient. Combine that with a mid range gpu and you're almost there. The final piece of the puzzle? The 360 had it right with a dedicated small but fast framebuffer for the graphics chip. If L3 cache gets large enough to fit a 1080p + AA, the L3 cache could be shared with the GPU. Alternatively, a dual die approach, the same as the 360, with maybe ~30MB of edram would make Fusion far more competitive.

Fusion has some good arguments against it though. The console companies, with the exception of the original Xbox, want to own the chips they're manufacturing. Would AMD want to license away an entire Fusion design? Would they even be legally allowed to license away x86 technology like that? AMD lets their graphics chips go, but cpus are a different story...

One more option:
Why does it have to be Bulldozer? Bobcat is probably comparable in per mhz per core integer performance to the PS3's PPE. Sony could continue the Cell experiment by having 8 bobcat cores (with suped up FPU performance) on a single chip, and then used the die space saved for a better GPU.

 

[Mopetar]

AMD's stock price is off 5% today. If there was the slightest chance of anything about this rumor being true that wouldn't be the case.

Given the usual lack of sound judgement and irrational behavior in the stock market for day-to-day trends, a gnat fart could have been responsible for the drop. Basing the credibility of rumors off of stock performance is probably no better than if you were to ask Madame Cleo. There are too many other rumors and variables in play to tie stock performance to the veracity of any one rumor, unless it's substantial or has a lot of evidence to back it up.

 

[Gikaseixas]

A bit unlikely with the present 32nm process, maybe 22nm. How big of a cooler would they fit there? I guess that a BD processor and a more powerful gpu (compared to the one in Llano's) would generate more heat but i could be wrong.

If that's true then i would say it's a huge achievement.

 

[Gikaseixas]

Given the usual lack of sound judgement and irrational behavior in the stock market for day-to-day trends, a gnat fart could have been responsible for the drop. Basing the credibility of rumors off of stock performance is probably no better than if you were to ask Madame Cleo. There are too many other rumors and variables in play to tie stock performance to the veracity of any one rumor, unless it's substantial or has a lot of evidence to back it up.

I agree
what he said makes no sense at all. What a lousy attempt to make a negative point about the product in question here.

 

[sawtx]

AMD's stock price is off 5% today. If there was the slightest chance of anything about this rumor being true that wouldn't be the case.

Well this isn't really from today, this seems like a copy of what [H] posted last week. I don't think it is real mainly because I can't see Microsoft go with a Cell CPU for the next Xbox.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/07/07/e3_rumors_on_next_generation_console_hardware/

 

[Phynaz]

I agree
what he said makes no sense at all. What a lousy attempt to make a negative point about the product in question here.

What are you talking about? There is no product in question here.

 

[Gikaseixas]

we're discussing BD inside the next PS

Product = BD

 

[Tuna-Fish]

So much baseless speculation here...

All the presently sold consoles use an "APU", or a single chip with both the CPU and GPU. This significantly saves on fixed costs everywhere in the system, and it would be very unlikely that they would go back to two separate chips, if they had any way to avoid this.

The primary reason Llano's GPU is so puny is the memory interface. Of the present-gen consoles, XBOX360 uses a single unified 128 bit interface with GDDR3 ram. This is probably how they will do it for the next gen -- a single 128-bit interface with GDDR5. This is enough to get to the performance of 5770 or so, which is probably good enough.

As for the CPU, I don't think you get just how awful the CPU's in present-gen consoles really are. They are all in-order monstrosities plugged into high-latency memory systems with little cache -- Brazos would probably win them in most of the tasks they really perform, at half the clock speed. They were just as awful when they shipped -- even considering for how much CPU's have advanced in the past 5 years, BD really would be a major step up.

But I find it's use doubtful. The primary determinant on what HW they will use is not how good it is, but supply security, and how cheap they can make it. This is why it will most likely be built on TSMC, and the CPU is unlikely to be anything good enough that they'd actually have to pay much for licensing it.

 

[veri745]

For a console that was just announced the specifications on wiki are very detailed with pictures to boot!

bah, my link edit didn't work the first time around...