AMD back into the red, post 20M$ loss.

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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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7,369
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I guess the point should be that the Computing Solutions revenue continues to fall, but AMD was able to cut enough to more than make up for it so that the loss was less.

My guess is that AMD posts another small loss this quarter.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
As a non expert AMD to me is suffering from two completely different problems

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Problem A) AMD suffering a cash flow problem. It is very very expensive to run fabs and do all the R&D, and the fabs situation with AMD being the only major customer for the fabs was killing AMD. This was a big problem starting in mid 2006 and especially bad to 2009 (the year GF became its own company), and kinda stabilizing right about now in 2012 (AMD owns no more GF stock). The solution to that problem was spinning off the fabs as its own company, in theory the fabs would make money by growing and attracting new customers. The wall street crash of 2008 practically stopping business loans and bonds/debt, and losing your CEO does not help matters.

This was the fear of a fast death and AMD is relatively safe from the fast death for now, it appears AMD has stabilized.

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Problem B) AMD suffers an "execution" problem. AMD will always have less resources than the other tech companies (especially Intel but now ARM), and to execute you need resources, you need talent, and you need luck. AMD has to execute well for it does not have the Intel advantage of better fabs than everyone else (Intel's fabs are a couple years more advanced than everyone else, people will debate how much more advanced). If AMD does not execute well it will lose marketshare. Furthermore the problem is exasperated that AMD old markets are saturated and growing very slowly, and AMD new markets are very highly competitive.

The problem is AMD has always been hit and miss with the execution. Sometimes AMD hits Home Runs, more often though AMD seems to screw up, merely instead just Bunting, Flyballs, or Fouling it Off. (Bulldozer was an attempt at a home run, but it definitely was not a hit but instead a major Foul).

If AMD can't execute well it won't generate revenue for the market is very competitive and this will be a slow death

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Now Problem A and Problem B are two completely separate problems, like an Infection (fast death) and Cancer (slow death), yet they can affect each other (go on Chemo and suddenly you are less able to fight off an infection.)

AMD always had Problem A with the fabs costing a bloody lots of money, this was true in the 90s as well as the 00s, but AMD was able to execute "well enough" with to cover up the expenses of the fabs, they were able to do so until 2009.

Now AMD doesn't have the fabs (only having to deal with the WSA) and has lowered its expenses (reduced other expenses such as employee costs) it has very little to worry about Problem A. Thing is even now Problem A affects Problem B, by giving up the fabs you lose control over choosing how the fabs design chips changing electrical parameters, you also lose time, and you also lose information all these make it harder for AMD to execute. By giving up some of those "expensive engineers" aka laying people off, you may significantly reduce expenses but it now harder to get your product on market in time for it to make a significant effect.

Hell if you do not execute due to low cash flow you may not invest in the proper markets at the right time. Dirk Meyer (AMD CEO from 2008 to 2011) was let go for he focused on two of three markets.
  • He put most of his R&D in big cores (what became Bulldozer/Piledriver/Kaverai) trying to maintain and grow the server market/desktop cpus.
  • He put some R&D in small cores (what became Bobcat/Jaguar).
  • He ignored the mobile aka cellphone/tablet market, in fact selling AMD low powered graphics (ADRENO is anagram of RADEON) to Qualcomm, he also sold Xilleon to Broadcom. These sell offs generated very little money but Problem A needed to be address in any way possible, remember this was the time of the Market Crash of 08.
In hindsight we know this was a very bad move. AMD should have been putting all of efforts in its small cores, sustain its big cores temporary with a derivative of the phenom k10 architecture, and figure out how to make some money on mobile without going all in.

I think AMD is stable for now, but it is going to be a lot smaller company for the technology world is getting bigger, more fish are entering the pond, and I just do see how AMD grows.

The benefit to AMD of Rory over AMD's past CEOs is that Rory (being an outsider prior to becoming CEO) had absolutely no qualms in taking on the so-called "sacred cows" of AMD's projects and business groups.

Because of this, Rory has been able to redirect practically every single aspect of AMD's IC design focus, budget, and market target without the hassle of needing to negotiate a personal network of legacy associations that he would have otherwise had developed over time on his path to the CEO spot.

Its the cleanest break from AMD's traditional power structure and decision making that AMD could have made.

And Rory seems willing to do whatever it takes to scale AMD's cost structure such that it fits within their revenue footprint (more or less). This causes a lot of internal consternation in the short-term, but as we've seen with AMD in the past, failure to execute has been their biggest weakness.

So they needed to get small(er) to re-entrench and be able to develop the core competencies that are necessary for any company to execute to their plans in a timely manner.

Rory has done this, it takes time, but the progress is there.
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
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762
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Some would say that Rory is setting up AMD for a takeover target, with a nice golden parachute for him...

The numbers do tell a story, but, their products tell another story, one that lacks competitive goals. This can be seen by the way they are going hard after the ARM market, with their custom 'compute' on the same die strategy.
They basically dropped anything even remotely high-end and are dishing out scraps to the desktop people.

Ultimately, will this work ? If AMD is still around in 5 years, perhaps.
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
Some would say that Rory is setting up AMD for a takeover target, with a nice golden parachute for him...

The numbers do tell a story, but, their products tell another story, one that lacks competitive goals. This can be seen by the way they are going hard after the ARM market, with their custom 'compute' on the same die strategy.
They basically dropped anything even remotely high-end and are dishing out scraps to the desktop people.

Ultimately, will this work ? If AMD is still around in 5 years, perhaps.

Even if amd is in a bind, we are talking about a multibillion $ company, how many companies can buy out AMD? or want to?

secondly their products are competitive and the highend is a small market. they are fine as long as they dont go too VIA...
 
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bullzz

Senior member
Jul 12, 2013
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google, samsung, TI, LG, huawei to name a few. companies i listed are either trying to get into ARM soc business or have been trying without great success. AMD has great GPU ip and engineering capability these companies wud love to have. I thought apple would buy AMD couple of years back when they were beefing up their soc design team
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,583
164
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google, samsung, TI, LG, huawei to name a few. companies i listed are either trying to get into ARM soc business or have been trying without great success. AMD has great GPU ip and engineering capability these companies wud love to have. I thought apple would buy AMD couple of years back when they were beefing up their soc design team
None of these firms would risk AMD losing its x86 license, since it's non transferable AFAIK, as it'll make Intel a virtual monopoly in this space & would really hurt AMD's core business, at least in the short to medium term.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
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5,897
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None of these firms would risk AMD losing its x86 license, since it's non transferable AFAIK, as it'll make Intel a virtual monopoly in this space & would really hurt AMD's core business, at least in the short to medium term.

Actually, making Intel into a monopoly might work out great for the ARM server vendors. "Why do you want to be stuck on x86? Intel has a monopoly, they've just turned into one of the big iron companies that they killed off in the first place! Go with ARM, it's open, and there are dozens of companies offering ARM! Don't be trapped with Intel's monopoly!"

EDIT: Not saying that I agree with this line of argument, I just think that it could prove persuasive from a PR point of view.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,583
164
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Actually, making Intel into a monopoly might work out great for the ARM server vendors. "Why do you want to be stuck on x86? Intel has a monopoly, they've just turned into one of the big iron companies that they killed off in the first place! Go with ARM, it's open, and there are dozens of companies offering ARM! Don't be trapped with Intel's monopoly!"

EDIT: Not saying that I agree with this line of argument, I just think that it could prove persuasive from a PR point of view.
Now that would be wicked & something I wouldn't support either but it could also potentially destroy AMD's GPU line, considering the rest are in it for just the ARM IP, as none of these firms look like they're in it for the long haul, Google being a prime example with their manhandling of Motorola Mobility & then selling it for peanuts to Lenovo o_O
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,480
5,897
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Yeah but they could've salvaged the train wreck that Motorola Mobility is today, instead they just went after the patents & (almost) killed their hardware business not very unlike HP's handling of Palm.

Meh, the Moto G is their best smartphone in quite some time in my opinion. It's clearly the finest phone on the market at that price point.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,583
164
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Meh, the Moto G is their best smartphone in quite some time in my opinion. It's clearly the finest phone on the market at that price point.
And yet they sold Motorola to Lenovo which means (a) they weren't intending to be in it (the hardware business) for the long haul or (b) they couldn't the financial mess the firm was in & I see both these factors affecting a possible sale of AMD. Now I'm not saying that AMD shouldn't do with good financials or better support from elsewhere, after the buyout, but it would be preferable if the firm remains true to its core biz of x86 CPU's & GPU's failing which it wouldn't even be a shadow of its former (once glorious) self :(
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
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Even if amd is in a bind, we are talking about a multibillion $ company, how many companies can buy out AMD? or want to?

secondly their products are competitive and the highend is a small market. they are fine as long as they dont go too VIA...

A few $B isn't much, considering leverage, so money isn't the issue. As to your second question, yeah, who would want to pay a few $B to compete with Intel, from a disadvantaged starting point?
 

Centauri

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2002
1,631
56
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None of these firms would risk AMD losing its x86 license...

The x86 license is of less importance to AMD, and the industry as a whole, with each passing day. I'd go as far as to say it wouldn't factor into a predatory company's valuation of AMD whatsoever.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,362
136
The x86 license is of less importance to AMD, and the industry as a whole, with each passing day. I'd go as far as to say it wouldn't factor into a predatory company's valuation of AMD whatsoever.

x86 is still very important to AMD and it will continue to be. The market is shrinking but it is still a huge market. Also, even to this day a large portion of AMDs revenue comes from x86.
 

Centauri

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2002
1,631
56
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I said nothing to contradict that. But AMD is completely decoupling itself from the x86 market and it's conceivable that they will walk away entirely at some point in the foreseeable future. Anybody even remotely interested in buying AMD would already be seeing that, they would as well be aware that holding onto the license would be next to impossible anyways.

x86 is the least attractive piece of AMD to anybody, including AMD.
 
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positivedoppler

Golden Member
Apr 30, 2012
1,148
256
136
Some would say that Rory is setting up AMD for a takeover target, with a nice golden parachute for him...

The numbers do tell a story, but, their products tell another story, one that lacks competitive goals. This can be seen by the way they are going hard after the ARM market, with their custom 'compute' on the same die strategy.
They basically dropped anything even remotely high-end and are dishing out scraps to the desktop people.

Ultimately, will this work ? If AMD is still around in 5 years, perhaps.


I think what Rory did was absolutely brilliant. APU was the only way to go if AMD was to survive. With Intel on 22nm and AMD on 32 and a busted piledriver design, they didn't have a shot against Intel at the high end market. Flushing more RD into a big core would have put an already debt ridden AMD in further trouble if they don't hit a home run. They did the only thing they could do and cut cost and kept the cpu piece floating with low end APUs until GF catches up to Intel somewhat. So I don't think AMD has completely given up the high end CPU performance market. Rory chose to withdraw from the expensive battle until GF can offer them better ammo. In the mean time AMD has been very aggressive in the GPU market because Nvidia was a company AMD can compete toe to toe with on the high end market due to both sharing a common FAB in TSC.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
The x86 license is of less importance to AMD, and the industry as a whole, with each passing day. I'd go as far as to say it wouldn't factor into a predatory company's valuation of AMD whatsoever.

Don't go that far. In fact, AMD has tied itself even more to x86 because they are expanding the marketing footprint of their x86 offers. Now beyond traditional markets, their "semi-custom" business is also 100% x86.

As much as they WANT to decouple themselves from x86, they are not there yet, and won't be for at least half a decade.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,362
136
I said nothing to contradict that. But AMD is completely decoupling itself from the x86 market and it's conceivable that they will walk away entirely at some point in the foreseeable future. Anybody even remotely interested in buying AMD would already be seeing that, they would as well be aware that holding onto the license would be next to impossible anyways.

x86 is the least attractive piece of AMD to anybody, including AMD.

I dont believe anyone in AMD has thought about leaving the x86 up to this day. Perhaps the x86 market will shrink to very low volumes in the future, but that will not happen in 3-5 years.
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
I think what Rory did was absolutely brilliant. APU was the only way to go if AMD was to survive.

The only brilliant thing was the console wins which isn't really apu, it's just cpu + graphics on one chip. That win is more down to AMD owning ATi, and the new range of consoles just happening to hit this year. Take consoles out and the results would be pretty bleak - for cpu's you've got an x86 cpu market in a nosedive and a load of power point slides about arm and embedded markets with 0 sales. Graphics is ticking over but architecturally starting to fall behind Nvidia as R&D cuts bite (i.e. current trends are all about lowering power usage but AMD don't have a design that gives them that - already they are nearly locked out of laptop market).
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
Profit and revenue is already dropping in that segment. And it will only continue so in the future.

Consoles is not paying the bills. R&D is constantly being reduced. CPU division keeps shrinking, dGPUs struggles with both profitability and revenue.

We can already see AMD dropping one segment after the other for its CPUs. Soon they only sell netbook style CPUs.


How much R&D money do you think it really cost AMD to take off the shelf cores and graphics silicon and package them together? I have a feeling that in the grand scheme of AMD's R&D budget it was probably not very much at all. I doubt whatever money was used for console silicon development would really have changed much on the big CPU core front, the mobile front, or regarding graphics. If AMD had another $20 million (just a total guesstimate) that was used on CPU R&D vs. console R&D, do you really think it would change things much as far as how they compete with Intel? The console probably aren't making a ton of money, but I doubt it cost much to make the silicon and that will provide steady income for the next few years at least.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,114
136
Hmm.

One of official the Tweets says
"Something SMALL is coming and it’s BIG news! " :thumbsdown:

AMD, I want something big to come (Big core chip) & I want it to be big news.:cool:


Hmm, link doesn't work for me. I wonder if AMD is ready to open up about Hierofalcon (AMD ARM Opteron) :confused:
 

Rezist

Senior member
Jun 20, 2009
726
0
71
The only brilliant thing was the console wins which isn't really apu, it's just cpu + graphics on one chip. That win is more down to AMD owning ATi, and the new range of consoles just happening to hit this year. Take consoles out and the results would be pretty bleak - for cpu's you've got an x86 cpu market in a nosedive and a load of power point slides about arm and embedded markets with 0 sales. Graphics is ticking over but architecturally starting to fall behind Nvidia as R&D cuts bite (i.e. current trends are all about lowering power usage but AMD don't have a design that gives them that - already they are nearly locked out of laptop market).

AMD still never got into laptops when they had the more efficient designs usually due to drivers etc.