AMD ARM devkits now available

[Phynaz]

To those thinking that the dev kits are expensive..... you obviously don't work for a large company which they're giving these away for free anyways. In addition, this is open to the public so quit your bitching. You think HP was giving moonshot dev kits out to the public?

Do you honestly think this is in the same class as Moonshot?

 

[Vesku]

Keep in mind the board is supposed to have dual 10Gbe ports. The devkit price is high but not outrageous considering it will probably cost $600+ retail, judging by the price of such boards with 1Gbe ports. However, it's disappointing that AMD is not offering a 64-bit ARM dev kit targeted at the other end of the market to complement this one.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Keep in mind the board is supposed to have dual 10Gbe ports. The devkit price is high but not outrageous considering it will probably cost $600+ retail, judging by the price of such boards with 1Gbe ports, but it's disappointing that AMD is not offering a 64-bit ARM dev kit targeted at the other end of the market to complement this one.

To the right customer, the huge potential memory capacity, very low power consumption, and abundance of ports, such as the 10GBe you already mentioned, will make it very valuable to them, especially if the relatively modest performance is enough for their application(s).

But a moderately powerful, 8-core, 64-bit Arm Cortex-A57 could of seen a huge number of other applications, including a new range of low power consumption APUs, which would make great all-in-one computers, and tiny-PC boxes etc. (Obviously Arm rather than X86 soiftware needed).

I guess a better example would be to look at what Intel have done with the later Atom processors, which are available in 2, 4 and 8 core (maybe more options) varieties, and proper server board forms (but also non-server forms, such as the J1800/J1900 range). Tablets etc etc.

As you just said, they may have missed a real opportunity, here.

In principle, I liked the concept of the FX8350, with its 8 cores, and could have lived with its lower performance, over Intels offerings.
But its 125 TDP ruined it for me.

But the 22 Watts (not sure of exact figure, but I remember it being about this value) is great for quiet/silent fan, or even completely passive heatsink, and nice small electricity bills.

 

[monstercameron]

To the right customer, the huge potential memory capacity, very low power consumption, and abundance of ports, such as the 10GBe you already mentioned, will make it very valuable to them, especially if the relatively modest performance is enough for their application(s).

But a moderately powerful, 8-core, 64-bit Arm Cortex-A57 could of seen a huge number of other applications, including a new range of low power consumption APUs, which would make great all-in-one computers, and tiny-PC boxes etc. (Obviously Arm rather than X86 soiftware needed).

I guess a better example would be to look at what Intel have done with the later Atom processors, which are available in 2, 4 and 8 core (maybe more options) varieties, and proper server board forms (but also non-server forms, such as the J1800/J1900 range). Tablets etc etc.

As you just said, they may have missed a real opportunity, here.

In principle, I liked the concept of the FX8350, with its 8 cores, and could have lived with its lower performance, over Intels offerings.
But its 125 TDP ruined it for me.

But the 22 Watts (not sure of exact figure, but I remember it being about this value) is great for quiet/silent fan, or even completely passive heatsink, and nice small electricity bills.

doesn't sound like a good excuse when there is an unlocked 95w 8320 that can be undercclocked and undervolted.

 

[ShintaiDK]

To the right customer, the huge potential memory capacity, very low power consumption, and abundance of ports, such as the 10GBe you already mentioned, will make it very valuable to them, especially if the relatively modest performance is enough for their application(s).

But a moderately powerful, 8-core, 64-bit Arm Cortex-A57 could of seen a huge number of other applications, including a new range of low power consumption APUs, which would make great all-in-one computers, and tiny-PC boxes etc. (Obviously Arm rather than X86 soiftware needed).

I guess a better example would be to look at what Intel have done with the later Atom processors, which are available in 2, 4 and 8 core (maybe more options) varieties, and proper server board forms (but also non-server forms, such as the J1800/J1900 range). Tablets etc etc.

As you just said, they may have missed a real opportunity, here.

In principle, I liked the concept of the FX8350, with its 8 cores, and could have lived with its lower performance, over Intels offerings.
But its 125 TDP ruined it for me.

But the 22 Watts (not sure of exact figure, but I remember it being about this value) is great for quiet/silent fan, or even completely passive heatsink, and nice small electricity bills.

But why pick this over a 12 or 20W 8 core Atom thats supported by a massive standardlized ecosystem in the server segment? Not to mention the 14nm Atoms may even come before this one is released.

 

[monstercameron]

There is no standardized system in the Linux server world. Most software is a recompile away from working.

 

[ShintaiDK]

There is no standardized system in the Linux server world. Most software is a recompile away from working.

So you just recompile between say ARM and x86 uarchs? Not to mention 64bit is...fairly new for ARM.

 

[monstercameron]

Has been in the works for a few years already.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIwNzU

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

doesn't sound like a good excuse when there is an unlocked 95w 8320 that can be undercclocked and undervolted.

That is a good point. The FX prices are significantly lower now, than they were a year or so, ago.
Another option, would be to use Opterons (older ones can be real cheap on ebay, due to mass server recycling pulls, e.g. $9.99 for a hex core, low power (40W ?) one).
Servers or motherboards, to use them in, can also be fairly cheaply bought on ebay.
But there are many potential pitfalls, such as extreme fan noise on 1U units, and many other things to be careful of.

But why pick this over a 12 or 20W 8 core Atom thats supported by a massive standardlized ecosystem in the server segment? Not to mention the 14nm Atoms may even come before this one is released.

I agree.
But the reason why, was I was hoping that these things could be 25% to 50% LESS than the cost of the equivalent Intel Atom setup.
If that is NOT going to be the case, then the atoms become a very attractive solution.

The C2750 8 core atom server boards, which I have been eyeing for a long time, use to be relatively unavailable, in the UK, at least.

I did not want to buy them from the US, because of big delivery charges, import taxes and lack of guarantee (it may well have a guarantee, but sending it back would probably be too expensive).

But they are available for sale in the UK now (Scan link). At an affordable (if not cheap), price.

The AMD AM1 5350 stuff look promising for ITX low usage microserver applications as well, because they have amazingly low prices (mobo+cpu (4 core) = about £63 (about $100), and although the TDP is stated as 25W, in non-graphically intensive applications, it probably only uses about 15 W (less at idle, I guess).

They are a fair bit faster than the equivalent Atom processors. i.e. The J1900.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The AMD AM1 5350 stuff look promising for ITX low usage microserver applications as well, because they have amazingly low prices (mobo+cpu (4 core) = about £63 (about $100), and although the TDP is stated as 25W, in non-graphically intensive applications, it probably only uses about 15 W (less at idle, I guess).

Thats where you got a 70$ J1900 at 10W.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Thats where you got a 70$ J1900 at 10W.

That's where things get a tad complicated (because I was extensively looking into this, recently).

The J1900 does indeed use less power, BUT it is slower than the AM1 5350, so I decided that overall the AMD AM1 5350 was a better solution for me.

I.e. The extra performance (I remember it being something like 25% faster, but I would have to check the exact passmark benchmark results again, to be sure), was worth the modest power consumption increase.

(From memory)

(cpu) J1900 VS AMD 5350
(Power) 10W vs 15W (25W only applies during heavy graphics, usage).
(passmark) 1963 vs 2626 LINK

I think I read a good article/review comparing these processors (probably on Anandtech).

So I decided the performance improvement was worth the extra power consumption, so the AMD 5350 was the winner (with its amazingly low price being a big factor as well).

But for real server boards, the intel atoms are the thing to go for, at the moment.
E.g. If you need to use ECC memory.

 

[monstercameron]

Soft... what is your server load like?

 

[ShintaiDK]

That's where things get a tad complicated (because I was extensively looking into this, recently).

The J1900 does indeed use less power, BUT it is slower than the AM1 5350, so I decided that overall the AMD AM1 5350 was a better solution for me.

Did you check this?

http://anandtech.com/bench/product/1227?vs=1223

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Soft... what is your server load like?

It's me being overly interested in what computers/servers I can get in the future, rather than a huge need at the moment (I'm a real terror, over things like this).

Think of me as someone who buys 20 different powerful sports cars. But only drives one of them for a mile, down the road, every other month!

I am considering lots of different options, so that when it becomes time to buy, I will know what to do.

In the short term, any server(s) I get (possibly cheap used ebay ones), are more for learning/testing, rather than any kind of serious production use.

Did you check this?

http://anandtech.com/bench/product/1227?vs=1223

No, I don't think I did. That is very interesting.

What I am really going to need to do (if I end up needing/wanting motherboards/systems like this), is to buy both a J1900 and AMD 5350, and run the actual software which I use, on a regular basis on them, and see which comes out tops.

I like the idea of replacing older PCs I have got, with these things, because they can fit into tiny ITX cases, use little power, and be completely silent (or very, very quiet).

 

[Ajay]

AMD's site says

The development kit provides the hardware and software needed to begin application development and evaluate AMD Opteron A1100 Series processors.

This is an enterprise hardware/software package and likely includes professional support - hence the high prices. I would expect this is meant for a first or second tier server and services provider. AMD's goal is to target low TCO server farms (web, cloud storage, media streaming) and data centers. The former may be a good play based on it's growth and low compute overhead - that later is Intel territory and will likely be defended vigorously by Intel. Comparison to to small ARM dev boards is pointless in this case - this is not the market AMD is looking for.

I don't think we'll see anything big out of this first product rollout. If there really is a market here - I would expect ARM K12 to move the bar forward and give us a clue as to whether or not this market has the possibility of expanding AMD's revenue. I thought this was a dumb move by AMD when it was first announced (draining off limited R&D and other resources), but AMD seemed to have a pretty good enterprise hardware and support infrastructure prior to faildozer - so maybe AMD really has something to add here. There are plenty of big players in this space (Google, Facebook, etc) who would be very happy to have a another choice between Intel or a homegrown system.

Still, it's a huge gamble by AMD. If their A1100 systems garner little marketshare and the K12 doesn't change that trajectory - allot of dollars will have gone down the drain and more layoffs will be at hand.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

AMD's site says

This is an enterprise hardware/software package and likely includes professional support - hence the high prices. I would expect this is meant for a first or second tier server and services provider. AMD's goal is to target low TCO server farms (web, cloud storage, media streaming) and data centers. The former may be a good play based on it's growth and low compute overhead - that later is Intel territory and will likely be defended vigorously by Intel. Comparison to to small ARM dev boards is pointless in this case - this is not the market AMD is looking for.

I don't think we'll see anything big out of this first product rollout. If there really is a market here - I would expect ARM K12 to move the bar forward and give us a clue as to whether or not this market has the possibility of expanding AMD's revenue. I thought this was a dumb move by AMD when it was first announced (draining off limited R&D and other resources), but AMD seemed to have a pretty good enterprise hardware and support infrastructure prior to faildozer - so maybe AMD really has something to add here. There are plenty of big players in this space (Google, Facebook, etc) who would be very happy to have a another choice between Intel or a homegrown system.

Still, it's a huge gamble by AMD. If their A1100 systems garner little marketshare and the K12 doesn't change that trajectory - allot of dollars will have gone down the drain and more layoffs will be at hand.

I agree, support is VERY expensive, and bumps up the cost of things like compilers (in some cases).

Yes, it is sad and worrying for AMD.

The big loss of market share in the Xeon/Opteron server space has not been good.

Even for big companies, the $3000 worries me, because they are trying to persuade people, who have been using X86 stuff for decades, to move over to Arm.
Although I would imagine/hope that it is free, for very big customers.

I don't think I would like to be the top man, at AMD at the moment.

 

[Vesku]

But for real server boards, the intel atoms are the thing to go for, at the moment.
E.g. If you need to use ECC memory.

AM1 can have ECC support, ASUS AM1M-A apparently implements it. Edit: Although actual using ECC seems to be unsupported by the manufacturers, so not much you can do if your RAM seems incompatible.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1495837/ecc-works-on-am1

Something not available on consumer Trail series boards like the J1900s afaik.

Not sure there is a need for 64 bit ARM consumer level stuff unless some company can deliver a full SoC board for ~$50 or less. Other than as a cheap 64 bit ARM development and testing platform, that is.

 

[Ajay]

Even for big companies, the $3000 worries me, because they are trying to persuade people, who have been using X86 stuff for decades, to move over to Arm.

I should have clarified: I would expect that if Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. were interested, they would not be filling out this form. In fact, the more I think about it, the only companies filling out this form would be a small company or startup (who might be interested in a totally different application than AMD's brochure indicates). So this is more about PR than anything else.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

AM1 can have ECC support, ASUS AM1M-A apparently implements it.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1495837/ecc-works-on-am1

Something not available on consumer Trail series boards like the J1900s afaik.

Not sure there is a need for 64 bit ARM consumer level stuff unless some company can deliver a full SoC board for ~$50 or less. Other than as a cheap 64 bit ARM development and testing platform, that is.

Assuming that the AM1 platform can support ECC memory (can't find official confirmation, but some people, including your link (thanks), think it can), that will be useful for microserver like applications (NAS using ZFS filesystem, and stuff like that).
Such a low cost platform supporting ECC memory, will be amazing, if it works out ok, with the currently available motherboards/bios's.

I should have clarified: I would expect that if Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. were interested, they would not be filling out this form. In fact, the more I think about it, the only companies filling out this form would be a small company or startup (who might be interested in a totally different application than AMD's brochure indicates). So this is more about PR than anything else.

Yes, there must be something going on, somehow ?

Maybe they should have said that they will give out free (or reduced cost ones), if the intended company/project(s)/market segments fit in with what AMD intends the market to be.

E.g. A small time (Arm) compiler writer, would probably be worth sending out an early, free unit to.

I think some companies do this by saying something like

"This is a competition to win 15 free AMD Arm Cortex-A57 Server motherboards".
"To enter, just describe, in no more than 2000 words, your intended project(s) and uses, for this equipment".
"We will choose the winner in 6 weeks time, and send the units out within 14 days".
"Entry is entirely free, but please send $100 to AT forum user [SOFTengCOMPelec], and any spare >=8 core xeon cpus you may have (Joke)".

 

[Nothingness]

So you just recompile between say ARM and x86 uarchs? Not to mention 64bit is...fairly new for ARM.

Yes. Some distros have been available for months for ARM 64-bit, such as openSUSE. Oracle is also working on Java server for ARM 64-bit.

Of course not all software is easy to port (in particular those generating native code at run time), but most of the time porting is trivial.

 

[Idontcare]

I should have clarified: I would expect that if Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. were interested, they would not be filling out this form. In fact, the more I think about it, the only companies filling out this form would be a small company or startup (who might be interested in a totally different application than AMD's brochure indicates). So this is more about PR than anything else.

Small startups, kickstarters, and anyone in academics running a grad program or undergrad comp sci lab.