AMD and DICE move beyond DirectX with Mantle

[PrincessFrosty]

Mantle will go the way of Glide.

This is my initial thoughts.

Mantle CAN be used in Xbone and PS4 but whether they will be or not is another question. The consoles already offer low level access to the hardware without the need of mantle. And multi-platform development is already the norm for modern games due to most of the major engines making this seamless, so I see little benefit there.

As others have pointed out, Sony and Microsoft may be hostile towards its development, MS still want to push DirectX to keep games exclusive to Windows and Xbox.

If it doesn't downright die like Glide did, it will be relegated to PhysX status, a nice to have addition that appears in a few key games that Nvidia/AMD throw buckets of money and resources at for exclusivity, DirectX will remain the staple.

 

[Skurge]

I think you are placing far too much importance on the impact of consoles in the PC space. Just because Xbox One has a similar API doesn't automatically mean every dev will start lazily porting Mantle API games to the PC. They'll maximize profits and that means optimizing for DX 11, not Mantle. NVIDIA + Intel marketshare is far too important and lucrative to give up for a company that has been on the losing end. Also keep in mind, developers don't dictate what goes into a game, its the publisher most of the time because they're the ones funding it and they'll always push for the most widely used standard, not some Glide wannabe API. If anything, I foresee Mantle being used by Indie developers and kickstarter projects.

Next we'll see AMD announce that they're creating their own retail video cards to compete with their vendors ala 3DFX. We all know where that ended.

I swear nobody paid any attention when Mantle was announced. If you don't have an GCN card, it will fall back to DX11. So for you nVidia owners, nothing will be different. For GCN, hex core and octo core users, they will get a boost. If a Game is developed using Mantle it WILL work on any DX11 GPU, just not as fast as a GCN GPU. So nothing changes for Nvidia users. Only the AMD users.

 

[Stuka87]

I swear nobody paid any attention when Mantle was announced. If you don't have an GCN card, it will fall back to DX11. So for you nVidia owners, nothing will be different. For GCN, hex core and octo core users, they will get a boost. If a Game is developed using Mantle it WILL work on any DX11 GPU, just not as fast as a GCN GPU. So nothing changes for Nvidia users. Only the AMD users.

This assumes they code the game for DirectX 11. Which I am going to assume they will so anybody can play it. But there may be some games that are GCN only because they only support Mantle. Maybe a few games a year that are AMD sponsored or something.

 

[Teizo]

If games were designed for PC's and ported to consoles...that would be the best way, but I guess developers don't want to do it because there is not as much money in it.

That is what this is really all about. If there was more money in PC gaming compared to consoles, this wouldn't even be an issue imho.

 

[moonbogg]

The fact that they said, "get the absolute most" out of your hardware with mantle, that tells me they are talking about an extra 5fps or something.

 

[uclaLabrat]

I have a hard time believing Nvidia and Intel would let AMD get away with vendor lock-in for graphics API's for both consoles AND PC's. They will either end up working together for a non-proprietary API or Nvidia & Intel will team up to crush AMD with a competing superior solution.

It doesn't matter what Nvidia and Intel come up with, unless they get it into consoles. And they won't, for the next 5-7 years, it's already locked up. If Mantle works for XB1, PS4, and AMD GCN GPUs, that's about 95% of the market.

Lock, stock and barrel. AMD was playing chess and Nvidia was playing checkers when Nvidia thumbed their noses at the console bidding wars, if it comes to pass.

 

[OCGuy]

This assumes they code the game for DirectX 11. Which I am going to assume they will so anybody can play it. But there may be some games that are GCN only because they only support Mantle. Maybe a few games a year that are AMD sponsored or something.

GCN only? A developer is not going to shutout the vast majority of the PC gaming market, which AMD is not near the top of.

 

[sushiwarrior]

Just because Xbox One has a similar API doesn't automatically mean every dev will start lazily porting Mantle API games to the PC. They'll maximize profits and that means optimizing for DX 11, not Mantle.

But many XB1 devs will already have their game made with Mantle, hence there it is more or less a port to PC rather an a total overhaul for PC. Why NOT use Mantle when your code is already written for it?

 

[Kenmitch]

GCN only? A developer is not going to shutout the vast majority of the PC gaming market, which AMD is not near the top of.

I know your anti-Mantle so I'll look the other way as a person is entitled to his/her own opinions.

An example of how this scenario could work out for the benefit of a developer and AMD at the same time.

Developer A decides to make a console only game and uses Mantle to it's fullest potential. The developer once heavily into the development process decides that the game might not be able to produce sales that will make it profitable to continue. He then decides that using Mantle it would make it easy to port over to the PC.

He then scratches his head and decides he's got a couple of options.

1) Just go with the console sales and see what happens.
2) Kill the game and write off the losses.
3) Strike a deal with AMD for a bundled game at $'s per copy
4) Release game as GCN compatible only.

 

[OCGuy]

I know your anti-Mantle so I'll look the other way as a person is entitled to his/her own opinions.

An example of how this scenario could work out for the benefit of a developer and AMD at the same time.

Developer A decides to make a console only game and uses Mantle to it's fullest potential. The developer once heavily into the development process decides that the game might not be able to produce sales that will make it profitable to continue. He then decides that using Mantle it would make it easy to port over to the PC.

He then scratches his head and decides he's got a couple of options.

1) Just go with the console sales and see what happens.
2) Kill the game and write off the losses.
3) Strike a deal with AMD for a bundled game at $'s per copy
4) Release game as GCN compatible only.

Oh I am not saying that is impossible...but if a game was developed for consoles only, it isn't really relevant to PC gaming enthusiasts. You surely wouldnt need a modern graphics card.

I don't know how anyone can be pro or anti mantle when all we have seen are marketing blurbs that were used to distract from a weak product launch....

I have a GCN card, so if it works out for BF4, I'm already in the game. I am anti-consolization of PC gaming. AMD announced two products yesterday that further blend the two.

 

[Red Hawk]

This thread was kind of redundant. We already had a couple discussing the Mantle announcement.

 

[OCGuy]

nm

 

[krumme]

nm

Well that is not fair because you dont get paid - but you did paid him with your gfx cards and now you have to repeat everything in 4 threads. 4 times 10 more or less the same. You have a hard job. Lol this mantle crazyness all over.

Seriously i agree there should be one thread about this stuff.

 

[Creig]

I think you are placing far too much importance on the impact of consoles in the PC space. Just because Xbox One has a similar API doesn't automatically mean every dev will start lazily porting Mantle API games to the PC. They'll maximize profits and that means optimizing for DX 11, not Mantle.

What you're overlooking is the fact that this is a low-level API that's written for the hardware contained in the XBox One, the PS4 and GCN equipped PC video cards. Low-level programming means you'll get higher performance out a given piece of hardware than going through DX.

And if developers decide to use Mantle for their console games, they can easily copy it over to GCN equipped PC's. Those GCN PC's will then enjoy the performance benefits that come from low-level programming over a high-level API such as DX.

NVIDIA + Intel marketshare is far too important and lucrative to give up for a company that has been on the losing end. Also keep in mind, developers don't dictate what goes into a game, its the publisher most of the time because they're the ones funding it and they'll always push for the most widely used standard, not some Glide wannabe API. If anything, I foresee Mantle being used by Indie developers and kickstarter projects.

I'm sure DX will continue to be around for quite some time. It's not going to just roll over and disappear because AMD created Mantle. But being able to create low-level programming for the XBox One, the PS4 and GCN PC's simultaneously will be a huge boon to developers.

Will they continue to make DX paths for PCs? Of course. But they simply won't be as efficient as their Mantle counterparts. GCN equipped PCs will end up with higher framerates by running Mantle than they would by running a DX path.

Mantle doesn't hurt Nvidia owners. It simply gives a boost to AMD's GCN equipped customers.

 

[stahlhart]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2344633

Closing redundant thread.
-- stahlhart