AMD and DICE move beyond DirectX with Mantle

[csbin]

http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd-launches-mantle-api-to-optimize-pc-gpu-performance.html

At AMD's GPU14 Tech Day event in Hawaii, alongside the brand new Radeon R9 290X GPU, the company has also unveiled a new development model called 'Mantle'. As a combination of both API specifications and GPU drivers, Mantle will allow developers to fully unlock the graphics potential of the GCN architecture of the new (and likely the previous) Radeon series, through low-level high-performance drivers.
Battlefield 4 will be the first title to use Mantle, with the technology coming through a free update in December. Mantle brings greater control of the GPU and CPU to game developers, especially in the memory department, which will allow games to harness the full potential of graphics cards. This model will be more similar to what is found on consoles, where developers have huge control over what hardware they use in their games.

While the technology is still in early stages, EA says it will allow PC game developers to harness even more graphics power than ever before. Where possible, Mantle will be used instead of DirectX 11 on compatible AMD hardware, although it's still compatible with other rendering APIs. AMD claims Mantle enables nine times more draw calls per second than other APIs, which is a huge increase in performance.
We've been told at the GPU14 Tech Day event that the Mantle API is open, so theoretically Nvidia could purpose the technology in their GPUs. It should also make cross-development between PC and console games a lot easier, and also more incredible for those with a high-performance AMD GPU.
More information on Mantle will be available at the AMD Developer Summit in November.

 

[5150Joker]

Now NVIDIA will come out w/their own proprietary API and neither will ever get used beyond a few titles and everyone will go back to DX.

 

[DooKey]

Mantle will go the way of Glide.

 

[5150Joker]

Mantle will go the way of Glide.

Yep pretty much. It's funny seeing all the AMD fanboys on here get all hyped up. One of them already predicted the death of NVIDIA due to Mantle..lol.

Warning issued for inflammatory language.
-- stahlhart

 

[MeldarthX]

Mantle will go the way of Glide.

You might want to rethink that...

Reports already saying Mantle is the low level API for X1 and PS4 - so that's 3 platforms that will it.....

Along with most likely steamOS....very doubleful it will go the way of glide....

 

[imaheadcase]

Now NVIDIA will come out w/their own proprietary API and neither will ever get used beyond a few titles and everyone will go back to DX.

You got it. History is doomed to repeat itself.

It sucks though. BF4 is going to be popular, and if benchmarks come out showing it a insane lead over nvidia cards people are going to be pissed. Just like steamOS, be a niche market.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

You might want to rethink that...

Reports already saying Mantle is the low level API for X1 and PS4 - so that's 3 platforms that will it.....

Along with most likely steamOS....very doubleful it will go the way of glide....

While I don't see why SteamOS wouldn't support Mantle, I can't see anything besides OpenGL really seeing much use.

 

[flopper]

You might want to rethink that...

Reports already saying Mantle is the low level API for X1 and PS4 - so that's 3 platforms that will it.....

Along with most likely steamOS....very doubleful it will go the way of glide....

Plus developers like dice wanted this.......now amd is giving them it...and time to go wild with gaming is upon us.
I just wait for the Nvidia backlash and PR smear camp to get going as they are good at that.

 

[Teizo]

So, Raja Koduri from Apple goes to AMD and AMD starts using Apples proprietary methods.

Coincidence?

Can't say I blame them too much, but will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

 

[PricklyPete]

So, Raja Koduri from Apple goes to AMD and AMD starts using Apples proprietary methods.

Coincidence?

Can't say I blame them too much, but will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

I thought it was stated that this is open... So what are you getting at?

 

[Arkadrel]

You got it. History is doomed to repeat itself.

It sucks though. BF4 is going to be popular, and if benchmarks come out showing it a insane lead over nvidia cards people are going to be pissed. Just like steamOS, be a niche market.

BF4 wont have mantle ready at release, which is when everyone will benchmark the games & cards, so it wont show nvidia being behide at first.

Then it comes down to if reviewers actually want to show it.
I could see Anandtech just ignoreing it altogether (would be typical, Im kinda expecting that).

However if this really does give x9 draw calls, then this could very well be a huge improvement to performance for AMD users.

It would be cool to see a nvidia titan get like 60fps, and a radeon 290 getting like 120 fps or something like that, due to mantle. I kinda hope this takes off, and we all see performance gains due to low level codeing & become free from being locked down by windows + directx.

I thought it was stated that this is open... So what are you getting at?

Nvidia would have to design their cards to work with it, before it could.
Thats not very likely, its more likely they come up with their own version of mantle.



I can see linux users really loveing this, and gabe and his steambox.
This is a huge kick in the nuts to MS.

 

[Teizo]

I thought it was stated that this is open... So what are you getting at?

I thought it was too, but the article Ryan just posted this morning makes it sound a bit more proprietary.

It's one thing to support a feature like phys-x or tress-fx, but it is another thing entirely to try leverage the competition in such an aggressive fashion.

Apple is well known for their proprietary lock downs...and AMD fanboy's hated Nvidia for phys-x and cuda and other stuff (TWIMTBP), but now all of sudden Mantle is great. So, it will be interesting to see how all this plays out, and just how much performance this unlocks.

Developers wanting an easier way to port console games to pc makes sense, and AMD being in charge of both consoles puts them in the position where they are in best position to do it, so like I say, I can't blame them.

Warning issued for inflammatory language.
-- stahlhart

 

[Final8ty]

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack

 

[96Firebird]

...and AMD fanboy's hated Nvidia for phys-x and cuda and other stuff, but now all of sudden Mantle is great.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

I don't like where this is headed...

 

[MeldarthX]

While I don't see why SteamOS wouldn't support Mantle, I can't see anything besides OpenGL really seeing much use.

Because - MS is using it; Sony is using it......MS uses DX; Sony uses OpenGL...

Guess what this is lower than that; we've gotten reports that this is the API; not just for X1; but for PS4 -

you don't think Gabe wouldn't use this for steamOS? specially when he's trying to show linux is faster for gaming than windows. You have this; which in the end could show exactly that? But you wouldn't use it?

Gabe is about making sure we stay in his walled garden over MS - using this on windows showing a whole hell of alot faster will do the op effect.

 

[Arkadrel]

@Meldarthx

Let me play devils advocate for abit.

Lets say MS realises this is the future, APIs that code closer to metal and that eventually Directx will give way to this sort of thing in 1 fashion or another.
Ei. that DX cannot compete at close to metal level.

Could you imagine a new standart comeing out that only ran on linux, and windows being left out? Why would Microsoft want that?

Also lets say the oppersite is true, gabe talks about the need for low level codeing on windows, windows gets it in the form of mantle. However gabe wont use it on his new linux steambox? how would that work out? (probably not well).

 

[KingFatty]

So will Mantle be like the next version of direct X, where you gotta run it now, because everything will need it, and if you are not on the AMD bandwagon then you are dragging in the mud? Better not be, I think it should be like an optional feature the way Physx is, where if you have AMD good for you, you get a little boost, but if you have Nvidia, you are fine, you will just now get the same FPS as AMD instead of more?

 

[QuantumPion]

I have a hard time believing Nvidia and Intel would let AMD get away with vendor lock-in for graphics API's for both consoles AND PC's. They will either end up working together for a non-proprietary API or Nvidia & Intel will team up to crush AMD with a competing superior solution.

 

[GaiaHunter]

So will Mantle be like the next version of direct X, where you gotta run it now, because everything will need it, and if you are not on the AMD bandwagon then you are dragging in the mud? Better not be, I think it should be like an optional feature the way Physx is, where if you have AMD good for you, you get a little boost, but if you have Nvidia, you are fine, you will just now get the same FPS as AMD instead of more?

Mantle will coexist with DX - if you can run mantle you benefit from it, if not you default to DX11 and nothing changes.

 

[Arkadrel]

@KingFatty

The way I understand it, its like Glide.

There might be wrappers that allow nvidia to run it decently but, the biggest performance gains will be with GCN cards.

Imagine seeing a GTX titan use DirectX 11, and seeing a 7870 useing Mantle,
and the 7870 beating the GTX Titan in performance.

That could be a real scenario in the near future, in alot of games that have mantle versions.
If this really does give a 9x performance increase in draw calls, which should be a decent boost in performance.

 

[96Firebird]

The fact that the "Mantle upgrade" for BF4 is coming out at least a month after it's release tells me it is nothing special for that game. Future games might benefit more though.

 

[Kenmitch]

Now NVIDIA will come out w/their own proprietary API and neither will ever get used beyond a few titles and everyone will go back to DX.

Mantle will go the way of Glide.

You guys are funny!

When the next generation console hardware was announced many if not all thought WTF are they thinking.

Those who choose to be loyal to NVidia were LOL stating being in the next generation consoles are of no importance to the future of gaming. Said things like NVidia didn't want to be in the consoles as it's not profitable, blah, blah....You get the point.

GPUs are hitting the wall of diminishing returns with little performance gains to be had it looks like to me.

CPUs are somewhat in the same situation currently as most of todays software doesn't take full advantage of the hardware.

AMD being in the consoles gives them the opportunity to make a change for the better, allow the power of the console to be tapped better, increase graphical details, etc to those that choose to play on the consoles.

Mantle looks to be for tapping the power of the console to it's fullest extent which is a good thing. Getting rid of as much software related overhead is a good thing. The next generation consoles don't have the greatest specs compared to many rigs....But what's to say they aren't good enough once the overhead is eliminated.

Those who thought console technology, optimization wouldn't spill over into PC gaming are possibly in for a rude awakening.

Instead of giving AMD kudos for the bold move you bury your heads in the sand. Make statements like WE can brute force the advantages(if any) NVidia can make their own low-level API, etc.

I would have loved to see JHH face go from laughing to tears when Mantle was announced.

Disclaimer: Although I do own a GCN card I'd classify myself as a casual gamer and that might be pushing it. Maybe more like a once in a while gamer to be fair.

 

[Stuka87]

Now NVIDIA will come out w/their own proprietary API and neither will ever get used beyond a few titles and everyone will go back to DX.

The difference is that Mantle is directly comparable to whats on all of the consoles. nVidia is not on any of the consoles. So they can make an API, but developers will not be able to do a 1:1 port to a PC using their API.

It is possible Mantle will fail, but speaking from a developers point of view, I highly expect devs to be THRILLED with the idea of Mantle.

 

[Stuka87]

I have a hard time believing Nvidia and Intel would let AMD get away with vendor lock-in for graphics API's for both consoles AND PC's. They will either end up working together for a non-proprietary API or Nvidia & Intel will team up to crush AMD with a competing superior solution.

Non-Proprietary API = DirectX

The only way to get a "to the metal" API to work is to have it especially coded for a given piece of hardware. It will not work for Intel or nVidia GPU's. To make it work for them, it has to be a higher level API, like DirectX or OpenGL.

And then we get right back into the "tons of overhead" setup and all performance gains are lost.

 

[5150Joker]

The difference is that Mantle is directly comparable to whats on all of the consoles. nVidia is not on any of the consoles. So they can make an API, but developers will not be able to do a 1:1 port to a PC using their API.

It is possible Mantle will fail, but speaking from a developers point of view, I highly expect devs to be THRILLED with the idea of Mantle.

I think you are placing far too much importance on the impact of consoles in the PC space. Just because Xbox One has a similar API doesn't automatically mean every dev will start lazily porting Mantle API games to the PC. They'll maximize profits and that means optimizing for DX 11, not Mantle. NVIDIA + Intel marketshare is far too important and lucrative to give up for a company that has been on the losing end. Also keep in mind, developers don't dictate what goes into a game, its the publisher most of the time because they're the ones funding it and they'll always push for the most widely used standard, not some Glide wannabe API. If anything, I foresee Mantle being used by Indie developers and kickstarter projects.

Next we'll see AMD announce that they're creating their own retail video cards to compete with their vendors ala 3DFX. We all know where that ended.