AMD accuses former top employees of stealing

[Olikan]

AMD filed a complaint yesterday alleging that four of its former employees—one former vice-president and three former managers—transferred sensitive AMD documents before joining competing graphics chip maker NVIDIA and then violated a “no-solicitation of employees” promise. The company alleges that Robert Feldstein, Manoo Desai, Nicolas Kociuk collectively downloaded over 100,000 files onto external hard drives in the six months before leaving the company. All three and another manager, Richard Hagen, were accused of recruiting AMD employees after leaving for NVIDIA.

D:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-employees-of-stealing-over-100000-documents/

 

[Abwx]

Did read a little..

So those [guys] thought that they could load data from
corporate networked PCs without the operation being registered
by security tools...

Indeed they were mediocre people , hence the need to steal
data to appear as valuable for their recruiters....

No profanity in the technical forums
-ViRGE

 

[ShintaiDK]

Indeed they were mediocre people , hence the need to steal
data to appear as valuable for their recruiters....

No recruiter would accept anyone with illegal data.

 

[itsmydamnation]

No recruiter would accept anyone with illegal data.

offering illegal data, they could still use it to benefit themselves by knowing what to target etc, people have very large "at risk" /performance payments.

 

[Idontcare]

This will be very difficult to actually go anywhere in the courts.

They have no evidence to make a claim that the AMD info was transferred to Nvidia (which is why such claim is missing in the filings) which means they have not established a foundation for claiming damages of any sort...that means there is almost no chance a conviction of any materially significant consequences will be forthcoming. At most they will get a slap on the wrist misdemeanor charge that is immediately suspended for a probationary period.

Secondly, the "recruiting employees" bit actually stands to backfire on AMD because of right-to-work laws. AMD employees (past and present) can class-action lawsuit AMD, now that it has gone on record as engaging in anti-employment measures, and sue them for reducing their marketability and worth on the open market with other employers.

The courts are rife with examples where so called "anti-poaching agreements" are looked down upon as being anti-competitive. AMD just opened themselves up. Dumb, just dumb, IMO.

In the end the courts will tell AMD that if the documents were really that sensitive to AMD's business then AMD should have secured them better as a matter of standard business protocol (but AMD can't show that the documents were ever used to harm them so it is moot anyways) and that AMD is not allowed to compel employees to restrict employment opportunities and worker rights of their employees.

You don't get to hoard your employees like indentured servants while actively preventing others from soliciting them to leave AMD and go work elsewhere. I pity the AMD lawyers whenever they eventually end up in front of a judge who finally reviews that claim

 

[laputan machine]

I would be surprised if NVIDIA accepted the stolen data, or even knew about it. The potential risk would seem awfully big. Employees do steal data, last year an ex Intel one got sent to jail, so as far as them being guilty would not be shocking.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Biswamohan-Pani-Intel-AMD-Prison-FBI,16771.html

 

[leper84]

I would be surprised if NVIDIA accepted the stolen data, or even knew about it. The potential risk would seem awfully big. Employees do steal data, last year an ex Intel one got sent to jail, so as far as them being guilty would not be shocking.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Biswamohan-Pani-Intel-AMD-Prison-FBI,16771.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPcql4FuCK0

Yeah I was thinking too whether they sold/gave the data to nvidia or not it might be a pretty big dang deal if they stole trade secrets.

 

[TuxDave]

I don't know how far they'll get on the anti-poaching thing but I can only hope that nvidia fully cooperatives to see if any documents made it onto their computers. Bring in the FBI if they can. And if they do find it? Fire and jail those guys.

 

[blackened23]

They have no evidence to make a claim that the AMD info was transferred to Nvidia (which is why such claim is missing in the filings) which means they have not established a foundation for claiming damages of any sort...that means there is almost no chance a conviction of any materially significant consequences will be forthcoming. At most they will get a slap on the wrist misdemeanor charge that is immediately suspended for a probationary period.

From what i've read, AMDs lawyers have forensic evidence establishing that the four employees stole insider trade information, and also searched for methods of hiding their tracks. If it was truly innocent, why would they go to such extraordinary lengths to hide their tracks? Also, extremetech also mentioned that current AMD employees were also contacted and encouraged to also share insider trade secrets.

The fact that current employees were contacted by the 4 ex employees, and encouraged to also share trade secrets, seems pretty damning.

From what I remember, the same thing happened to an ex-intel employee that ended up at AMD - and it did not end up well for him at all.

 

[Idontcare]

From what i've read, AMDs lawyers have forensic evidence establishing that the four employees stole insider trade information, and also searched for methods of hiding their tracks. If it was truly innocent, why would they go to such extraordinary lengths to hide their tracks? Also, extremetech also mentioned that current AMD employees were also contacted and encouraged to also share insider trade secrets.

The fact that current employees were contacted by the 4 ex employees, and encouraged to also share trade secrets, seems pretty damning.

From what I remember, the same thing happened to an ex-intel employee that ended up at AMD - and it did not end up well for him at all.

Kinda sad that AMD did not feel compelled to seek prosecution against their own CEO who was side-dealing in insider secrets as well. That is one golden parachute that just doesn't quit

That said, knowing now that the ethics were rotten at the top for so many years it isn't really a surprise to find out that a few other rotten apples may have found themselves in league with their CEO, taking a page from same business ethics manual :\

Honestly though if I was AMD and I had the choice of constructing arbitrary boundary conditions that artificially kept disinterested and unloyal employees on my side of the security firewall versus letting those theiving bastards go work for my competitor, I'd pay them to go work for my competitor Let the competition get exactly what they deserve

 

[blackened23]

Indeed, it seems that mis-management and incompetence is a bigger issue at AMD. At this point they probably do deserve what they get. From what I've read, Hector Ruiz basically ran AMD into the ground while embezzling money...is that who you're referring to as far as a CEO giving out insider information?

 

[Idontcare]

Indeed, it seems that mis-management and incompetence is a bigger issue at AMD. At this point they probably do deserve what they get. From what I've read, Hector Ruiz basically ran AMD into the ground while embezzling money...is that who you're referring to as far as a CEO giving out insider information?

Yes, Ruiz.

My point was just more to the effect of saying AMD is better off having poachable employees be poached, particularly the one's that are challenged in the business ethics dept, because they are likely causing more damage than benefit as unscrupulous AMD employees in the meantime.

People who steal company info in order to further their own personal agenda, be it their career ambitions or financial ambitions, are the very sort of people who will never have their employers best interests in mind during any part of the workday.

You are basically paying them to steal you blind until the day they find a greener pasture to jump to. So let them jump, hell I'd pay my competitors a thank-you bonus just for vetting my employee list and assisting me in removing the ones that need to be shown the door in the first place.

And the double-benefit is that not only is that person no longer sucking down salary at your expense, they are also no longer holding back your other employees who truly are trying to get an honest day's worth of work done, and that person is now sucking up resources at your competitor and slowing them down in the process.

Isn't that a win-win?

 

[Olikan]

ninja'd

 

[Olikan]

People who steal company info in order to further their own personal agenda, be it their career ambitions or financial ambitions, are the very sort of people who will never have their employers best interests in mind during any part of the workday.

You are basically paying them to steal you blind until the day they find a greener pasture to jump to. So let them jump, hell I'd pay my competitors a thank-you bonus just for vetting my employee list and assisting me in removing the ones that need to be shown the door in the first place

they are known as office psychopath

 

[BeauCharles]

People who steal company info in order to further their own personal agenda, be it their career ambitions or financial ambitions, are the very sort of people who will never have their employers best interests in mind during any part of the workday.

You are basically paying them to steal you blind until the day they find a greener pasture to jump to. So let them jump, hell I'd pay my competitors a thank-you bonus just for vetting my employee list and assisting me in removing the ones that need to be shown the door in the first place.

With that in mind Nvidia should act appropriately concerning the four.

 

[mrmt]

They have no evidence to make a claim that the AMD info was transferred to Nvidia (which is why such claim is missing in the filings) which means they have not established a foundation for claiming damages of any sort...that means there is almost no chance a conviction of any materially significant consequences will be forthcoming. At most they will get a slap on the wrist misdemeanor charge that is immediately suspended for a probationary period.

(...)

In the end the courts will tell AMD that if the documents were really that sensitive to AMD's business then AMD should have secured them better as a matter of standard business protocol (but AMD can't show that the documents were ever used to harm them so it is moot anyways) and that AMD is not allowed to compel employees to restrict employment opportunities and worker rights of their employees.

I don't think the real target are the former employees but rather Nvidia.

Losing a VP is bad enough for a business, as nobody tend to know their units as well as they do. Sales target, cost targets, budget, direction and a lot of other high level variables comes straight for them. It isn't uncommon to them to have more say than the CEO in a lot of subjects, and a lot of this info is in their head, not in any document. But losing documentation explaining the underlying premisses around their forecasts and the very internal models for decision making is very, very bad.

And what was stolen was no engineering secret that could take years to become a competitive product in the hands of your competitor like the info Intel engineer stole, but management information that could help Nvidia to turn the tables here and there in a matter of months.

Take for example pricing for the 8xxx series. Nvidia can beat the hell out of AMD market share if they know in advance how they will price 8xxx series to OEMs. And Nvidia shouldn't even be aware of the info their new executives are using. A few innocents comments in a lunch and AMD market strategy is RIP. But this is not the worst part.

What if you have the entire business models of your competitor? Nvidia can know where to push AMD. How many they can spend on development, market, where they plan to push, where they are weak, etc. And what if AMD has ongoing negotiations with OEMs for something like Steambox or tablets? AMD can't really enter into this kind of negotiation with its competitor knowing what you are going to propose, or at least having the entire model mechanisms and premisses behind your bid.

The way this was done seems more aimed to kill whatever possibilities of this information to be used and to safeguard some ongoing negotiations from Nvidia interference, something that could allow AMD to sue Nvidia in case of losing a negotiation, or even preventing Nvidia from joining in the competition.

 

[AnandThenMan]

This will be very difficult to actually go anywhere in the courts.

Serious question, are you a lawyer? I know of a case similar to this (but involving much smaller companies) and one person did end up doing jail time, and was also ordered to pay damages.

Yes, Ruiz.

I think Ruiz was an incompetent manager, but he had a lot of great ideas, just didn't know how to motivate his company to execute on them. Plus he is way too arrogant to run a company. But he did orchestrate the ATI acquisition, probably the most important think AMD has ever done out side of coming up with AMD64 to stay relevant.

My point was just more to the effect of saying AMD is better off having poachable employees be poached, particularly the one's that are challenged in the business ethics dept, because they are likely causing more damage than benefit as unscrupulous AMD employees in the meantime.

People who steal company info in order to further their own personal agenda, be it their career ambitions or financial ambitions, are the very sort of people who will never have their employers best interests in mind during any part of the workday.

You are basically paying them to steal you blind until the day they find a greener pasture to jump to. So let them jump, hell I'd pay my competitors a thank-you bonus just for vetting my employee list and assisting me in removing the ones that need to be shown the door in the first place.

And the double-benefit is that not only is that person no longer sucking down salary at your expense, they are also no longer holding back your other employees who truly are trying to get an honest day's worth of work done, and that person is now sucking up resources at your competitor and slowing them down in the process.

Isn't that a win-win?

I think it says a lot about Nvidia if they keep these people employed. I expect Nvidia to immediately suspend them, and ultimately fire them even if they are not found guilty. The fact that they spent 6 months gathering and archiving confidential info is pretty damning, how can Nvidia trust these people now?

And no it's not a win-win, said files could end up who knows where, accidentally or on purpose. Such information is meant to be kept secret and secure for a reason.

 

[ramj70]

I expect Nvidia to immediately suspend them, and ultimately fire them even if they are not found guilty.

So you believe that if anyone is named in a civil suit they should be suspended and even if found not guilty fired from their job? If that is the case then millions of people would be out of jobs. So far we have a civil complaint that gives AMD's side of the story, I think it's unfair to make a judgment on just that.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Suspending someone doesn't mean they are out of a job. But continuing to let said people operate with the company is ill advised.

 

[ramj70]

Suspending someone doesn't mean they are out of a job. But continuing to let said people operate with the company is ill advised.

But you did say fire them if found not guilty, which is what I was referring to with people being out of a job. People are sued every day with claims that may not be true. Of course it is up to each company on whether to suspend someone or not, but firing someone even if found not guilty?

It's possible that these guys did steal the information and if so they should be punished, but we should wait until all the facts come out before making a judgment instead of taking one side because we don't like the other side.

 

[guskline]

I read the complaint which was filed in Federal Court in Massachusetts. WOW! Serious allegations with potentially devastating consequences to these four individuals.

 

[AnandThenMan]

But you did say fire them if found not guilty...

If they are found not guilty, but Nvidia believes they are guilty, then yes they should be let go.

Honestly if I was running Nvidia, I would not want such people around. The only way I would keep them if by some crazy circumstances these people were actually innocent, but I highly doubt that is the case. Which is why, even if they get off by a technicality or whatever, you can't trust such people to stay on with the company. They could burn you just like they burned their former employer.

BTW, reading the restraining order, it even lists specific hardware including the serial numbers that must be preserved! These guys will have their first court appearance Jan 17.

 

[Ferzerp]

The contrast between this thread and the thread on the video card forum is amusing.

Amusing and very telling.

 

[Vesku]

I imagine AMD is pursuing legal remedy due to how blatant the appropriation of proprietary information allegedly was and as an attempt at discouraging others leaving the company (which they've had a lot of recently) from engaging in the same behavior.

 

[piesquared]

I guess MS, Sony, Nintendo, and whoever else was compromised from the theft of these documents will surely put their full support behind AMD in this case. I wouldn't want to be in these fella's shoes, or nvidia's if they are implicated.