AMD 7000 Initial IQ Issues *Now fixed* [Tom's Hardware Review]

[boxleitnerb]

BTW screenshots are only like 1/4 of the IQ story.
Motion is the real deal.

Download Witcher 2 videos (it's raw uncompressed video)
http://ht4u.net/reviews/2011/amd_radeon_hd_7900_southern_island_test/index9.php

and then compare AMD and NV.

If you don't see clearly which one has the superior IQ,
you have more pressing things to worry about then the image quality.

Matter of fact you don't have to worry about image quality EVER.

The problem with the Witcher was that Nvidia is doing trilinear (in all DX10+ apps btw), overriding what the game wants while this particular game somehow ordered bi/brilinear and the Radeon provided just that. In other games this problem does not exist.
The Geforce still provides a bit smoother AF, though. But the bad shimmering is finally gone, so I guess one might call them almost equal.

 

[f1sherman]

Agreed.
7000 blurienar is definitely better looking then the AF firework on 6000.

Are we sure Nvidia is overriding what the game asks?

And if they are overriding,
what that actually mean is that Nvidia is paying attention to IQ quality in a particular game,
(Witcher 2 is DX9)

and does not just C/P some general rendering profile.

 

[notty22]

Agreed.
7000 blurienar is definitely better looking then the AF firework on 6000.

Are we sure Nvidia is overriding what the game asks?

And if they are overriding,
what that actually mean is that Nvidia is paying attention to IQ quality in a particular game,
(Witcher 2 is DX9)

and does not just C/P some general rendering profile.

Are you familiar with Nvidia Inspector ?
You can look at all the various options there are and compare to another dx9 game ?
You can choose to export all profiles to a text file, under export user defined profiles.
Select
export all profiles (nvidia text format)

Don't know if this is helpful to some.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Afaik Nvidia filters trilinear in DX10/10.1/11, no matter what the app wants.
The Witcher thing was discussed extensively at 3dcenter.org and it turned out to be an application bug. This much I know.

 

[railven]

Agreed.
7000 blurienar is definitely better looking then the AF firework on 6000.

Are we sure Nvidia is overriding what the game asks?

And if they are overriding,
what that actually mean is that Nvidia is paying attention to IQ quality in a particular game,
(Witcher 2 is DX9)

and does not just C/P some general rendering profile.

I just find this ironic, because I recall a while back a counter to the Tess slider for AMD was "you don't alter what the devs want you to see."

And here, it is a plus.

All in all, I'm glad they fixed it - I can't say I noticed it, but in the Skyrim still it is clear as day. I just don't happen to play Skyrim.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Well, messing with tessellation can introduce artifacts and lessens the workload. Doing always tri improves quality and costs performance (maybe 1%, lol), so it is the exact opposite

 

[railven]

Well, messing with tessellation can introduce artifacts and lessens the workload. Doing always tri improves quality and costs performance (maybe 1%, lol), so it is the exact opposite

Missing the point. At one point - it was argued at one point any modification to the code that changed what the devs intended you to see was wrong.

 

[notty22]

A IQ optimization or a performance optimization are on opposite sides of a fine line.
Fixing a problem while adding or not adding any gpu performance load is not the same as lowering load the gpu needs to perform and then subjectively gauge whether quality has been effected.

 

[BoFox]

Regarding one of the most positively-rated comments over at Tom's article - there's another comment:
http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?p=63013#p63013
The comment is directed at AMD as a company, not as flamebait.

95% of the [H] members agreed with me before Kyle voted against all of them, so I could probably speaking for the consensus.
See here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1530939
(of course, Kyle banned me after a heated argument via PM's. He said that my name kept on coming up at AMD's board meetings. After Kyle locked the thread right after voting against 95% of the "majority", I did "encourage" him to lose his cool and blow through the roof right there after really rubbing it in via the PM's. Seems like 95% of those were "pwned" by him in his own territory, except for me who refused to bend over. Oh well.. the problem never *really* went away ever since with different kinds of sugar-coatings.

At the same time, right now, the petition for LOD adjustments in DX10/11 games when SSAA is enabled is being stickied over at NV forums (even though MS does not allow tampering of DX10/11 games in WHQL drivers). By comparison, it would be nice if AMD could have ever even allowed these threads without locking them at AMD's own forums.

I know this is a very sensitive topic, but I'm discussing AMD's ethics here according to the topic, once again, with the focus aimed at AMD and not the enthusiasts here or anywhere else. Please (as something that would be kindly appreciated) understand this that the message is only directed towards AMD as a company, and nothing else.

Personally, as a Radeon enthusiast for many years, I did like my 9800 Pro, X800XT AIW, and X1900XTX better than Nvidia's "equivalent" offerings that I had in the other rig until my 7900GTX SLI was really fast enough to re-play many of the older games in S3D. For several months before I got the 7900GTX'es, I was really enjoying the HQ AF that the X1900XTX offered, along with 6x AA and Quality AAA in several games. And even though HD 5870 offered angle-independent AF, I still preferred my HD 4870 1GB's image quality over that of the 5870 - merely as a personal preference. This is just to let you know where I was coming from. A sense of genuine respect from the company is something that does means a lot for many customers (at least for me when I used to spend $500 on video cards). If AMD becomes more responsive and involved with the customers who want more IQ options and better quality support, it should certainly be a win-win scenario whether or not AMD can actually support these IQ options without incurring severe performance losses. The conduct alone goes a long way (usually in subtle ways that can be truly rewarding to even the most greedy and spineless executive). Apple by comparison did offer superb quality, but still had some shortcomings, with the CEO himself dying of something really black (metaphorically saying). Not to sound like a preacher, but good begets good! Sorry.. I gotta stop now, and once again, it's just a voice that has declared itself to be aimed at AMD and only AMD.

 

[railven]

A IQ optimization or a performance optimization are on opposite sides of a fine line.
Fixing a problem while adding or not adding any gpu performance load is not the same as lowering load the gpu needs to perform and then subjectively gauge whether quality has been effected.

I agree, alternations can be good or bad, but ultimately the end user should have total control.

Regarding one of the most positively-rated comments over at Tom's article - there's another comment:
http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?p=63013#p63013
The comment is directed at AMD as a company, not as flamebait.

Can you just post the quote directly from THG, no reason why you have direct traffic to your affiliated site.

 

[BoFox]

Oh, didn't want to make the post too long, turning it into an overwhelming wall of text.

I'll add it here, but gotta go right now. BBL..

 

[videogames101]

It's just a question - the very question that the article investigates.

Better yet, it's a rather good thing that Toms investigated it, else HD 7xxx owners would probably be suffering these IQ issues for some more time (even indefinitely).

You can ask the same question except inverse it and suddenly the article gets no hits.

 

[Outrage]

Oh, didn't want to make the post too long, turning it into an overwhelming wall of text.

I'll add it here, but gotta go right now. BBL..

Then maybe you should have taken out your drivel about your hardocp incident, that dont have any connection whatsoever with this thread. And replaced it with the quote instead.....

 

[f1sherman]

I agree, alternations can be good or bad, but ultimately the end user should have total control.

No thank you.
If the default that game is pushing is as [lousy] looking as SI and NI seem to propose for Witcher 2,
I'd rather have driver people fiddle with the default IQ.
And it wouldn't be the 1st time Nvidia doing the developers job, writing AA and whatnot.
I am curious how this will end up though, because I wasn't buying fixed-AF-in-7000 story to begin with.

Nvidia has had better AF since 8800 days
(don't sue me, not 100% sure, but I know X1800 was superior in this department to GF 7800),
and yet they do not dare to decrease IQ.
They know very well that enthusiast user-base WOULD BURRY THEM ALIVE.
And that is how I like it.

AMD otoh has it's share of AF problems, and yet they fiddle with IQ on regular basis.
Funny thing though, if it wasn't for these couple of German websites and Toms (if I remember correctly)
7000 would most likely not get ANY AF improvements.

So don't be shy, speak about what troubles you with your HW,
it's the only way to make things better in the future.

@notty22 of course I am familiar with NV inspector. Its the best thing ever

Reminder: no profanity in the technical forums
-ViRGE

 

[railven]

No thank you.
If the default that game is pushing is as [lousy] looking as SI and NI seem to propose for Witcher 2,
I'd rather have driver people fiddle with the default IQ.
And it wouldn't be the 1st time Nvidia doing the developers job, writing AA and whatnot.
I am curious how this will end up though, because I wasn't buying fixed-AF-in-7000 story to begin with.

Nvidia has had better AF since 8800 days
(don't sue me, not 100% sure, but I know X1800 was superior in this department to GF 7800),
and yet they do not dare to decrease IQ.
They know very well that enthusiast user-base WOULD BURRY THEM ALIVE.
And that is how I like it.

AMD otoh has it's share of AF problems, and yet they fiddle with IQ on regular basis.
Funny thing though, if it wasn't for these couple of German websites and Toms (if I remember correctly)
7000 would most likely not get ANY AF improvements.

So don't be shy, speak about what troubles you with your HW,
it's the only way to make things better in the future.

@notty22 of course I am familiar with NV inspector. Its the best thing ever

Not sure what this has to do with me saying the more options the better. But, okay?

 

[BoFox]

Then maybe you should have taken out your drivel about your hardocp incident, that dont have any connection whatsoever with this thread. And replaced it with the quote instead.....

Please, not with the rude-ness and inflammatory attacks. The connection is in the context, related to a nearly identical issue with AMD.

Here's the quote:

OK, boys and girls, it is hand holding time. Step by step, here is why you should care.

1) AMD did not catch this. For months, AMD did not catch this. Even after Tom's and others mentioned quality difference in reviews, AMD did nothing to fix this. Finally, it took a big chunk of one person's time to lay things out indisputably to get AMD to look at this. Does this not sound like a company with a problem?
1a) Most companies who are interested in working WITH people will consider communication a 2 way street. As in, Tom's tells AMD, "We have these interesting results here." AMD SHOULD say, "Hmm, give us some time to take a look, and we will get back to you." NOT leave you hanging, wondering if your comment ever got noticed. Does this not sound like a company with a problem?
1b) Aside from the video card industries dodgy history with benchmarks and quality, AMD AND ONLY AMD, had a huge 2D rendering problem a few years back. Many, many users, including the Linux community, caught this and tried to contact AMD about it. Not until Tom's did the research and posted the numbers did AMD truly get involved and realize they made a huge mistake. Still thinking AMD does not have a problem?

Opinion, feel free to skip. Seems to me AMD has inherited and perpetuated ATI's lack of response to the community. And if Tom's is as pro nVidia as some of you seem to think, why would AMD even care what Tom's writes?

2) AMD screws up, and most of the posters are all "Meh, stop the AMD bashing." If nothing else, AMD quality control needs some help! In your defense, you are absolutely right, the texture difference is very small. But, don't you think AMD should have processes in place to catch even small problems as this? And don't you think the fact their current processes missed this problem is cause for concern?

Honestly, if you truly do not care that Tom's did the research and put together an article that directly resulted in a driver update, especially when AMD was not responding to any other input on the subject, go somewhere else. This site is not for you.

(from page 4 of the comments at http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/image-quality-driver-optimization-graphics,3173.html )

You can ask the same question except inverse it and suddenly the article gets no hits.

And suddenly AMD doesn't care to fix the issue for an unforeseen amount of time... :hmm: The glass is half-full, ya know.

 

[blackened23]

No thank you.
If the default that game is pushing is as [lousy] looking as SI and NI seem to propose for Witcher 2,
I'd rather have driver people fiddle with the default IQ.
And it wouldn't be the 1st time Nvidia doing the developers job, writing AA and whatnot.
I am curious how this will end up though, because I wasn't buying fixed-AF-in-7000 story to begin with.

Nvidia has had better AF since 8800 days
(don't sue me, not 100% sure, but I know X1800 was superior in this department to GF 7800),
and yet they do not dare to decrease IQ.
They know very well that enthusiast user-base WOULD BURRY THEM ALIVE.
And that is how I like it.

AMD otoh has it's share of AF problems, and yet they fiddle with IQ on regular basis.
Funny thing though, if it wasn't for these couple of German websites and Toms (if I remember correctly)
7000 would most likely not get ANY AF improvements.

So don't be shy, speak about what troubles you with your HW,
it's the only way to make things better in the future.

@notty22 of course I am familiar with NV inspector. Its the best thing ever

What?

 

[darkewaffle]

BURRIED ALIVE!

For my money, if you can't see a difference on a normal sized screenshot, it's not really a difference at all.

 

[railven]

BURRIED ALIVE!

For my money, if you can't see a difference on a normal sized screenshot, it's not really a difference at all.

With Skyrim I'd wager if we were given normal sized screen shots, we'd all see the difference.

Crysis 2, nope, and forgot the other game. But Skyrim was blatantly obvious.

 

[videogames101]

Please, not with the rude-ness and inflammatory attacks. The connection is in the context, related to a nearly identical issue with AMD.

Here's the quote:

(from page 4 of the comments at http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/image-quality-driver-optimization-graphics,3173.html )


And suddenly AMD doesn't care to fix the issue for an unforeseen amount of time... :hmm: The glass is half-full, ya know.

They fixed it before the article was released, no? So... bullshit?

 

[BoFox]

They fixed it before the article was released, no? So... bullshit?

Probably not because it seems (IIRC) that Tom's was kind enough to let AMD know of this very article before it was published (with the title already intact). AMD was given enough pressure to actually respond to the article in time, even though it was not done earlier. If I'm mistaken, somebody correct me please.

 

[f1sherman]

Report: AMD Catalyst 4.12 WHQL @ Computerbase

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/...bschnitt_anisotrope_filterung_wurde_geaendert

Google translation