Am I a Liberal?

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busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
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<< Christian values are subjective, and so is the idea of compassion. Liberty is universal. There is no "grey area"...either you have control of your life or somebody else does. Libertarianism is very much grounded in prinicples because it is NOT contradictory. Liberty is the baseline. The other two are hit-or-miss and hypocritical. >>


Sure Christian values and compassion are subjective. But if the two of them (either or) combine to form the basis of the majority of American beliefs, it then becomes the baseline for debate... Do you feel that you have so little freedom living in the US that you're concerned someone else has or threatens to have full "control of your life"? I just don't understand that thinking...


<<

<< Freedom is a wonderful thing, something more precious than gold to those who don't have it. But for those Americans who are so alarmed that we are somehow loosing our freedoms... how myopic... Try looking to the rest of the world for a sense of perspective. >>


Perspective? So if we are more free than 95% of the world's population, that justifies the authoritarians to trample on or roll back our rights? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's a slap in the face for the people who suffered so we could have the rights we currently enjoy.
>>


Am I missing something here? Did I miss all those authoritarians trampling over my back? I don't seem to recall...
Look. I don't quite disagree with you. I'm asking you for a couple examples of freedoms which clearly you feel have been denied to you for me to better understand your perspective...


<< Don't point the finger at Libertarianism for the world's ills. Much of the world is unfree because man chooses to give up his rights to the State and the Church.

And Libertarianism is not exclusive. It wants ALL mankind to enjoy liberty, not just some. As MLK said, none of us are free as long as some are unfree.
>>


No. The part of the world that is "unfree" is such because the people were weaker than the authority that took over and enforced their philosophies on them. (case and point - Afghans dancing and singing when the Taiblan regime was destroyed in Kabul) But I don't think people generally CHOSE to be ruled by authoritarianism...
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0


<< Sure Christian values and compassion are subjective. But if the two of them (either or) combine to form the basis of the majority of American beliefs, it then becomes the baseline for debate... Do you feel that you have so little freedom living in the US that you're concerned someone else has or threatens to have full "control of your life"? I just don't understand that thinking... >>


I didn't claim I have so little freedom living in the US. I'm merely reacting to your comment that we're being myopic for objecting to the confisication or continued denial of rights. I cannot rest on my laurels just because "I have it so good".


<< Am I missing something here? Did I miss all those authoritarians trampling over my back? I don't seem to recall...
Look. I don't quite disagree with you. I'm asking you for a couple examples of freedoms which clearly you feel have been denied to you for me to better understand your perspective...
>>


If you are part of the mainstream majority, you may not notice or even care that essential rights are denied. But some people aren't able to enjoy the same rights that others take for granted. Are ethnic minorities protected by law enforcement to the same degree as mainstream Americans? Do they receive the same K-12 educational opportunities? Aren't people allowed to demand that religious symbols like the ten commandments be removed from our courthouses, schools and public places? Are homosexuals permitted to do as they please in their private lives? Are women allowed to make their own reproductive choices without harrassment or shame? Aren't law-abiding citizens allowed to purchase firearms without delay or registration tactics used for future confiscation? Aren't people entitled to justice in a court of law instead of a military tribunal? Aren't people allowed to override unconstitutional speech supression tactics of Hollywood and corporations (DMCA)? Aren't people entitled to keep the fruit of their labor without having it confiscated for the whims of Big Government, HillaryCare and whatever awful Great Society program they can cook up? Don't people have the right to work, without having to join a labor union, pay union fees and see that money get funneled off for political spending that may go counter to their beliefs?


<< No. The part of the world that is "unfree" is such because the people were weaker than the authority that took over and enforced their philosophies on them. (case and point - Afghans dancing and singing when the Taiblan regime was destroyed in Kabul) But I don't think people generally CHOSE to be ruled by authoritarianism... >>


They weren't given the outright choice, no, but there is nothing physically stopping them from embracing Western thought. Ultimately, no other man controls us. In many countries, libertarian defiance means death, but that's because the prosecutors are evil and inhumane.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0


<< If you are part of the mainstream majority, you may not notice or even care that essential rights are denied. But some people aren't able to enjoy the same rights that others take for granted. Are ethnic minorities protected by law enforcement to the same degree as mainstream Americans? Do they receive the same K-12 educational opportunities? >>


It's funny... I don't know if you'd call this going full circle, but as a Democrat I believe in the same things... But then, I also believe that to accomplish this we need more taxes and bigger more authoritative government...

I have little faith in the people in general, unlike Libertarians... Overall, I have the greatest faith in the bi-partisan government with its checks and balances, as well as the boundaries declared in the Constitution, not to mistreat the people. And while its not perfect, I don't think that that the solution to America's ills is to minimize the government in favor of privatization. At best, it lends to nepotism, and at worse, it lends to an inability to account for and care for every hardworking American who happens upon unfortunate times... Like I said, its Darwinism. Loosen the reigns so the strong can go unfettered to prey upon the weak... I think that a lot of Libertarians and Conservatives support such philosophies as a smokescreen, so they can do just that - enforce Darwinism...


<< Aren't people allowed to demand that religious symbols like the ten commandments be removed from our courthouses, schools and public places? Are homosexuals permitted to do as they please in their private lives? Are women allowed to make their own reproductive choices without harrassment or shame? Aren't law-abiding citizens allowed to purchase firearms without delay or registration tactics used for future confiscation? Aren't people entitled to justice in a court of law instead of a military tribunal? Aren't people allowed to override unconstitutional speech supression tactics of Hollywood and corporations (DMCA)? Aren't people entitled to keep the fruit of their labor without having it confiscated for the whims of Big Government, HillaryCare and whatever awful Great Society program they can cook up? Don't people have the right to work, without having to join a labor union, pay union fees and see that money get funneled off for political spending that may go counter to their beliefs? >>


A lot of what you bring up is controvertial, and whether people ought to have the right to do those things can be debated for hours... Then again, some of those freedoms you question or demand are just natural obligations that define what it means to live in this country - namely pay taxes...

President Bush wrote off checks in 40 billion dollar increments right after 9-11... For the military, helping to offer relief to victims, etc... That money doesn't come from nowhere... I for one, would have gladly given up my tax refund if I hadn't spent it already, if it means the entire pool goes to those people, and I think most of you would agree... Taxes are a necessary evil, and I'm proud to pay it.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< This I do understand. My reference was to show that the government of these United States is based (as in originated) on the idea of God-given rights. Therefore, these rights are to be recognized as being possessed by anyone with which our government has dealings. Not just to citizens. >>



You do realize that several of our "founding fathers" owned slaves right? You also realize that the constitution was originally crafted by these same people, and worded to deny rights to women and slaves.

Going by the spirit of original intent, it's certainly not clear who actually has certain "God-given" rights.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
It is our constitution that guarantees our rights. By not confusing one for the other, you'll have a much clearer picture of studying what rights are actually granted to whom.

The constitution does not give the american citizen any rights. The constitution is a rule book for what the government can and can not do.

We get our rights from the Bill of Rights.
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0


<< It's funny... I don't know if you'd call this going full circle, but as a Democrat I believe in the same things... But then, I also believe that to accomplish this we need more taxes and bigger more authoritative government... >>


No, it's not going full circle. Libertarianism (and a few other third parties) is not so radical where its party planks are unique. We are accustomed to a two party system, so we might first assume we are either a Democrat or a Republican, though a review of our core ideals may indicate that neither party truly represents us. That's certainly the case for me, even if Libertarianism is not a perfect fit.

So you are saying that you want greater taxation and federal regulation than current levels?


<< I have little faith in the people in general, unlike Libertarians... Overall, I have the greatest faith in the bi-partisan government with its checks and balances, as well as the boundaries declared in the Constitution, not to mistreat the people. And while its not perfect, I don't think that that the solution to America's ills is to minimize the government in favor of privatization. At best, it lends to nepotism, and at worse, it lends to an inability to account for and care for every hardworking American who happens upon unfortunate times... Like I said, its Darwinism. Loosen the reigns so the strong can go unfettered to prey upon the weak... I think that a lot of Libertarians and Conservatives support such philosophies as a smokescreen, so they can do just that - enforce Darwinism... >>


You say you have little faith in people, but what is the federal government? Government cannot exist without people. People are the government, so if you can't trust people, how can you trust the government? By the same token, if libertarians trust people, why don't they trust the government? Ah, so I guess there are differences, then. Democrats mustn't trust people because they are afraid they will make bad choices and be unable to live with the consequences (hence the need for social programs to bail people out from the consequences of their poor choices). Libertarians trust people because they believe each will act rationally to better themselves and consequences are merely a lesson and disincentive against improper (meaning unvalued) behavior.

What I find troubling with the federal government is that with its high concentration of power comes much potential and realized abuse. I was reading John Ashcroft's comments during his "questioning" session yesterday and was quite appalled by his assertions that I, as a civil libertarian, am helping the enemy and am undermining national unity and resolve by questioning his government's tactics. I'm sorry, John, but prefer to be someone of principle instead of rewriting law for the needs of the moment. I've noticed with the Bush Administration that everything comes down to two sides: good vs. evil, us vs. them, etc. I find this objectionable because while I am pleased with the general actions and success in the war in Afghanistan, I refuse to consider everything my government does as acceptable and I certainly don't think it is appropriate to call civil dissenters traitors or roadblockers in the war effort. Where are the checks and balances here?

One of the most basic and yet essential axioms in economics is that demand is infinite while resources are finite. It's impossible to make a utopia out of Earth because we simply can't give everyone everything they desire. Sadly, there is a proverbial pie that must be cut up. The economic Left want to make sure everybody has a piece of at least a certain size. While this sounds compassionate, the problem is that when you cut up the pieces this way, the amount left for the pie bakers (i.e. those who put in labor and capital to create the pie) is inadequate for their efforts. If everyone is guaranteed a certain slice, where is the incentive to bake if Government will provide? One of the reasons why Communism and Marxism fell was for the fact that if people cannot keep their economic outputs and lose the profit incentive, they won't work, or they won't work enough, or they won't care about their work.

I am an advocate of capitalism because it represents the most efficient compromise in the allocation of economic output. I cannot think of a feasible economic system where somebody isn't hurt. I don't think it is possible to make sure everybody does well. I believe that if everybody is granted access to world-class education and we create a culture where work - valuable work - is considered a valiant deed, we might pull ourselves away from the cycle of poverty and wasteful government spending.

(Sidebar: What do I mean by "valuable work"? Work in and of itself is not necessarily valuable. For instance, I don't believe somebody who works behind the counter in a video store has provided the economic inputs necessary to sustain themselves...which is why I am opposed to a federal "living" wage. Simply having a job is not enough. Having a job that is instrumental in producing products and services that the economy values IS valuable work. Why do surgeons get paid what they do? Because their work saves lives. Scanning somebody's rental card and working a register seems quite insignificant by comparison. Of course, I don't want to breed the notion that low-level positions are disposable. Absolutely not. We will always have a need for unskilled/low-skilled labor and lessons learned on the job will give these people the ability to step up and continually improve their skills and earning potential. But when the Left wants to make career jobs out of these positions, they are doing a disservice to everyone.)



<< A lot of what you bring up is controvertial, and whether people ought to have the right to do those things can be debated for hours... Then again, some of those freedoms you question or demand are just natural obligations that define what it means to live in this country - namely pay taxes...

President Bush wrote off checks in 40 billion dollar increments right after 9-11... For the military, helping to offer relief to victims, etc... That money doesn't come from nowhere... I for one, would have gladly given up my tax refund if I hadn't spent it already, if it means the entire pool goes to those people, and I think most of you would agree... Taxes are a necessary evil, and I'm proud to pay it.
>>


Indeed, society considered much of what I bring up as controversial, but I didn't use a dart board to determine these positions (something I think the two big parties must use). The essential question is whether a rational adult should be allowed to make their own choices that go without harming other people. As a libertarian, I feel we all have an natural right to exercise free will minus those actions which would cause lasting/unrepairable harm against others (murder, assault, theft, etc). Anarchy is not part of the equation because libertarians don't believe in the exclusion of government, but rather the restraint of government's control on individuals. And I'm not a true libertarian because there are various political planks I don't agree with: selling off national parks, complete privatization of aviation, the Postal Service, significant reduction in national defense, etc. But that's OK with me because I don't want to be funneled into one sole region of politcal thought.

And no, I don't think it is possible to create a society free from taxation. Being taxed doesn't anger me. There are certain expenses borne by government that could not be realistically borne by private enterprise (justice system, for example). But economic liberals go out of their way to devise new "essential" recurring government expenses. Last year when the government was running large balance sheet surpluses (not true surpluses, just cash flow surpluses), new entitlements like Prescription Drugs For Seniors (tm) saw more than just the light of day...the Left construed it so that if you were opposed to their proposed entitlement, you were an enemy of the elderly. Fiscal responsibility be damned, government coffers are bursting, so let's start spending.

But it is objectionable to spend for spending's sake. I do not believe shovelling money at a problem necessarily solves it. The War on Poverty has proven costly over the last 3 decades, but has the poverty rate dropped more than just a hair? The War on Drugs has not only blown precious tax dollars out the window, but trampled on natural and property rights of individuals caught within the Fed's web. The drug problem hasn't gone away and it isn't going away and no amount of spending will change the result. What about our K-12 educational system? I think it's pretty repulsive that the US doesn't have world-class schools, but government spending on education has exceeded the rate of inflation for years and the problem of underperforming schools doesn't go away.

Money in and of itself cannot solve problems. It's a tool, but you have to have a will before you find a way. I believe one of the failings of modern liberalism is the destruction of personal responsibility. You can train people, give them subsidized housing, food assistance, transportation, child care, etc. but if they don't want to work or if they don't want to improve, then they cannot escape poverty. Government can only do so much and I think it is currently trying to do too much. Why is this a problem? Because a unsuccessful government that does too much is taxing and spending the income of productive citizens. People who find success through their own efforts are not the problem, contrary to what modern liberals seem to think.

Indeed, I have spilt more words than I originally planned, but it just flowed and since I wasn't writing in anger, I didn't stop.

One question, though: are you a student? I just know, from experience, that college students tend to embrace modern liberalism and active government either from idealism or naivete. A few of my friends now tell me that they've given up their old hard-line Democratic positions after they graduated, got a job, married, had kids and bought a house. They didn't realize how expensive big government is and concede that economic conservatism isn't the big bad nasty after all.
 

lesch2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2001
1,159
0
71
depends on your outlook
we are all liberals if you put it in the right light
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0


<< No, it's not going full circle. Libertarianism (and a few other third parties) is not so radical where its party planks are unique. We are accustomed to a two party system, so we might first assume we are either a Democrat or a Republican, though a review of our core ideals may indicate that neither party truly represents us. That's certainly the case for me, even if Libertarianism is not a perfect fit.

So you are saying that you want greater taxation and federal regulation than current levels?
>>


You don't prefer a two party system? I think that while we should ALL agree that neither party can represent our sentiments 100% of the time, or even 75% of the time, any more than two parties will dilute the vote... I firmly believe that if it weren't for Nader's 2% or so of the Florida vote, Gore would be the president now... Of course, I'm sure many people would want to step in and tell me I'm oversimplifying the matter... Do I want greater taxation and government regulation? Let's put it this way... The selfish part of me wants to keep every penny I make. The sneaky, mp3-listening warez-hording side of me wants to relax regulations, neither side of which I'm too proud of...


<< You say you have little faith in people, but what is the federal government? Government cannot exist without people. People are the government, so if you can't trust people, how can you trust the government? By the same token, if libertarians trust people, why don't they trust the government? Ah, so I guess there are differences, then. Democrats mustn't trust people because they are afraid they will make bad choices and be unable to live with the consequences (hence the need for social programs to bail people out from the consequences of their poor choices). Libertarians trust people because they believe each will act rationally to better themselves and consequences are merely a lesson and disincentive against improper (meaning unvalued) behavior. >>


That's why I stress our government's checks and balances... I don't trust the government either. I don't always trust Democrats and I sure as heck don't trust the Republicans. I trust the SYSTEM. I believe the system is as close to a perfect system as we're going to get, and as long as we have the vote, I don't think it is going to fail us.


<< What I find troubling with the federal government is that with its high concentration of power comes much potential and realized abuse. I was reading John Ashcroft's comments during his "questioning" session yesterday and was quite appalled by his assertions that I, as a civil libertarian, am helping the enemy and am undermining national unity and resolve by questioning his government's tactics. I'm sorry, John, but prefer to be someone of principle instead of rewriting law for the needs of the moment. I've noticed with the Bush Administration that everything comes down to two sides: good vs. evil, us vs. them, etc. I find this objectionable because while I am pleased with the general actions and success in the war in Afghanistan, I refuse to consider everything my government does as acceptable and I certainly don't think it is appropriate to call civil dissenters traitors or roadblockers in the war effort. Where are the checks and balances here? >>


Agreed. However, I'd be surprised if those convictions of his were shared among the majority of the decision-makers in Washington... And I see where he's coming from - he's "dumbing down" the summary of his defense to the American people, so that for those who are unclear on the concept, we do have good reason to go over there and open up some whooparse... I believe we're in fact, in the majority when we consider ourselves intelligent enough to see beyond us being strictly "good" and the Taliban/Al Qeada being strictly "evil" but you're not going to hear Ashcroft or Bush or Rumsfeld qualify or defend or moderate any accusation they make, especially in a 15 minute interview or a 5 minute speech. It's annoying to those of us who know better, but its impractical to expect the whole story from the horse's mouth. So I guess call it what you will, propaganda even, but its meant to spur support from Americans...


<< One of the most basic and yet essential axioms in economics is that demand is infinite while resources are finite. It's impossible to make a utopia out of Earth because we simply can't give everyone everything they desire. Sadly, there is a proverbial pie that must be cut up. The economic Left want to make sure everybody has a piece of at least a certain size. While this sounds compassionate, the problem is that when you cut up the pieces this way, the amount left for the pie bakers (i.e. those who put in labor and capital to create the pie) is inadequate for their efforts. If everyone is guaranteed a certain slice, where is the incentive to bake if Government will provide? One of the reasons why Communism and Marxism fell was for the fact that if people cannot keep their economic outputs and lose the profit incentive, they won't work, or they won't work enough, or they won't care about their work. >>


Very true. And VERY well put. I just believe there is a midpoint, someplace "lefter" than where we're at, which will help more people who need and deserve help, (ie victims of 9/11) yet still free enough to encourage innovation.


<< Money in and of itself cannot solve problems. It's a tool, but you have to have a will before you find a way. I believe one of the failings of modern liberalism is the destruction of personal responsibility. You can train people, give them subsidized housing, food assistance, transportation, child care, etc. but if they don't want to work or if they don't want to improve, then they cannot escape poverty. Government can only do so much and I think it is currently trying to do too much. Why is this a problem? Because a unsuccessful government that does too much is taxing and spending the income of productive citizens. People who find success through their own efforts are not the problem, contrary to what modern liberals seem to think. >>


Agreed again. In fact I've always adopted the gist of what you said. It makes me think. I always figured I was a liberal because I always disagreed with just about everything TexMaster posts... :) If all Libertarians were like you, and don't vote stricting to party lines, I would seriously consider it...


<< One question, though: are you a student? I just know, from experience, that college students tend to embrace modern liberalism and active government either from idealism or naivete. A few of my friends now tell me that they've given up their old hard-line Democratic positions after they graduated, got a job, married, had kids and bought a house. They didn't realize how expensive big government is and concede that economic conservatism isn't the big bad nasty after all. >>


I'm 24, and just out of college two years ago. I think one guy had for his sig a quote from Winston Churchill, something like, if you're under 30 and not a liberal, you have no heart, but if you're over 30 and not a conservative, you have no brain... I'd say I'm kind of idealistic, but in a way such that if I ever get disillusioned, the sense of compassion would still be so deeply entrenched in my heart. Conservatives seem so selfish here. They're prideful and arrogant, just what I see in Bush, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld, that scares me - they think the US is omnipotent, and what we say goes, and that we don't need anyone ele, but they all need us. One day, it going to bite us in the butt, -hard. They turn down Kyoto because they don't want to see China and India get free rides out of pollution control. They also use the exact same arguments you do, but how can you accuse a NATION of not trying and punish them for it?!?!
In short, I acknowledge the bureaucracy and inefficiency of big government. I just think its the lesser of two evils... Maybe I'll change my mind when I hit 30, but I don't see it happening yet.
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0
I'm not quite a dedicated libertarian nor do I expect myself to ever subscribe 100% to the party's philosophies. In fact, I voted for Bush last year, mainly because I knew Gore had a tremendous chance of winning the election and I didn't want to become a "Nader voter". (Wouldn't have mattered anyway because Gore won PA by a decent margin.) I could not and cannot stand Clinton or Gore and I wanted that administration cleared out of the White House even though I knew Bush had plenty of nasties attached to him. I wanted the "surplus" used for tax cuts instead of some major new entitlements, which certainly would have seen the light of day if Gore were President. I got my tax cuts, even if they are stingy, and now have to put up with Bush the religious conservative. :frown:

I don't care for the way the Libertarian party is run or spreads their message. They come across as too radical, though they would chide me if I told them to water it down, them saying that any backsliding of their position would be a hypocritical compromise against liberty. It is a very idealistic party, a very romantic association with individualism, a sort of progressive, modern, joyously sanguine set of ideals that I find enticing and hopeful that it could work. But realistically, I want more libertarian leanings in our government and our justice system. I want the Byrds, the Kennedys, the Gephardts, the Clintons and all of the old school, pork barrel, government lovin' has-beens to move along into retirement. I'd also like to see Trent Lott, a committed economic conservative, put out to pasture because he is very intolerant towards social progressiveness and individual choice. Helms and Thurmond and the like should head for the door as well.

Texmaster's posts don't exactly go over well with me either. Talk about bullheaded... And yes, Winston Churchill did make that very memorable quote, even if it is a bit quaint.