I'd rather not bring that up in this context for the same reason I won't say what agency this guy was from. Embarrassment and shame all around at how stupid this was. I think they are re-evaluating the criteria for these course right now.
That should not be a problem for properly trained people. The group I train with usually has no problem when someone falls (and that happens a lot, especially going down stairs, on ladders etc. Properly trained people will fall indexing, and pointing the weapon in a safe direction. We also use simunitions, paintball guns, and dry runs where you go through the whole routine dry and literally say "bang bang" whenever you would have fired. Thier are also multiple saftey officers watching everything. Stuff like this makes all that training irrelevant. it is really really hard to get someone who has learned bad habits over many years to change. Muscle memory just takes effect.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well looks like justint is as courageous in life as he is in thought on the forum. Still didn't respond to my retribution comment though.
By the way, very glad you weren't shot.
What retribution comment??
isn't Indexing something to do with the ammunition? the ammo index is a part of the gun no?
but anyways... that's scary man.. being shot has got to suck! :Q
but anyways... that's scary man.. being shot has got to suck! :Q
Originally posted by: Yield
isn't Indexing something to do with the ammunition? the ammo index is a part of the gun no?
but anyways... that's scary man.. being shot has got to suck! :Q
Indexing is keeping your index finger out of the trigger guard and away from the trigger when using the weapon until you actually shoot. This prevents you from flinching and pulling the trigger and killing someone who doesn't need to be killed. Refer to the above linked picture. I actually like to keep my finger a little higher than that on an MP-5.
That's pretty funny. It actually wasn't scary. At the very moment it happened we all just kind of stood thier for a second saying DUHH, while the range officer was screaming cease fire. Afterwards, I went home fell asleep at around 1400 and didn't wake up until 0530 this morning. Well I did wake up, but only to surf the net and then fall back asleep. I just couldn't bring myself to do anything else. Just makes you think a lot.
Someone replied that indexing was placing your finger on the trigger guard away from the trigger... Actullay it should go higher, above the trigger guard alongside the receiver, or frame, depending on weapon type. If you should slip or something else that may cause an involuntary muscle reponse, it would be possible for your finger to come off the trigger guard, causing a negligent discharge...
Glad you are ok Justint...
I have been around enough to see that the firearms training in different agencys covers from one end of the spectrum to the other, and operators who do not take the training seriously enough... One would be wise to never take for granted the level or ability of the person next to you until they have proven themselves capable, especially when your comprised of different agencies who may have different levels of training or standards..... Good luck and check six...
Dave
Glad you are ok Justint...
I have been around enough to see that the firearms training in different agencys covers from one end of the spectrum to the other, and operators who do not take the training seriously enough... One would be wise to never take for granted the level or ability of the person next to you until they have proven themselves capable, especially when your comprised of different agencies who may have different levels of training or standards..... Good luck and check six...
Dave
Dave is right about proper indexing as I said previously I like to keep mine up higher than in the Elian Gonzales picture when using an MP-5. This was the first time working with these guys, and no offense to anyone I find that the older guys are the sloppiest/have the most old fashioned training. That and the longer you do something the more cavalier, likely to make a mistake you get. Never lose caution or respect for how dangerous things can be.
Wow, glad you're ok...
The only situation I have to compare with that (and it isn't the same thing) is when I was out at the shooting range, I went out to swap out targets, I told the guy next to me that I was going (just the two of us out there), he said ok (or I thought he did anyway).
I walked out to the target and had a bullet pass by me, he had fired off another round. Since he was using his scope, I guess he didn't see me. It wasn't "right by" by head, but dammit it, that doesn't matter. I was out in the line of fire. I dropped to the ground, afraid I was going to get shot, then I screamed at him to stop shooting.
He was really sorry, appoligized over and over. I know he didn't mean it, but I went home, that was enough shooting for me that day.
Hopper
The only situation I have to compare with that (and it isn't the same thing) is when I was out at the shooting range, I went out to swap out targets, I told the guy next to me that I was going (just the two of us out there), he said ok (or I thought he did anyway).
I walked out to the target and had a bullet pass by me, he had fired off another round. Since he was using his scope, I guess he didn't see me. It wasn't "right by" by head, but dammit it, that doesn't matter. I was out in the line of fire. I dropped to the ground, afraid I was going to get shot, then I screamed at him to stop shooting.
He was really sorry, appoligized over and over. I know he didn't mean it, but I went home, that was enough shooting for me that day.
Hopper
Glad to hear you came out OK. If anything this should enforce good safety training and the need for it to everybody in the class.
Side note... I miss the MP5, what a great marble of German engineering!
Side note... I miss the MP5, what a great marble of German engineering!
Actually, I've trained with live fire rounds in close quarters and it's no fun. The best cure I found for this was when we fired what were known as spitbombs. AKA little high velocity paint balls. They probubly got another more proper name, but I call them spitballs cause that's what they look like to me. Little colored spitballs. The worst you can get from them at close range is a small cut and one heck of a bruise. Much safer close quarters training and you can still see exactly where your shots landed.
In case anyone is curious, yes I was in the army. IF you're curious of my MOS, I'll let you figure that out.
In case anyone is curious, yes I was in the army. IF you're curious of my MOS, I'll let you figure that out.
HK and Sig, for when you absolutely, positively need the best. Those Germans know how to make them.
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
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During some multinational training that my father was doing while in the army and stationed in Berlin one man suddenly had his helmet fall off. He picks it up and continues the exercise. At the end they looked at his helmet. It became obvious a bullet had come in the bottom of the helmet, bounced around, just barely missing this guy's head, then exited out the bottom. You could see the gouges around the inside where a bullet had shot up inside then bounced around tearing out the straps (that's why it fell off) and then exited the way it came in, right past this guy's head.
Strangely enough my father thinks it was one of the French infantry in the exercise being careless.
Strangely enough my father thinks it was one of the French infantry in the exercise being careless.
Stupid french. :|
I'll never, ever, ever again train with them after the experiences I've had with them. I'm surprised they haven't killed off all their own people from friendly fire.
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