All thos web developers out there...read in!

[CaptainBill]

Hi, I'm 18 and getting ready to go to college next fall and I think I have centered my career focus around web development. Is a standard computer science degree the best route? Or maybe a communications degree? What's the difference? Also what's the money like in this field? Are there many opportunities to work at home or telecommute? Thanks for everyone's help.

Oh and if anyone would care to critique a site I'm working on right now its here I also designed the forum on there. It was a base subSilver from PHPBB and I modded it a little. Thanks everyone.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Emphasis on web programming or web design?

design = graphic arts background, also leads to print work (catalogs, magazines, ads).

programming = many levels, from client side javascript menus, to dynamic pages (ASP / PHP), to "real" programming of server-side code (think of all the database stuff that happens behind the scenes to make eBay work).

My brother has been a graphic artist since the '80s and web designer since the mid-'90s (www.neotrope.com). Before webwork he did everything from catalog layouts to designing the "look" of magazines. He has no formal CS background and has just taught himself a little perl and javascript to be able to modify other people's code.

I'm a Windows software developer (with zero graphics art background) who dabbles in web programming (see www.microcase.com/sociology/online/DEFAULT.asp or the "Maps/Reports" section of www.theArda.com). I can write Perl, ASP, C/C++ and VB code but wouldn't have luck trying to create some artistic and original new look for a website.

A major website like Amazon needs both kinds of people, but most little sites would be better off with the graphic artist type who can get a few off-the-shelf components.

Demand (and pay) has gone way down from the dot-com boom, but there's still work for talented people.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

And if I may add to what Dave said, by the look of your site you ARE talented!!! I like it a lot. Really clean, nice and coherent set of colors, the fonts are good too. For an 18 year-old, it's *very* professional. (maybe except the "Untitled document" part )

You should indeed find out what interests you most, between the "scientific" part of it and the "artistic" side. If you can't make up your mind and you like both, my personal advice is to go the computer science (or computer engineering) way. You seem to already have the artistic instinct, so computer science will make sure you have some advanced programming skills (as the web is very rapidly changing to an all-dynamic place. About all my clients now want dynamic content). Plus, if web design eventually doesn't work for you, I guess it's easier to find a job as a programmer than a graphics designer (although it's just a guess).

If you're a little ambitious, why not do both? I'm sure you could find a way to do computer science plus some artistic minor? or maybe the other way around? a graphics design degree with some side classes of ASP/PHP/SQL/whatever ?
On the other hand, there are WAY more girls in design than CompSci...

 

[CaptainBill]

Thanks, both of you. I'm not sure whether I would be more apt to go into the web design or web programming. I guess I am interested more in the design end, but I'm trying to start learning some php, and asp.

Dave, when you say the demand has gone done, how extreme is this drop in availability? I wouldn't want to spend 5 or 10 years after college waiting for a job to open up. Then again if I have a computer science major, I could, if I had to , go into another field temporarily.

Thanks again both of you and thanks for the comments on the site. The "Untitled Document" is the dumb thing I seem to do the most. I never remember to name all my pages

 

[DaveSimmons]

Hard to say exactly how much it's down, but right now there is a glut of people who got into web design during the dot-com boom while companies were frantically throwing money towards anyone who could type "<b> Hello World </b>". In a couple of years most of these people will have moved on to something else. And there are always jobs for the people who really know their stuff beyond just working through "teach yourself web design in 21 hours"

I'd say go for at least a minor in computer science or a certificate program in programming, and try to also get at least some classes in graphic arts / design. If you're in / planning a 4-year degree you could start out doing both then try to find out which side you enjoy enough to major in.

 

[kt]

DaveSimmons is right about companies were hiring a lot of "teach yourself web design in 21 hours" people. Sadly enough, not all of them have been weeded out. I just got contract job to come in and help this company develop a web application for their intranet site. I was amazed how their existing web developers (developers, NOT designers) have kept their job for so long. Apparently, I was contracted because they need the man power.. but it felt otherwise because I've been doing 95% of the coding so far and I have to explain every little things to them like using stored procedures. I almost dropped my jaw when they asked me what stored procedure was. However, I am not going to rat them out or anything.. it's not in my nature and I am getting paid handsomely on this contract (which I am sure was their suggestion).

 

[rh71]

Web applications are the next biggest thing. They already have been. You may have heard the latest "web services" term being thrown around, so that would be a nice hint for all the up-and-coming-ers.

Without repeating what has already been said, if you have a design background to an extent (or raw talent), then you should DEFINITELY concentrate on the programming aspect of it. Learn dynamic web languages like Cold Fusion / JSP and also learn Java. If you feel ASP.NET / C# is worthwhile, go for that instead (not my choice, personally). With a combination of programming and design, and some real-world experience, you will not be out of a job. The toughest part is getting "in" to acquire the experience first.

The demand for this stuff will never go away, but the amount of people out of work in the same field are making it that much harder for you to get in... unfortunately. Good luck with your job search, but by then, you will have known to get as much job experience while in school as necessary. Keyword: internships. Even non-paying ones. Hell, I have a COM degree. My employer was big on experience coupled with ANY 4-year degree. I landed my dream job 3 months out of college. Pay your dues while in school, not after you graduate.

 

[CaptainBill]

RH71, what do you do? Thanks everyone. I was hoping to get a job that starts out higher than $36,000 (that's what teachers start out here and they get three months a year off...I would just teach to get going if I can't get a web development job over that, just need the certificate). And a job, that someday, would allow me to work from home or telecommute. Are there any other web related jobs out there that are like this? Maybe database admin or developer? Thanks for everyone's help so far.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Why don't you grab your local universities' "catalog" (not sure how they call it in english :S) and read the course descriptions for every program you may be interested in? that'll put you on track as to what you want to do!

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: CaptainBill
RH71, what do you do? Thanks everyone. I was hoping to get a job that starts out higher than $36,000 (that's what teachers start out here and they get three months a year off...I would just teach to get going if I can't get a web development job over that, just need the certificate). And a job, that someday, would allow me to work from home or telecommute. Are there any other web related jobs out there that are like this? Maybe database admin or developer? Thanks for everyone's help so far.

What you described is my job exactly. I will be working from home pretty soon because my new manager is based 3 hours away and our presence in the office does not matter as long as work gets done. I'm a web developer... solution web applications that tie in with new/existing databases. Keep in mind this know-how came on-the-job. No amount of education can get you ready for this stuff unless you do it for real... that's where internships come into play. The more you've done (and can admit on your resume), the better the employers trust your judgment/skills, even if you've never done exactly what they need. From school, you'll need an understanding of databases which is pretty standard in any MIS class. If you choose computer programming as your major, I fear that the design-oriented mind you have will not be able to last through 4 years of coding. Do MIS instead, if your school offers it. There will be programming classes thrown in there anyway. The competition is fierce for IT jobs from this major, but you will be very well-rounded if you can learn the real stuff on your own. Don't waste your time with any "jobs" not related... I don't care how much you make.

About compensation... salary here in NY is always high, so it depends on where you will be based. If you can find a full time job, it WILL be at least the $36k you are looking for. Though, people who have been unemployed may demand lower salaries so competition may drive employers to offer less. It's a decision for you between taking any job you can vs. earning your worth. And your worth commensurates with your skills+experience above all.

 

[Zucarita9000]

Well, I've been in web design for about 5 years now, and I have to say that going with graphics design and/or communication degree really helps.
Web design involves so many different aspects that and you can not control them all. I've started my own company last year (I'm 21 by the way.). I started myself and we're 6 in total right now, 2 designers, 3 programmes and 1 person in charge of public relations.
First, decide what you want to do. And as for the money, well, it all depends on how good you are and what kind of customers you aim to. Small-size companies are the best to start out with, moving to Mid-size as you gain experience.

 

[everman]

Personally I think it's hard to find good designers who know not only how a site should look and work, but what the code looks like (to some degree), and how the different components work to create the site. You seem to be talented in the graphics department, that's great. Now having some programming knowledge will also help because you will know what can be done on that end.

 

[damiano]

my only advice learn java REALLY well

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: damiano
my only advice learn java REALLY well

I made this mistake while in college. Mistake meaning I didn't learn Java. My MIS minor only required 1 programming course - and it was C++ (Java wasn't the available choice in '98 - WTF ?!).

I thought it wasn't a big deal which programming language I learned anyway... since I won't be computer programming... just web developing. Well 3 years later, I find that Java is a definite player in the web dev realm (JSP / Websphere / some applets) and now I'm struggling to grasp all the concepts at once.

What a waste of time that C++ class was. I agree, learn Java, at least to some extent.

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: CaptainBill
RH71, what do you do? Thanks everyone. I was hoping to get a job that starts out higher than $36,000 (that's what teachers start out here and they get three months a year off...I would just teach to get going if I can't get a web development job over that, just need the certificate). And a job, that someday, would allow me to work from home or telecommute. Are there any other web related jobs out there that are like this? Maybe database admin or developer? Thanks for everyone's help so far.

What you described is my job exactly. I will be working from home pretty soon because my new manager is based 3 hours away and our presence in the office does not matter as long as work gets done. I'm a web developer... solution web applications that tie in with new/existing databases. Keep in mind this know-how came on-the-job. No amount of education can get you ready for this stuff unless you do it for real... that's where internships come into play. The more you've done (and can admit on your resume), the better the employers trust your judgment/skills, even if you've never done exactly what they need. From school, you'll need an understanding of databases which is pretty standard in any MIS class. If you choose computer programming as your major, I fear that the design-oriented mind you have will not be able to last through 4 years of coding. Do MIS instead, if your school offers it. There will be programming classes thrown in there anyway. The competition is fierce for IT jobs from this major, but you will be very well-rounded if you can learn the real stuff on your own. Don't waste your time with any "jobs" not related... I don't care how much you make.

About compensation... salary here in NY is always high, so it depends on where you will be based. If you can find a full time job, it WILL be at least the $36k you are looking for. Though, people who have been unemployed may demand lower salaries so competition may drive employers to offer less. It's a decision for you between taking any job you can vs. earning your worth. And your worth commensurates with your skills+experience above all.

amen

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Java? aren't ASP/PHP and databases more important?

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
Java? aren't ASP/PHP and databases more important?

They are equally as important. But it doesn't take long to master those. I picked up ColdFusion in 3 months (more people should). Anyway, Java is more important in the long run than any dynamic web language.

Check out the ads in the paper. From the other day, a Websphere guy with 3 years Java experience earns $110k/yr to start. These guys are still considered web developers/programmers. Find an ASP guy that cracks $70k/yr. ASPers and PHPers are a dime a dozen these days. 14-year olds can learn JSP and CF if they know how to use tags. Gotta get ahead of the competition. Absorb EVERYTHING.

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
Java? aren't ASP/PHP and databases more important?

They are equally as important. But it doesn't take long to master those. I picked up ColdFusion in 3 months (more people should). Anyway, Java is more important in the long run than any dynamic web language.

Check out the ads in the paper. From the other day, a Websphere guy with 3 years Java experience earns $110k/yr to start. These guys are still considered web developers/programmers. Find an ASP guy that cracks $70k/yr. ASPers and PHPers are a dime a dozen these days. 14-year olds can learn JSP and CF if they know how to use tags. Gotta get ahead of the competition. Absorb EVERYTHING.

amen again

 

[CaptainBill]

110K?? Geez...where is this at? What is a common starting salary for a strong web developer/ programmer and not really in a huge city. Also, I want to learn PHP, ColdFusion (or is that like PHP?), ASP maybe, and I guess definatly Java. Any good places to start? I am stronger on the design end.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

thanks for the info rh71. So what are the uses for Java in web design? all I ever noticed of Java are the applets, which I find most of the time clumsy and slow. There must be some other use?

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
thanks for the info rh71. So what are the uses for Java in web design? all I ever noticed of Java are the applets, which I find most of the time clumsy and slow. There must be some other use?

java is not a web design tool but a web development tool...
Java is an object oriented programming language that you use to create dynamic web pages...

get the point?

 

[ElDonAntonio]

not really, I know what Java is, I'm a pretty good C++ programmer myself, but I don't see how you could use Java for any web development. Server side applications? you could do that in C++ and they'd probably run faster, no? And if you're careful your code can be cross-platform compatible.
Do you have any real examples of Java uses?

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
not really, I know what Java is, I'm a pretty good C++ programmer myself, but I don't see how you could use Java for any web development. Server side applications? you could do that in C++ and they'd probably run faster, no? And if you're careful your code can be cross-platform compatible.
Do you have any real examples of Java uses?

Of course, create XML Servers and Parsers.
al types of Database applications.
Create Remote applications using swing for instance(to create a GUI).
EJB's to create user sessions or e-commerce enabling with efficient database usage and caching.
Personnally, I even write all my hack scripts (which are really more network security testing scripts at this point) in java
And I can give you two million more examples.

seing the description of what you know about Java, it doesn't look like you really know what Java is, and what you can do with it.

We agree about the fact that C++ would be faster than java, but the thing is that when it comes to web development, Java has much more libraries that already exist to do millions of thing (sessions, mail, XML tools etc..) and even if C++ is faster, the whole J2EE thing makes that java is more adapted to web development than C++ really is.

what do you think ???

 

[ElDonAntonio]

it makes sense, and I don't really think anything, between you and me, you're the expert on the field

That's interesting, I didn't think Java played such an important role. I've seen some Java code and it doesn't look too different from C++ (both on syntax and structure, both being object-oriented), but my only user-experience with it has been Together (a horrid piece of software) and the applets, but I'll definately look-up what you just enumerated!

What about you CaptainBill? made any decision?

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
it makes sense, and I don't really think anything, between you and me, you're the expert on the field

That's interesting, I didn't think Java played such an important role. I've seen some Java code and it doesn't look too different from C++ (both on syntax and structure, both being object-oriented), but my only user-experience with it has been Together (a horrid piece of software) and the applets, but I'll definately look-up what you just enumerated!

What about you CaptainBill? made any decision?

cool

let me know if you need any advice or help of any kind
ps: Bill....learn JAVA :Q