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All oversees ballots are counted: final unconfirmed numbers

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chess9,

I will now need to kill myself. I don't believe the Miami Herald either.

ride525,

The after-the-fact polling data disagrees with your assessment. All indicate that the leak cost Bush between 5% and 7% of the popular vote and, that in this election, as high as 10% of the electorate either finalized or changed their decision the day of the election.

In the past, your assumption that minds were made up would be accurate. That did not happen this time.

Russ, NCNE
 


<< She is responsible for blocking the hand counting and slowing it so she could call the election for Bush. >>


TripleShot...

I'm not ready to make the decision as to whether Harris was working for Bush, or what she thought was in the interest of the people of Florida. I hope that you are not making that decision either. Unless of course you are a close personal friend or relative. She seems to be the type of person to me that takes her job very seriously. She probably went through quite a bit of grief as a female polititian to get to her position.

I think the same argument can be made of democrats. Keep in mind this is not my opinion, only an idea...

The democrats could have been slowing the hand counts on purpose, knowing that all absentee ballots would be counted by this weekend, and then they would know exactly what odds they had to &quot;overcome&quot; so to speak.

I stick to my reasoning that a hand recount is flawed in its nature. People make mistakes.... especially ones that work 15 hour days.
<edit> As a matter of a fact, that in itself would make a good argument for disallowing the hand recount. Both sides have admitted to being &quot;tired and overworked.&quot;</edit>

 
I have a couple of comments about Kathleen Harris:

1. She tried to halt the hand recounts long before the deadline. Then, she ACCEPTED Volusia manual recount on Tuesday November 14. Seems to be a great lack of consistency here.

2. I think since she was Bush's state campaign co-chair chair, she should have recused herself. Staying, she just left herself so open to anything that went against the Democrats. Or, she could have let Bob Crawford, the recent addition to the State Canvassing Board when Jeb Bush stepped down, speak out more. He was a Democrat, but seemed to agree with her decisions.
 
Russ:

No need to kill yourself, but voting Democratic WOULD suffice. 😛

Anyway, CNN is saying almost no change in PBC and only about 59 plus votes for Gore in Broward with about 1/3 of the county done. Miami-Dade doesn't look very fertile.

I'm now predicting Bush will win, and I have a better track record at predicting elections than the major networks. 😛

 


<< I'm now predicting Bush will win, and I have a better track record at predicting elections than the major networks. >>



It was getting a bit tense in here.... but I'm in a better mood now that a reliable source has predicted the outcome. 😀

 
Harris is a party hack, but she will get a big bonus from the Republicans when this is over.

Ambassador to Guatamala would be nice.

Where do the Republicans get all these women who are graduates of the Tammy Fae Baker School of Cosmetic Design? God, that red lipstick makes her look like an L.A. hooker.
 


<< The after-the-fact polling data disagrees with your assessment. All indicate that the leak cost Bush between 5% and 7% of the popular vote and, that in this election, as high as 10% of the electorate either finalized or changed their decision the day of the election. >>



I thought I had read the opposite. Is my memory going in old age? 🙂

Checking for related stories... (on gore4prez.com) 😉
 
Russ:

How many times do you want me to say it? I am not asking about your opinion of Gore's qualifications (we around here have heard that repeated ad nausem for months). Do you like GW Bush and think he is qualified, and why?

What about this do you not understand? If you feel it is none of my business, say so, but stop answeering by talking about Gore.
 
TSDible

The news issued a reading of the brief and the assertion she is culpable in slowing the process. I'm sure it is posted somewhwere on the web.

She probably went through quite a bit of grief as a female polititian to get to her position.

She went with Jeb bush to campaign for GW in New Hampshire while being an employee of the state of Florida. She was on the campaign committee to elect G.W.. She is profoundly biased and has publically anounced her desire for a postion in the Bush cabinet,or an ambassadorship if he is elected. It is in her self interest to get hinm elected. That is why she should have recused herself. Too late now. By the way,she used florida taxpayer money for trips to uruba and barbadosand other places ,more than Jeb or any official in Florida state government. She doesn't look clean to me. Burt what he heck,she's in Florida,I'm here. We have the friggin 2002 olympics debacle here too. What a mess!

People make mistakes.... especially ones that work 15 hour days.

I'm looking for some kind of substantiation of that remark. I thought they worked in shifts.

I would caution all who tread these political forums not to buy into the spin and inuendo we are seeing on the tube.Kathern Hughes has really rathceted up the accusations of fraud and foul play in this. Don't buy it. There are police in every counting location. Any evidence of fraud would have been brought to the police on the spot.Voting fraud is a felony. You haven't heard of anyone beiong arrested, have you?

Everyone is frustrated. I vote throw Florida out and go with 49 states if they can't get their stuff together.Easy for me to say,I'm not living there and as Red Dawn said,Our votes are in,counted and races have been called.😉
 
Tripleshot

I know that CNN is not the almighty of information.... after all, some say they could be partially to blame for some of the problems in FL. But this is from their site.

&quot;We have elderly counters overworked and burned out,&quot; he said. &quot;Counters are working from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. each day, sometimes even later. Counters, many of whom are elderly, are exhausted. Some of them are angry, and clearly they are fatigued. The room is poorly lit.&quot;

It does not state whether they are working in shifts, they may very well be.

And about Harris' grief in arriving at her position...

I'm not just talking about her current position. There is a lot of education, work and discrimination to get to that point.

All I'm saying is that many (not all) polititians work very hard to obtain their positions. I'm not ready to make a judgement on her based on what did you call it? Oh yes...


<< I would caution all who tread these political forums not to buy into the spin and inuendo we are seeing on the tube. >>

 
I probably shouldn't let this one just go by either... 🙂


<< Everyone is frustrated. I vote throw Florida out and go with 49 states if they can't get their stuff together.Easy for me to say,I'm not living there and as Red Dawn said,Our votes are in,counted and races have been called. >>

Can you imagine what would happen when the votes of about 6 million voters were simply thrown out? We already have people crying about only thousands of votes that have been thrown out up to this point in FL alone.

On another note... perhaps that is just what the Gore campain wants... after all... without florida... Gore wins.
 
Oh Hell! lets just have a revote of the whole country. I bet a bunch of the 51% who didn't bother to vote might come out finally, and then we can see the true will of the people.


Or give the country back to the Brits. They ain't bellyaching like us crybabies!🙁
 
Tripleshot - you must not pay enough attention to British politics. They bellyache just as much. Watch a parliamentary session on CSPAN if you want to see it in action.

Michael

ps - the same goes for Canada (where they bellyache over language as much as they do politics)
 
Some good news for Russ.....from CNN at about 8pm PST....

? Judge Charles Burton, chairman of the Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, said the numbers of votes for Gore or Bush have not changed significantly in its recount. About 20 percent of Palm Beach County's ballots have been recounted.

? In Broward County, with about 25 percent of votes recounted, Gore has gained 45 votes. Counting in Broward is expected to be finished by Monday at 5 p.m. EST.
 
Without statistics on what areas of the counties have been recounted and if the &quot;no vote&quot; ballots have been counted or are still to come, I will not belive that the votes have not changed significantly.

I do find it telling that PBC said it had to recount the whole county based on ahighly skewed sample, but 20% hand recount shows no real change. Maybe Harris was right, there is no reason to recount.

The news about the slight change in voters makes some sense. That's why Miami-Dade is now recounting and why they're mining their ballots for the ones that will make the most difference. The Democrats now have their target, and they attacked the absentee ballots as hard as tehy could to make their target as easy as possible.

Plus, the challenge to throw out the regular absentee ballots in a heavily Bush county could win the thing for Gore if it alone is agreed to by the court.

Michael
 
Let's throw some more fuel on the fire, from a CNN article:

&quot;In Palm Beach County, Republicans demanded a recount slowdown after punchcard ballots were found with chads ? tiny pieces of paper ? reaffixed with tape. [emphasis added] Workers released no updated figures Saturday, with 114 of 531 precincts counted.&quot;

Excuse me? If that's true, then there's blatant tampering, and ALL OF THEM SHOULD BE THROWN OUT. I have a feeling that with the legal precedents in Florida, that's what would happen, too. This is only one report, but that's the most obvious example of fraud I've heard and fairly incontrovertible if it bears out. Pretty incredible, if you ask me, given the intense scrutiny of this recount process.

They are the ones that contain uncounted but valid votes.

The key in that sentence is &quot;valid&quot;. Valid if punched for Gore, it seems?

He left Harris there to do the work. Thats as good as him doing it!

Reports I read last week about Harris stated that her ties with Jeb Bush are not that close. Also, the Florida Republican Party is rather embarrassed with her after her run for the Senate (I think it was) in what was a VERY vitriolic campaign on her part, much more so than is usually run down there. The general tone of the article is that she's somewhat of a renegade and not a party automaton. That plays into the idea that she's making her decisions not at the behest of the GOP but rather to curry their favor.

I was referring to the tone of your words.

fragarific: How do you get tone from words on a web board? 🙂 One of the worst aspects of this medium is that people fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. I've seen it for years on Usenet though I rarely venture there anymore with all the spam. :|
 
One more thing about Harris. If her actions are indeed independent of the GOP, they may NOT give her favors as a result because she would be a terrible liability for the credibility of the party after all this is over (assuming GWB wins). I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.
 
Russ,

I know other members have asked you this, but why do you beleive GW Bush is more competent than Al Gore, Pat Buchanan, or Ralph Nader?

If you do not answer we can only assume that you voted Bush because Bush is Republican.
 
Let us assume that Russ did only vote for Bush because Bush was the Republican Presidential candidate. In what way would that be a problem?

I think that it is a &quot;can't win&quot; type of question for Russ. If he lists attributes he likes, those will be attacked.

I will add that I once voted for a candidate in a local election that I thought was a buffoon. I thought long and hard about it and then decided that it would be best to vote for the party I was supporting's candidate.

I also voted 100% along party lines in provincial elections because to do otherwise was voting for separatists and I was in a battle for my country's future.

Michael
 
It's even worse then just taping chads back on.
Distortion in Hand Counts
>>
Montana Gov. Marc Racicot, who joined Hughes at the press conference in Austin, Texas, said the process of counting ballots by hand was &quot;selective, subjective and unfair,&quot; and that &quot;the accuracy of those counts could not be guaranteed.&quot;

Among the evidence cited, Racicot said they had eyewitness reports that chads were being taped back on to Bush ballots; that Bush ballots were being found in Gore piles and not being removed once discovered; that poll workers have been using ballots as fans; that post-it notes were being stuck to ballots; and that many of the workers were exhausted and overworked senior citizens.

&quot;In some counties, the results were so flawed a second manual recount had to be done,&quot; Racicot said. He said in Broward County, different standards for evaluating the ballots were being used at different tables, that ballots were being handled and passed between many workers, and that the chairs and floors of the counting headquarters were covered with chads.

Passions rose later in the day when Republicans accused officials in Miami-Dade County of planning to take some ballots that can't be counted by machine, determine the voter's intent, then mark new ballots accordingly ? pink-colored for identification ? that the machines would accept.
<<





 
Look, I don't know what these repeated questions to Russ have to do with anything, but, I think I can answer for him. He supports Bush for the same reason those asking the questions supported someone else. ALL of the presidential candidates, regardless of their strengths or weaknesses, are still a figurehead for a political ideology. If your ideology is Democratic you support that party by voting for the spokesman thats chosen to represent the party's ideology, and the same goes for all the other candidates and their parties.

If the position sought in a public election cannot be considered highly partisan, dog catcher for instance, then making a decision based on personality rather than ideology would be an appropriate option. The President Of The United States has been either Republican or Democrat throughout most of this country's history and ideologically has partisanly represented and promoted the political philosophy of his party. In this election both major parties put forward representatives that were less than stellar in the charisma department but the bottom line is that regardless of their shortcomings there they still represent the political philosophy and aspirations of their party.

If one votes simply on the personality of the figurehead and ignores the position of the party on the issues and its political agenda then the Presidency has been reduced to the same status of a beauty pageant. While Bush might not win any beauty pageants or personality contests, he nevertheless represents the interests of the party that nominated him for the office. Ditto for Gore. Would any rational person subscribing to the political philosophy of one party vote in the other just because they liked its representative's smile? This isn't very hard to figure out and why the questions keep coming is totally beyond me.
 
Even more reasons the hand count is flawed.
'flawed' count
>>
&quot;Racicot said Bush ballots have been &quot;found in the Gore pile to be counted as Gore votes. &quot;The Democratic observer later apologized to the Republican counterpart, telling him that the stack of ballots was different last night, and, in his own words, had been sabotaged. &quot;
<<

Gov. Bush best represents my views as to the direction this country should head. He has done an admirable job as Gov. of Texas and I believe will do an even better job as President of the United States.


edited just for Red.
 


<< Some good news for Russ.....from CNN at about 8pm PST.... >>



ride525,

Actually, if the trend continued, it's good news for America, not me. But, it's far too early to make any assumptions.

Michael does bring up an interesting point, though. In PBC, a 1% check yields a significant difference in favor of Bore, yet at 20% nothing has changed. Gee, I wonder why they selected the precincts they did for the initial 1% test? Of course it couldn't be because the democrats have been manipulating the process.

Russ, NCNE
 
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