Alan Dershowitz blasts Columbia Faculty

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: tss4
If those other people had worked harder in high school then they could have gone to an ivy league school too. You guys are always talking about how you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't get what you want. That's the republican motto. Don't blame others. Going to an ivy league or other prestiguos school opens up opportunities. The more driven, career motivated student will seize the opportunity. And your school actually did have a mild amount of grade inflation. 3.4 is over a B+. The average should technically be around a C. At cornell it was a C+. This is not a problem unique to the ivys and Rip was saying that it was and therefore was a sign that Harvard was not respectable.

Not everyone that works hard and is smart can go to an ivy league school. Ever tried applying to an ivy league school when you're graduating from a non-accredited high school? I have. I don't think I've ever been laughed at so hard in my life. They didn't even bother sending a rejection letter, a notification that they had received my application, nothing. Was it my fault that the public education system in my parents' home town is completely useless? Was it my fault that my parents couldn't afford to send me to a better high school? There wasn't even one around if they could have.

Thus, my chances of succeeding were not limited by my drive/hard work/intellect at all, but by my particular circumstances. I got into a decent school and got no scholarships despite astronomical SAT scores and a good GPA - I'll be paying for it for the rest of my life. I am all for personal responsibility. However, I fail to see how that applies to acceptance at ivy league schools, nor do I see how that has any bearing on the discussion of grade inflation. I see even less how it has anything to do with liberal professors shoving ideology down the throats of students, which is what this thread was about prior to our hijacking. 😛

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In 2002, 91 percent of Harvard seniors graduated with some kind of honor on their diploma. That makes graduating with honors pretty meaningless.

Of course it's impressive to those who don't know any better.

This is exactly my point. The entire purpose of graduating with distinction is that some distinction exists. That is also the purpose of GPA - to offer some comparison of how much a student knows between universities. Assume that universities X and Y have identical reputation. If a student at university X knows exactly the same as a student at university Y, they should have the same GPA (assuming similar effort, blah blah). But, university Y inflates grades, so now you have student X with a 3.4 and student Y with a 3.9. Who will get a better job? Who will be more likely to succeed? Student Y. This is why grade inflation is wrong.

Sure grade inflation is worng and no one is arguing otherwise, but schools across the spectrum do it, so why is Rip using it to attack Harvard? If Harvard was conservative he'd say it was unfair to single out harvard for what everyone is doing.

Here's something you should consider. We know harvard is more selective than the less selective college B. If you grade on a curve at both colleges, the exact same student will face stiffer competition at Harvard than he will at college B. He will get a lower grade at Harvard than he will at B even though we're talking about the exact same student (intelligence wise). Why can't harvard adjust for that? When some less prestigous college does it, its far worse because they are actually misrepresenting their students.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In 2002, 91 percent of Harvard seniors graduated with some kind of honor on their diploma. That makes graduating with honors pretty meaningless.

Of course it's impressive to those who don't know any better.

You're right Rip Harvard and all ivy's are horrible schools that ruin otherwise good students. I'm sure you've come to this conclsuion after careful and objective consideration of the facts and not because you have a hatred for all things the least bit liberal.

I've never said they are horrible schools. I'm saying that some are diminshing themselves and tarnishing their reputations by inflating grades.

I think that you're naive if you don't believe that there are students at Ivy League schools who are only there because they are well connected.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: tss4
If those other people had worked harder in high school then they could have gone to an ivy league school too. You guys are always talking about how you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't get what you want. That's the republican motto. Don't blame others. Going to an ivy league or other prestiguos school opens up opportunities. The more driven, career motivated student will seize the opportunity. And your school actually did have a mild amount of grade inflation. 3.4 is over a B+. The average should technically be around a C. At cornell it was a C+. This is not a problem unique to the ivys and Rip was saying that it was and therefore was a sign that Harvard was not respectable.

Not everyone that works hard and is smart can go to an ivy league school. Ever tried applying to an ivy league school when you're graduating from a non-accredited high school? I have. I don't think I've ever been laughed at so hard in my life. They didn't even bother sending a rejection letter, a notification that they had received my application, nothing. Was it my fault that the public education system in my parents' home town is completely useless? Was it my fault that my parents couldn't afford to send me to a better high school? There wasn't even one around if they could have.

Thus, my chances of succeeding were not limited by my drive/hard work/intellect at all, but by my particular circumstances. I got into a decent school and got no scholarships despite astronomical SAT scores and a good GPA - I'll be paying for it for the rest of my life. I am all for personal responsibility. However, I fail to see how that applies to acceptance at ivy league schools, nor do I see how that has any bearing on the discussion of grade inflation. I see even less how it has anything to do with liberal professors shoving ideology down the throats of students, which is what this thread was about prior to our hijacking. 😛

It applies because we take the hand we're dealt and we make our own luck. (Yes, a republican concept, I don't totally disagree with you) I did not go to a good school either (half my class didn't even graduate and I can count the number that went to college and stayed there on one hand). But I wanted it so badly, I had perfect scores all the way through school and applied to over a 100 scholarships to make it happen. I wanted out of that town.

This has had nothing to do with the topic of this thread but if you have a problem with that you should mention that to rip who decided to take a shot at ivy league schools as a a way to discredit my comment that ivy leagues expose people to new ideas (liberal and conservative). Rather than counter that arguement he proceeded to lead us down this path of why ivy leagues are bad places.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In 2002, 91 percent of Harvard seniors graduated with some kind of honor on their diploma. That makes graduating with honors pretty meaningless.

Of course it's impressive to those who don't know any better.

This is exactly my point. The entire purpose of graduating with distinction is that some distinction exists. That is also the purpose of GPA - to offer some comparison of how much a student knows between universities. Assume that universities X and Y have identical reputation. If a student at university X knows exactly the same as a student at university Y, they should have the same GPA (assuming similar effort, blah blah). But, university Y inflates grades, so now you have student X with a 3.4 and student Y with a 3.9. Who will get a better job? Who will be more likely to succeed? Student Y. This is why grade inflation is wrong.

Sure grade inflation is worng and no one is arguing otherwise, but schools across the spectrum do it, so why is Rip using it to attack Harvard? If Harvard was conservative he'd say it was unfair to single out harvard for what everyone is doing.

Here's something you should consider. We know harvard is more selective than the less selective college B. If you grade on a curve at both colleges, the exact same student will face stiffer competition at Harvard than he will at college B. He will get a lower grade at Harvard than he will at B even though we're talking about the exact same student (intelligence wise). Why can't harvard adjust for that? When some less prestigous college does it, its far worse because they are actually misrepresenting their students.

He will get a lower grade at Harvard? How can you say that when half of the students at Harvard receive A's?

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In 2002, 91 percent of Harvard seniors graduated with some kind of honor on their diploma. That makes graduating with honors pretty meaningless.

Of course it's impressive to those who don't know any better.

You're right Rip Harvard and all ivy's are horrible schools that ruin otherwise good students. I'm sure you've come to this conclsuion after careful and objective consideration of the facts and not because you have a hatred for all things the least bit liberal.

I've never said they are horrible schools. I'm saying that some are diminshing themselves and tarnishing their reputations by inflating grades.

I think that you're naive if you don't believe that there are students at Ivy League schools who are only there because they are well connected.

You deaf, idiot. I just said a page ago they were there, but the VAST majority are middle class and worked for what thy got. I was there! The school wasn't a bunch of well connected white boys.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In 2002, 91 percent of Harvard seniors graduated with some kind of honor on their diploma. That makes graduating with honors pretty meaningless.

Of course it's impressive to those who don't know any better.

This is exactly my point. The entire purpose of graduating with distinction is that some distinction exists. That is also the purpose of GPA - to offer some comparison of how much a student knows between universities. Assume that universities X and Y have identical reputation. If a student at university X knows exactly the same as a student at university Y, they should have the same GPA (assuming similar effort, blah blah). But, university Y inflates grades, so now you have student X with a 3.4 and student Y with a 3.9. Who will get a better job? Who will be more likely to succeed? Student Y. This is why grade inflation is wrong.

Sure grade inflation is worng and no one is arguing otherwise, but schools across the spectrum do it, so why is Rip using it to attack Harvard? If Harvard was conservative he'd say it was unfair to single out harvard for what everyone is doing.

Here's something you should consider. We know harvard is more selective than the less selective college B. If you grade on a curve at both colleges, the exact same student will face stiffer competition at Harvard than he will at college B. He will get a lower grade at Harvard than he will at B even though we're talking about the exact same student (intelligence wise). Why can't harvard adjust for that? When some less prestigous college does it, its far worse because they are actually misrepresenting their students.

He will get a lower grade at Harvard? How can you say that when half of the students at Harvard receive A's?

You don't read, do you? I said if they were on a straight curve with no grade inflation, they would get a lower grade because they are dealing with tougher competition.

 

[imported_tss4]

I can't take it anymore. Rip, You're an idiot that speaks of things he has no personal experience with. You win because I cannot take another one of your one line responses that completely ignores everything I have said. You win by attrition.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: tss4
If those other people had worked harder in high school then they could have gone to an ivy league school too. You guys are always talking about how you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't get what you want. That's the republican motto. Don't blame others. Going to an ivy league or other prestiguos school opens up opportunities. The more driven, career motivated student will seize the opportunity. And your school actually did have a mild amount of grade inflation. 3.4 is over a B+. The average should technically be around a C. At cornell it was a C+. This is not a problem unique to the ivys and Rip was saying that it was and therefore was a sign that Harvard was not respectable.

Not everyone that works hard and is smart can go to an ivy league school. Ever tried applying to an ivy league school when you're graduating from a non-accredited high school? I have. I don't think I've ever been laughed at so hard in my life. They didn't even bother sending a rejection letter, a notification that they had received my application, nothing. Was it my fault that the public education system in my parents' home town is completely useless? Was it my fault that my parents couldn't afford to send me to a better high school? There wasn't even one around if they could have.

Thus, my chances of succeeding were not limited by my drive/hard work/intellect at all, but by my particular circumstances. I got into a decent school and got no scholarships despite astronomical SAT scores and a good GPA - I'll be paying for it for the rest of my life. I am all for personal responsibility. However, I fail to see how that applies to acceptance at ivy league schools, nor do I see how that has any bearing on the discussion of grade inflation. I see even less how it has anything to do with liberal professors shoving ideology down the throats of students, which is what this thread was about prior to our hijacking. 😛

It applies because we take the hand we're dealt and we make our own luck. (Yes, a republican concept, I don't totally disagree with you) I did not go to a good school either (half my class didn't even graduate and I can count the number that went to college and stayed there on one hand). But I wanted it so badly, I had perfect scores all the way through school and applied to over a 100 scholarships to make it happen. I wanted out of that town.

This has had nothing to do with the topic of this thread but if you have a problem with that you should mention that to rip who decided to take a shot at ivy league schools as a a way to discredit my comment that ivy leagues expose people to new ideas (liberal and conservative). Rather than counter that arguement he proceeded to lead us down this path of why ivy leagues are bad places.

You're the one who puffed up ivy league schools by saying that the discourse there was so much superior to what you can find on the Anandtech forums.

Sometimes new ideas and concepts come from unlikely places. Don't limit yourself by thinking those that aren't as well educated as you can't teach you something.

 

[imported_tss4]

I said any college (specific reference to my state graduate school), you choose to make it about ivy leagues, so it had nothing to do with education level. You will not lie.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: tss4
I said any college (specific reference to my state graduate school), you choose to make it about ivy leagues, so it had nothing to do with education level. You will not lie.

And I quote:

"And comparing the Anandtech political forum to the discussions at an ivy league school is laughable at best." - tss4

Go back and read you post.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: tss4
I can't take it anymore. Rip, You're an idiot that speaks of things he has no personal experience with. You win because I cannot take another one of your one line responses that completely ignores everything I have said. You win by attrition.

Dude, don't feel alone here. I can't remember how many times I've asked in this very thread for a single example of something the Middle East Studies professors did/said that "encouraged Islamic terrorism." All I got were *tumbleweeds* and *crickets* and chances are these dolts don't even have clue one what these professors were talking about, just that whatever it was they're quite sure it's endangering America in some way.

Pffft. Pathetic. :disgust:

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: tss4
I said any college (specific reference to my state graduate school), you choose to make it about ivy leagues, so it had nothing to do with education level. You will not lie.

And I quote:

"And comparing the Anandtech political forum to the discussions at an ivy league school is laughable at best." - tss4

Go back and read you post.

Finish what I said, rip:


"I've also attended a public university later fror my grad work. So, I can, also, safely say that the level of discourse at any respectable college is light years ahead of the discourse here." -tss4

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: tss4
I can't take it anymore. Rip, You're an idiot that speaks of things he has no personal experience with. You win because I cannot take another one of your one line responses that completely ignores everything I have said. You win by attrition.

Dude, don't feel alone here. I can't remember how many times I've asked in this very thread for a single example of something the Middle East Studies professors did/said that "encouraged Islamic terrorism." All I got were *tumbleweeds* and *crickets* and chances are these dolts don't even have clue one what these professors were talking about, just that whatever it was they're quite sure it's endangering America in some way.

Pffft. Pathetic. :disgust:

amen

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: tss4
I can't take it anymore. Rip, You're an idiot that speaks of things he has no personal experience with. You win because I cannot take another one of your one line responses that completely ignores everything I have said. You win by attrition.

Dude, don't feel alone here. I can't remember how many times I've asked in this very thread for a single example of something the Middle East Studies professors did/said that "encouraged Islamic terrorism." All I got were *tumbleweeds* and *crickets* and chances are these dolts don't even have clue one what these professors were talking about, just that whatever it was they're quite sure it's endangering America in some way.

Pffft. Pathetic. :disgust:

Tenured Extremism

 

[imported_tss4]

Yet, all the students think he's a nut job. Seems, without meaning to, he's done more to discredit terrorism than to foster it. Students are not idiots, Rip.

Tenure exist to protect the expression of ideas at college campuses (bad and good). That's a noble idea.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: tss4
I can't take it anymore. Rip, You're an idiot that speaks of things he has no personal experience with. You win because I cannot take another one of your one line responses that completely ignores everything I have said. You win by attrition.

Dude, don't feel alone here. I can't remember how many times I've asked in this very thread for a single example of something the Middle East Studies professors did/said that "encouraged Islamic terrorism." All I got were *tumbleweeds* and *crickets* and chances are these dolts don't even have clue one what these professors were talking about, just that whatever it was they're quite sure it's endangering America in some way.

Pffft. Pathetic. :disgust:

Tenured Extremism

Good job. DealMonkey there you have it. Stop bitching and whining

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Tenured Extremism

Ahhhh, so you offer as proof an extremist right-wing publication taking Joseph A. Massad completely out of context. I'd love to see those quotes in context. Either way though, I don't see much in this piece that differs from common/typical Middle Eastern points of view. I would humbly suggest that the goal of a Middle East Studies professor is to enlighten you as to how the Middle East really views the rest of the world, and in this case Israel specifically ... I guess you just don't want to hear it.

EDIT: Or worse yet, you'd like to silence him. It's like 1950s communist hysteria all over again and 50+ years later, Rip and Raildogg are playing McCarthy. Whatever.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Tenured Extremism

Ahhhh, so you offer as proof an extremist right-wing publication taking Joseph A. Massad completely out of context. I'd love to see those quotes in context. Either way though, I don't see much in this piece that differs from common/typical Middle Eastern points of view. I would humbly suggest that the goal of a Middle East Studies professor is to enlighten you as to how the Middle East really views the rest of the world, and in this case Israel specifically ... I guess you just don't want to hear it.

Stop denying the fact there is a lot of anti Israel feelings on the campuses across America. A lot of this stems from anti-Semitism generated by left wing mean hateful professors. Truly sickening

Who cares in what way he is saying this. He is clearly saying the Jews do not have a right to have their own country and one might even question if he thinks the Jews are worthy enough to live. This kind of talk incites violence, hatred and does nothing to solve problems.

This turd should be fired immediately

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: raildogg
Stop denying the fact there is a lot of anti Israel feelings on the campuses across America. A lot of this stems from anti-Semitism generated by left wing mean hateful professors. Truly sickening

Who cares in what way he is saying this. He is clearly saying the Jews do not have a right to have their own country and one might even question if he thinks the Jews are worthy enough to live. This kind of talk incites violence, hatred and does nothing to solve problems.

This turd should be fired immediately

Riiiiight, anyone who disagrees with your pro-Israel PoV should be punished/fired. Oh man, you people make me sick. You really don't know what America is all about. Disagree with him, argue with him, but don't punish someone for their opinions. It's your kind of attitude that's truly denigrating this country and all it stands for.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Tenured Extremism

Ahhhh, so you offer as proof an extremist right-wing publication taking Joseph A. Massad completely out of context. I'd love to see those quotes in context. Either way though, I don't see much in this piece that differs from common/typical Middle Eastern points of view. I would humbly suggest that the goal of a Middle East Studies professor is to enlighten you as to how the Middle East really views the rest of the world, and in this case Israel specifically ... I guess you just don't want to hear it.

EDIT: Or worse yet, you'd like to silence him. It's like 1950s communist hysteria all over again and 50+ years later, Rip and Raildogg are playing McCarthy. Whatever.

Why did you want to see proof if you were just going to discount it?

What's the point? Why didn't you just say that you didn't care what he said?

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: raildogg
Stop denying the fact there is a lot of anti Israel feelings on the campuses across America. A lot of this stems from anti-Semitism generated by left wing mean hateful professors. Truly sickening

Who cares in what way he is saying this. He is clearly saying the Jews do not have a right to have their own country and one might even question if he thinks the Jews are worthy enough to live. This kind of talk incites violence, hatred and does nothing to solve problems.

This turd should be fired immediately

Riiiiight, anyone who disagrees with your pro-Israel PoV should be punished/fired. Oh man, you people make me sick. You really don't know what America is all about. Disagree with him, argue with him, but don't punish someone for their opinions. It's your kind of attitude that's truly denigrating this country and all it stands for.

When someone is inciting hatred and violence he or she should be punished. That is all. I could care less what this scum says as long as its reasonable. Stop lying, I never said silence people. I don't care if you hate Israel or not, or are anti-Semite, as a lot of these mean hateful elitist liberal professors are, as long as you don't create a violent enviroment.

Hate Israel and America all you want, I could care less. But if you stir trouble and fill the minds of young people with garbage, then you should be looked into.

 

[Steeplerot]

fixed:
Hate your fellow human beings all you want, I could care less. But if you stir trouble and fill the minds of young people with fear, then you should be pitied and shunned.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: raildogg
Stop denying the fact there is a lot of anti Israel feelings on the campuses across America. A lot of this stems from anti-Semitism generated by left wing mean hateful professors. Truly sickening

Who cares in what way he is saying this. He is clearly saying the Jews do not have a right to have their own country and one might even question if he thinks the Jews are worthy enough to live. This kind of talk incites violence, hatred and does nothing to solve problems.

This turd should be fired immediately

Riiiiight, anyone who disagrees with your pro-Israel PoV should be punished/fired. Oh man, you people make me sick. You really don't know what America is all about. Disagree with him, argue with him, but don't punish someone for their opinions. It's your kind of attitude that's truly denigrating this country and all it stands for.

When someone is inciting hatred and violence he or she should be punished. That is all. I could care less what this scum says as long as its reasonable. Stop lying, I never said silence people. I don't care if you hate Israel or not, or are anti-Semite, as a lot of these mean hateful elitist liberal professors are, as long as you don't create a violent enviroment.

Hate Israel and America all you want, I could care less. But if you stir trouble and fill the minds of young people with garbage, then you should be looked into.

And yet I'll bet you that you can't come up with one example of anyone being incited to hatred or violence based on anything these professors had to say. In fact, I'd also bet that the college students taking Middle East Studies classes at CU are quite a bit more discerning than you. It seems obvious, but perhaps warrants clarification here, that taking a Middle East Studies class means you have some interest in the region and what the people think/feel about world events.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Tenured Extremism

Ahhhh, so you offer as proof an extremist right-wing publication taking Joseph A. Massad completely out of context. I'd love to see those quotes in context. Either way though, I don't see much in this piece that differs from common/typical Middle Eastern points of view. I would humbly suggest that the goal of a Middle East Studies professor is to enlighten you as to how the Middle East really views the rest of the world, and in this case Israel specifically ... I guess you just don't want to hear it.

EDIT: Or worse yet, you'd like to silence him. It's like 1950s communist hysteria all over again and 50+ years later, Rip and Raildogg are playing McCarthy. Whatever.

Why did you want to see proof if you were just going to discount it?

What's the point? Why didn't you just say that you didn't care what he said?

Why can't we see the quotes in context? Instead, Front Page pulls a couple of words at a time to make their "case." Hell, I could take Bush's SotU speech and do the exact same thing.