Alabama illustrates the problem with voter ID laws

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Assuming there is little actual in person voter fraud, there are several enormous benefits to a well-written law. First, at minimal to no cost it protects the integrity of the system by implementing measures to prevent or limit the potential for future actions that would violate the foundation of our government.

Second, it reduces the risk of political attacks on the confidence of election results through allegations of voter fraud. It is far less costly to prevent fraud then to launch an investigation to determine whether fraud occurred.

Third, a well-written law would result in more people with IDs.

With a well-written law, the burden in obtaining an ID is a net benefit because now the person has an ID. The law would literally pay for itself in terms of cost/benefit wuthout any need to include the benefit of preventing voter fraud in the analysis.

If current safeguards were inadequate, you'd be able to prove significant fraud. You cannot. You offer a solution in search of a problem.

You have not justified placing any additional burden on anybody's voting rights. You know full well that doing so will reduce participation by target groups, leading to the inevitable conclusion that such was the intention from the start.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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If current safeguards were inadequate, you'd be able to prove significant fraud. You cannot. You offer a solution in search of a problem.

You have not justified placing any additional burden on anybody's voting rights. You know full well that doing so will reduce participation by target groups, leading to the inevitable conclusion that such was the intention from the start.

The only reason there's an additional burden is because your side is adamantly opposed to spending money or resources getting them IDs. Because again these aren't real people who could be helped by having an ID, they're just abstract votes for your team.
 
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The only reason there's an additional burden is because your side is adamantly opposed to spending money or resources getting them IDs. Because again these aren't real people who could be helped by having an ID, they're just abstract votes for your team.

You think it's liberals in Alabama who are shutting down all the DMVs? You really are completely blinded by partisanship.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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Thereby protecting the fundamental basis of our government.

If the government has a legitimate interest in taking a census of its population, it most certainly has a legitimate interest of asking voters to verify they are actually the citizen they claim to be.

Once registered, signature matching proves identity. That's the basis for every legal document ever created. A variety of documents can readily be used to prove residency.

Another question - what percentage of people without IDs rely upon illegal actions in their daily lives? For example, driving without a license, working for an employer that doesn't comply with I9 requirements, or buying alcohol at places that don't comply with ID laws?

That's a red herring & an attempted smear against anybody whose ID isn't perfect & up to date.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,139
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Assuming there is little actual in person voter fraud, there are several enormous benefits to a well-written law. First, at minimal to no cost it protects the integrity of the system by implementing measures to prevent or limit the potential for future actions that would violate the foundation of our government.

It's almost impossible to imagine how in person voter fraud could do that in any plausible scenario. The mechanics of it are simply too hard. That's basically zero benefit.

Second, it reduces the risk of political attacks on the confidence of election results through allegations of voter fraud.

That is a benefit!

Most Americans don't see voter fraud as a major problem though, and the number that see in-person voter fraud as a major problem is likely much smaller than that. Would you advocate disenfranchising people now based on the potential that Americans' opinions would change in the future? Doesn't that set a really bad precedent for laws?

It is far less costly to prevent fraud then to launch an investigation to determine whether fraud occurred.

That's almost certainly untrue. Implementing this policy would likely be several orders of magnitude more expensive than most investigations. You're talking millions per year per state.

Third, a well-written law would result in more people with IDs.

If you want to get more people ID's, then just pass a law to get more people IDs.

With a well-written law, the burden in obtaining an ID is a net benefit because now the person has an ID. The law would literally pay for itself in terms of cost/benefit wuthout any need to include the benefit of preventing voter fraud in the analysis.

That's an argument for passing laws to get people IDs, not an argument for voter ID laws.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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If you want to get more people ID's, then just pass a law to get more people IDs.

That's an argument for passing laws to get people IDs, not an argument for voter ID laws.

Your side just opposed that dumbass.
 
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Already spoke out against that some time ago, doesn't affect the underlying principle behind verifying voter identity.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37753841&postcount=308

But it does put a pretty big wrench in the argument that it is the liberal side doing it, doesn't it? You are willing to acknowledge the situation in Alabama exists, is bad, and is entirely the fault of conservatives, and then you turn around and claim "your side is adamantly opposed to spending money or resources getting them IDs." And you have the nerve to use the phrase "real people" when discussing the hypothetical scenario you concocted in your head while ignoring the "real people" in Alabama because they don't fit in to your argument. What a load of disingenuous horse shit.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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If current safeguards were inadequate, you'd be able to prove significant fraud. You cannot. You offer a solution in search of a problem.

False. The nature of this type of fraud combined with poor voter turnout makes it extremely difficult to detect this type of fraud and costly to investigate. It's like a murder in a war zone. It isn't worth the cost to conduct an autopsy on every dead body so there won't ever be evidence that the crime occurred.

Further, the problem is quite apparent. If there was a year with no car accidents, would you repeal mandatory insurance laws?

You have not justified placing any additional burden on anybody's voting rights. You know full well that doing so will reduce participation by target groups, leading to the inevitable conclusion that such was the intention from the start.

A well-written law would not. That may be the intention of many politicians and racists, but it isn't mine.

I support the removal of "under God" from the pledge of allegiance. That doesn't mean I am a Satanist.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Your side just opposed that dumbass.

While I'm not sure what you're talking about, regardless I wasn't aware that I needed to support all the actions of people on 'my side'.

I'd be all for states to take the initiative and get more people IDs. While they are at it though they should probably scrap their voter ID laws, because those laws are irrational.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,139
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False. The nature of this type of fraud combined with poor voter turnout makes it extremely difficult to detect this type of fraud and costly. It's like a murder in a war zone. It isn't worth the cost to conduct an autopsy on every dead body so there won't ever be evidence that the crime occurred.

Further, the problem is quite apparent. If there was a year with no car accidents, would you repeal mandatory insurance laws?

So to be clear, you think investigating to see if in person voter fraud exists costs too much money, but you're willing to spend millions and millions of dollars every year to prevent the very in-person voter fraud that you don't know exists.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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While I'm not sure what you're talking about, regardless I wasn't aware that I needed to support all the actions of people on 'my side'.

I'd be all for states to take the initiative and get more people IDs. While they are at it though they should probably scrap their voter ID laws, because those laws are irrational.

LOL, supporting fraud to the end. Sure, we should give everyone IDs so that they can use them for *everything else the state requires an ID for, except voting.* God what a hack you are.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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So now you are saying that fraud is happening it's just that you can't prove it because only 50% of the public capable of voting is too small to rear it's head? 60+ million people is too small of a number to detect in person voter fraud?

Do you hear yourself?

If current safeguards were inadequate, you'd be able to prove significant fraud. You cannot. You offer a solution in search of a problem.[\quote]

False. The nature of this type of fraud combined with poor voter turnout makes it extremely difficult to detect this type of fraud and costly. It's like a murder in a war zone. It isn't worth the cost to conduct an autopsy on every dead body so there won't ever be evidence that the crime occurred.

Further, the problem is quite apparent. If there was a year with no car accidents, would you repeal mandatory insurance laws?



A well-written law would not. That may be the intention of many politicians and racists, but it isn't mine.

I support the removal of "under God" from the pledge of allegiance. That doesn't mean I am a Satanist.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Lol. Why didn't you quote my post where I said I'd be for voter ID laws provided the ID's were issued for free along with no charge for acquiring any other necessary documents?

Do you think it's weird that your argument hinges on what an anonymous poster on the internet says?

LOL, why didn't you oppose the view expressed in the post I quoted then. You still have the opportunity to rebuke him and get on the correct side of saying we should get everyone IDs. Which offers numerous benefits to the people involved, one of which happens to be helping ensure their franchise rights can be assured?

Or you can be like Eskimospy and say we should give IDs for free, but asking people to show them at polls is somehow an impossible burden.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,546
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How about this: If you don't have a photo ID, when submitting your registration and proof of identity, include a passport sized photo. The proof of registration will be returned with the photo incorporated. Bring that to the polls.

Or how 'bout the Repubs who wrote these laws also make it easier to acquire a photo ID rather than harder (as it was meant to do) for those that these Repubs knew in advance would negatively affect.

Provisions could have been put in place along with these laws to do just that. But that would have negated the real core purpose of those laws to begin with, now wouldn't they?

And don't you find it so particularly odd that it's EXCLUSIVELY Repub controlled states that are enacting these laws? If voter fraud was such an alarming problem wouldn't the Dems also be as interested and concerned as the Repubs would like everyone to think they are? (given that fraud being equally destructive to both sides.)

Could it be that ONLY the Repubs are having a problem with in-booth voter fraud? Well, the numbers clearly show that isn't the case. What the preponderance of evidence CLEARLY shows is that that type of fraud is for all intent and purposes non-existent. And all I'm hearing from the Repub side of this issue are weak arguments and divertive double speak to avoid facing the facts head-on, because by doing that, they would have to admit they're going way out of their way and spending monies they don't have (closing any DMV's lately?) to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

If the Repubs are IN FACT enacting these laws because they TRULY are concerned with preventing voter fraud, then given the incontrovertible evidence that for all practical purposes it does not exist, the Repubs are making themselves look like idiots spending huge amounts of precious tax dollars that they themselves are making so much scarcer (tax cuts for the rich, remember?) on ghosts that nobody else can see.

Either way, there's no way the Repubs can come out looking clever and patriotic and concerned and HONEST about their intentions.

And beside that, there's no pretense to cover up here. Prominent Repubs have already freely admitted what those laws were really meant to do and have already done.

An example among thousands of which this was the first that google offered up:

" Last spring, for example, Pennsylvania House Majority Leader Mike Turzai told a gathering of Republicans that their voter identification law would “allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania.” That summer, at an event hosted by the Heritage Foundation, former Wall Street Journal columnist John Fund conceded that Democrats had a point about the GOP’s focus on voter ID, as opposed to those measures—such as absentee balloting—that are vulnerable to tampering. “I think it is a fair argument of some liberals that there are some people who emphasize the voter ID part more than the absentee ballot part because supposedly Republicans like absentee ballots more and they don’t want to restrict that,” he said.

After the election, former Florida GOP chairman Jim Greer told The Palm Beach Post that the explicit goal of the state’s voter-ID law was Democratic suppression. “The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates,” Greer told the Post. “It’s done for one reason and one reason only ... ‘We’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us,’” he said. Indeed, the Florida Republican Party imposed a host of policies, from longer ballots to fewer precincts in minority areas, meant to discourage voting. And it worked. According to one study, as many as 49,000 people were discouraged from voting in November 2012 as a result of long lines and other obstacles."


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...r-id-laws-are-aimed-at-democratic-voters.html
 
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Alabama is in the bottom quintile of states by educational attainment, the bottom third of states by teen pregnancy rates and the bottom tenth of states by average income; I think there are better things for them to spend money on than making sure every legal voter within their borders is provided with an ID. All this talk of "free IDs" is hogwash; if the state is paying, that money is coming from taxpayers, and it's directly impacting state budgets in other areas. A million dollars might be a drop in the bucket for a state budget, but that's no justification for spending it frivolously, and if your only rationale for enacting a program is preventing something that hasn't even been documented as happening, you are wasting taxpayer money.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Alabama is in the bottom quintile of states by educational attainment, the bottom third of states by teen pregnancy rates and the bottom tenth of states by average income; I think there are better things for them to spend money on than making sure every legal voter within their borders is provided with an ID. All this talk of "free IDs" is hogwash; if the state is paying, that money is coming from taxpayers, and its directly impacting state budgets in other areas. A million dollars might be a drop in the bucket for a state budget, but that's no justification for spending it frivolously, and if your only rationale for enacting a program is preventing something that hasn't even been documented as happening, you are wasting taxpayer money.

Your post saying it was wasteful was in response to mine saying it should be federally provided and paid-for. If you are so blinded by the idea that we may ask for ID that you can't see the myriad other benefits that spring from getting the poor an ID then I don't know what to say. Enjoy passing up an opportunity to help poor people while achieving other objectives at the same time I guess.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,139
48,216
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LOL, supporting fraud to the end. Sure, we should give everyone IDs so that they can use them for *everything else the state requires an ID for, except voting.* God what a hack you are.

Says the guy who freely admits he doesn't care if the law he supports is based in evidence or not. What a fucking hack, right?

Having an ID is a useful thing. Requiring ID to vote is a law that seeks to solve a problem that appears not to exist from the evidence. Opposing laws for which there is no evidence is simply common sense. I find it deeply ironic that conservatives are suddenly all for pointless laws as soon as it might help them win an election.

Just have the balls to admit you want to do it because it helps conservatives win elections. That's at least a rational reason, unlike trying to prevent nonexistent fraud. At least in that case you're just an asshole instead of being stupid and an asshole. :)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,139
48,216
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LOL, why didn't you oppose the view expressed in the post I quoted then. You still have the opportunity to rebuke him and get on the correct side of saying we should get everyone IDs. Which offers numerous benefits to the people involved, one of which happens to be helping ensure their franchise rights can be assured?

Or you can be like Eskimospy and say we should give IDs for free, but asking people to show them at polls is somehow an impossible burden.

It's not an impossible burden, it's an irrational burden.

Making a law to stop something that doesn't exist is irrational. This is not hard to understand.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Says the guy who freely admits he doesn't care if the law he supports is based in evidence or not. What a fucking hack, right?

Having an ID is a useful thing. Requiring ID to vote is a law that seeks to solve a problem that appears not to exist from the evidence. Opposing laws for which there is no evidence is simply common sense. I find it deeply ironic that conservatives are suddenly all for pointless laws as soon as it might help them win an election.

Just have the balls to admit you want to do it because it helps conservatives win elections. That's at least a rational reason, unlike trying to prevent nonexistent fraud. At least in that case you're just an asshole instead of being stupid and an asshole. :)

If we gave IDs to everyone for free and required them to be shown at polls, how does that possibly help anyone win an election? The overall burden to get an ID is then effectively zero and it shouldn't impact the number of people who vote in any way.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,139
48,216
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If we gave IDs to everyone for free and required them to be shown at polls, how does that possibly help anyone win an election? The overall burden to get an ID is then effectively zero and it shouldn't impact the number of people who vote in any way.

So now your argument is that it would be easy to comply with an irrational law, haha.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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It's not an impossible burden, it's an irrational burden.

Making a law to stop something that doesn't exist is irrational. This is not hard to understand.

LOL, so your argument is that "having an ID is a useful thing" that we should support (see 3 posts ago) but that asking people to show it at the voting booth is an irrational burden. Therefore we should oppose the same useful thing you supported 3 posts ago.

It's like you're the chief attorney writing a product disclaimer, "Warning: This photo ID product is useful but not to be used for voting purposes, unless done by trained personnel only having appropriate technical and mechanical expertise; may lead to damaged equipment, serious injury, or death."