- Oct 30, 2000
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Moonie - you seem to have a strong reaction aginst killing - can not fault you for that.
What would be your recommended solution for handling the radicals in the Middle East?
Moonie - you seem to have a strong reaction aginst killing - can not fault you for that.
What would be your recommended solution for handling the radicals in the Middle East?
If anything, they want Kucinich. The author is dead wrong. The sooner the U.S. withdraws the sooner a Shiite regime will be installed. Bush and Lieberman want to prolong the struggle and try to install an American style democracy. That will never happen and we all know it, except Joe Lieberman and the Republicans.
This is all mere speculation. None of us know diddly....
-Robert
This is all mere speculation. None of us know diddly....
-Robert
- Oct 30, 2000
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I am hoping to provoke an reasonable discussion on alternatives.
Part of the problem we Westerners have is that our logic does not dovetail with the logic of others.
Moonie may be off track, therefore, those ideas may provide some insight.
- Nov 17, 2002
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I suppose I was naive. Please note, I am NOT endorsing this columnist's assertions, but I think he raises interesting questions. In a likely vain attempt to get this on-topic, let me ask again (note the question marks at the end of most sentences):
1. Why did al Qaeda attack the U.S.? What do you think about the author's suggestion that 9/11 was intended to provoke U.S. military action in the Middle East, in order to "drive enough aggrieved Muslims into the arms of the Islamist radicals that their long-stalled revolutions against local regimes finally get off the ground?"
2. Who does al Qaeda support in Campaign 2004? Why? Show your work.
Extra credit: To what extent can al Qaeda influence this election? What methods might they try to use, and do they have the means to execute? (Diebold?)
1. Why did al Qaeda attack the U.S.? What do you think about the author's suggestion that 9/11 was intended to provoke U.S. military action in the Middle East, in order to "drive enough aggrieved Muslims into the arms of the Islamist radicals that their long-stalled revolutions against local regimes finally get off the ground?"
2. Who does al Qaeda support in Campaign 2004? Why? Show your work.
Extra credit: To what extent can al Qaeda influence this election? What methods might they try to use, and do they have the means to execute? (Diebold?)
Bow:
Why does a child throw a temper tantrum? To get attention.
The Muslims wanted our attention. Before 9-11 we couldn't be bothered.
They now have it. That is a big victory.
Now that they have our attention, we will be listening, and they know it. Another victory.
Once we are listening we will have to grapple with their issues. Yet another victory.
And so it goes.
What is one man's loss is another man's victory.
For Fundamentalist Muslims each "loss" is a victory, building a paradise from the desert, one grain of sand at a time.
-Robert
Why does a child throw a temper tantrum? To get attention.
The Muslims wanted our attention. Before 9-11 we couldn't be bothered.
They now have it. That is a big victory.
Now that they have our attention, we will be listening, and they know it. Another victory.
Once we are listening we will have to grapple with their issues. Yet another victory.
And so it goes.
What is one man's loss is another man's victory.
For Fundamentalist Muslims each "loss" is a victory, building a paradise from the desert, one grain of sand at a time.
-Robert
1. They attacked us because they are radicals who are hell bent on killing every last infidel (Non-extremist).. don't read into it any more than that.. they want us dead.
2. See #1.. I don't think they care. They will kill a democrat or republican.. they are not partisan in their killing.
Extra Credit: Take off the aluminum foil hat. Do you honestly think Al Qaeda could rig an election in the United States? If they could somehow hack the voting machines, don't you think it would be more effective to hack the ATM systems, or bank systems in the United States and cause financial chaos?
A little clue about conspiracy theories.. they are nearly always wrong.
Crimson:
Have you considered recalibrating your radar?
You are picking up signals from another galaxy.
-Robert
Have you considered recalibrating your radar?
You are picking up signals from another galaxy.
-Robert
I have a number of them but will just list a few.
1.Middle Eastern governments are tyranical and undemocratic and stay in power partly by deflecting criticism of themselves toward the US government. We get the hate that should go to them. We need to address this. How? Another story.
2.Terror thrives when there are lots of potential recrutes and that means a bad economy and a dead end life. What to do? Another story.
3.We need a to eliminate the appearance that we are biased toward Israel at every turn.
4.We need to spend more on international development and in a way that leads to international development, not the fattening of corporations.
5.We should begin a dialogue, internationally and in the press on the true meaning of Islam other religions and life. (Unfortunatley, I am as ignorant as most people on this subject, but I have heard that Waahabism, however it's called, in not the mainline faith nor the deepest form of Islam. Since Allah is God, I'm fairly convinced that the best Moslims and the best Christians are the same. I think also that God and Love are also one and the same, so love is a bit more potent, I guess for me, than maybe it is for Crimson. Islam is surrender to the Will of God and if God is love than I'm not to worried about those who've surrendered.)
- Oct 30, 2000
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Item #3: How? - pull the economic/military assistance - that is the only leverage that we have.
As has been shown over the past 50 years, UN Resolutions mean nothing to a country that feels that the resolution is illegimate and is aimed an destroying the country.
Item #4: Development requires funds and the ability to utilize those funds.
If we just throw money and the appropriate government, do they have the infrstructure to use the $$ as we intended?
If we are going to have a company handle the development, how should the company be selected.
a) By the host country (possible corruption/incompetence)
b) An US company, we have some control.
c) Foriegn company able to perform the work.
d) Company selected by the US within the host country.
Item #5: Many "average" people that follow Islam are not full of hatred. As you have indicated, it is those that have their frustrations/anger being channelled by others. It is these others that may need to be "educated". The media is an tool to disciminate information, however, it is easily manipulated and can be biased.
I think Al-Qaida has not a clue when it comes to America and politics. "We" cannot understand their beliefs and thought process anymore than "they" can ours. They are mutually exclusive.
For example, to even begin to understand the different political viewpoints on "Women's Rights", don't you have to fundamentally believe that a Woman has at least some rights?
For example, to even begin to understand the different political viewpoints on "Women's Rights", don't you have to fundamentally believe that a Woman has at least some rights?
Now there you go, deep into stereotype. Islam has lots of rights for women. Remember that ignorance of what Islam is is part of our problem?
EagleKeeper, you point to some problems but there are always problems. I can't address them all nor do I have all the answers. I outlined what I thought were a few and those very incomplete. Just making this clear. I didn't take your points as an attack so this is not a defense.
I just can't imagine that God doesn't love women.
Now there you, reading more into my words than is there
"they" means Al-Qaida. Al-qaida has a very extreme interpretation of Islam where women have virtually no rights.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Now there you, reading more into my words than is there
"they" means Al-Qaida. Al-qaida has a very extreme interpretation of Islam where women have virtually no rights.
Actually, it's not extreme at all. They are simply "true muslims" who follow the teachings of the Koran to the letter.
Do you honestly think the Koran DOESN'T say all non-believers should be killed?
Because it does and it is very clear. No "interpretation" is needed.
It is the more "moderate" muslims that choose not to follow certain teachings. That is why Al-Qaida doesn't care if muslims were killed in the WTC. To them, they were not true muslims. It is the moderate muslims that are selectively interpreting the Koran.
Originally posted by: Shanti
Originally posted by: alchemize
Now there you, reading more into my words than is there
"they" means Al-Qaida. Al-qaida has a very extreme interpretation of Islam where women have virtually no rights.
Actually, it's not extreme at all. They are simply "true muslims" who follow the teachings of the Koran to the letter.
Do you honestly think the Koran DOESN'T say all non-believers should be killed?
Because it does and it is very clear. No "interpretation" is needed.
It is the more "moderate" muslims that choose not to follow certain teachings. That is why Al-Qaida doesn't care if muslims were killed in the WTC. To them, they were not true muslims. It is the moderate muslims that are selectively interpreting the Koran.
Oh great, another fanatic who has all the answers.
This is an endless debate about any religion. Personally, I think every religion has been corrupted by man. Some more than others. Everything is subject to interpretation. Why do the mormons think that Joseph Smith stumbled over gold tablets while plowing a field? Why do the Jews only look to the Old Testament? Why do the Catholics believe that Popes and Bishops are somehow annointed by god? Selective interpretation.Originally posted by: Shanti
Originally posted by: alchemize
Now there you, reading more into my words than is there
"they" means Al-Qaida. Al-qaida has a very extreme interpretation of Islam where women have virtually no rights.
Actually, it's not extreme at all. They are simply "true muslims" who follow the teachings of the Koran to the letter.
Do you honestly think the Koran DOESN'T say all non-believers should be killed?
Because it does and it is very clear. No "interpretation" is needed.
It is the more "moderate" muslims that choose not to follow certain teachings. That is why Al-Qaida doesn't care if muslims were killed in the WTC. To them, they were not true muslims. It is the moderate muslims that are selectively interpreting the Koran.
Yes, the Koran says some nasty things about infidels and jews. Islam needs a Ghandi, a JC and the gang, not another firebreathing holy roller.
Crimson, you and some of the others of limited imagination have asked, what should we have done?
But first, let me deal with one of your illustrative quotes from earlier in this thread, " 01/22/2004 11:14 PM (NEW!)
Quote
I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.
Be careful of what you wish for. Words should represent ideas. If the Middle East just "suddenly ceased to exist," you'd soon be walking to work. They supply the world with oil. Yes, there are other sources. Yes, we are not as dependent on the Middle East as others. But, at least if thoughts have to filter through you fingers instead of your mouth, think about what you're typing.
EDITED: Sorry I got into this. I just read through the rest of the rant -- uh, I mean thread. Crimson, it's two of the pink pills and one of the gray pills on Friday. I think you got your schedule mixed up. Yes, that's an insult -- and, preversly, I'm sorry for it -- but the lunacy made me do it.
And, in case you meant "all the People in the Middle East" disappear. Think about what that would mean.
But first, let me deal with one of your illustrative quotes from earlier in this thread, " 01/22/2004 11:14 PM (NEW!)
Quote
I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.
Be careful of what you wish for. Words should represent ideas. If the Middle East just "suddenly ceased to exist," you'd soon be walking to work. They supply the world with oil. Yes, there are other sources. Yes, we are not as dependent on the Middle East as others. But, at least if thoughts have to filter through you fingers instead of your mouth, think about what you're typing.
EDITED: Sorry I got into this. I just read through the rest of the rant -- uh, I mean thread. Crimson, it's two of the pink pills and one of the gray pills on Friday. I think you got your schedule mixed up. Yes, that's an insult -- and, preversly, I'm sorry for it -- but the lunacy made me do it.
And, in case you meant "all the People in the Middle East" disappear. Think about what that would mean.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
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The answers are there for all who choose to see them.Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Shanti
Originally posted by: alchemize
Now there you, reading more into my words than is there
"they" means Al-Qaida. Al-qaida has a very extreme interpretation of Islam where women have virtually no rights.
Actually, it's not extreme at all. They are simply "true muslims" who follow the teachings of the Koran to the letter.
Do you honestly think the Koran DOESN'T say all non-believers should be killed?
Because it does and it is very clear. No "interpretation" is needed.
It is the more "moderate" muslims that choose not to follow certain teachings. That is why Al-Qaida doesn't care if muslims were killed in the WTC. To them, they were not true muslims. It is the moderate muslims that are selectively interpreting the Koran.
Oh great, another fanatic who has all the answers.
Read the Koran, then explain to me how Al-Qaida is "twisting" it and not simply following the teachings.
Do you know what fundamentalism means?
Fundamentalist muslims are not extremists. They are literalists.
This debate has been conducted many, many times before.
Link
Link 2 (probably the most objective glance at a comparison of Christianity and Islam)
Link 3
Link 4
I can bring up more, if you'd like.
Cheers!
Nate
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
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As I've said before, I'm sure you can find violence advocated in the bible as well.
The difference is that there are thousands upon thousands who believe it is good and right to kill non-muslims simply because they are non-muslims.
And there are millions of people, who while they may not participate, still celebrate and dance in the streets after an event like 9/11.
Fundamentalist Muslims who support groups like Al-Qaida are not just a few bad guys.
They number in the millions.
Qur?an 9:5 ?Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.?
Qur?an 9:112 ?The Believers fight in Allah?s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.?
Qur?an 9:29 ?Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.?
Ishaq:325 ?Muslims, fight in Allah?s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.?
Qur?an 8:39 ?Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.?
Qur?an 8:39 ?So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).?
Ishaq:324 ?He said, ?Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.??
Qur?an 9:14 ?Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.?
Ishaq:300 ?I am fighting in Allah?s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah?s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.?
Ishaq:587 ?Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.?
The difference is that there are thousands upon thousands who believe it is good and right to kill non-muslims simply because they are non-muslims.
And there are millions of people, who while they may not participate, still celebrate and dance in the streets after an event like 9/11.
Fundamentalist Muslims who support groups like Al-Qaida are not just a few bad guys.
They number in the millions.
Qur?an 9:5 ?Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.?
Qur?an 9:112 ?The Believers fight in Allah?s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.?
Qur?an 9:29 ?Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.?
Ishaq:325 ?Muslims, fight in Allah?s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.?
Qur?an 8:39 ?Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.?
Qur?an 8:39 ?So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).?
Ishaq:324 ?He said, ?Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.??
Qur?an 9:14 ?Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.?
Ishaq:300 ?I am fighting in Allah?s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah?s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.?
Ishaq:587 ?Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.?
Deuteronomy 13 (the entire chapter)
1 Samuel 15:3
Deuteronomy 21:18-22
Numbers 25
Deuteronomy 2:34
Hosea 13:16
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
I'll leave quoting the actual verses to you. We can go back and forth for days on this subject; care to move on? Or do you want to keep flogging a dead and quite tender horse?
Link - A simplistic comparison, although no more simplistic and taken-out-of-context than yours or mine.
Cheers!
Nate
1 Samuel 15:3
Deuteronomy 21:18-22
Numbers 25
Deuteronomy 2:34
Hosea 13:16
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
I'll leave quoting the actual verses to you. We can go back and forth for days on this subject; care to move on? Or do you want to keep flogging a dead and quite tender horse?
Link - A simplistic comparison, although no more simplistic and taken-out-of-context than yours or mine.
Cheers!
Nate
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
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Did you miss my statement before the quotes?
And can you show me a time in the past 100 years where hundreds of thousands of people marched in the streets and celebrated the murder of muslims?
The only point I was trying to make is that it is foolish and incorrect to believe that the problem is just a few extremist nuts.
If we expect to do anything about terrorism, we must realize that fundamentalist/extremist Islam is the problem and that it is much more widespread than many people admit.
Yes, the majority of muslims may be peaceful.
But the fact is that there are millions of muslims who support the cause of Al-Qaida.
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