Al-Qaida will do whatever it takes to assure Bush is re-elected

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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From the Salt Lake Tribune: Al-Qaida will do whatever it takes to assure Bush is re-elected
Gwynne Dyer - SYNDICATED COLUMNIST

I have always admired Edward Luttwak, one of the clearest American thinkers in the strategy/security game, and I have nothing but contempt for the U.S. Homeland Security Department (Heimatsicherheitsabteilung, in the original German) and its ridiculous color-coded threat levels.

So I started reading a recent article by the former on the latter with genuine pleasure, anticipating that Luttwak was going to condemn Homeland Security for its habit of running up the levels from puce to magenta and back down to mauve, shredding Americans' nerves with warnings nobody can respond to in a useful way, for no better reason than to cover its own bureaucratic behind.

That's just what he did, and the article was rollicking along with me cheering Luttwak on every line of the way -- when his whole argument suddenly veered off into the ditch, rolled three times, and lay there bleeding.

What he said was: "The successive warnings of ill-defined threats that frighten many Americans are achieving the very aim of the terrorists. Terrorism cannot materially weaken the United States, so their entire purpose is precisely to terrorize, to make Americans unhappy, in the hope that this will induce them to accept terrorist demands."

If one of the most clever security analysts in the country has got no further than this in his thinking about what the terrorists want, then it's no surprise that 60 or 70 percent of Luttwak's fellow countrymen believe that Saddam Hussein sent the terrorists. He thinks that the terrorists are trying to make Americans unhappy in order to "induce them to accept terrorist demands"? What demands could the Islamist terrorists of al-Qaida possibly make that the United States could conceivably grant?

Fly them all to Havana? Convert to Islam? Put the money in unmarked notes in a brown paper bag and leave it behind the radiator? The whole notion that this is some sort of giant extortion operation is as naive (or as wilfully ignorant) as the Bush administration's pet explanation that the terrorists attack the U.S. because "they hate our freedoms." Unfortunately, the post-9-11 intellectual climate in the United States has prevented any serious discussion of the terrorists' goals and their strategies for achieving them.

In the post-9-11 chill, even conceding that the terrorist leaders are intelligent people with rational goals seemed somehow disloyal to America's dead. Instead, it was assumed that their fanaticism made them too blind or stupid for purposeful action at the strategic level. Even terrorist groups as marginal and self-deluded as the Baader-Meinhof Gang and the Weathermen had a more or less coherent analysis, political goals and some notion of how their attacks moved them toward those goals, but the public debate in the U.S. grants none of that to al-Qaida.

Yet the Islamist radicals have always been completely open about their goals. They want to take power in the Muslim countries (phase one of the project), and then unite the entire Muslim world in a final struggle to overthrow the power of the West (phase two). They are still stuck in phase one, with little to show for it despite 30 years of trying, so in the early 1990s Osama bin Laden and his colleagues switched from head-on assaults on the regimes in Muslim countries to direct attacks on Western targets. Yet their first-phase goal remains seizing power in the Muslim world, not some fantasy about "bringing the West to its knees."

Terrorists generally rant about their goals but stay silent about their strategies, so now we have to do a little work for ourselves. If the real goal is still revolutions that bring Islamist radicals to power, then how does attacking the West help? Well, the U.S. in particular may be goaded into retaliating by bombing or even invading various Muslim countries -- and in doing so, may drive enough aggrieved Muslims into the arms of the Islamist radicals that their long-stalled revolutions against local regimes finally get off the ground.

Most analysts outside the United States long ago concluded that that was the principal motive for the 9-11 attack. They would add that by giving the Bush administration a reason to attack Afghanistan, and at least a flimsy pretext for invading Iraq, al-Qaida's attacks have paid off handsomely. U.S. troops are now the unwelcome military rulers of more than 50 million Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq, and people there and elsewhere are turning to the Islamist radicals as the only force in the Muslim world that is willing and able to defy American power.

It is astonishing how little this is understood in the United States. I know of no American analyst who has even made the obvious point that al-Qaida wants Bush to win next November's presidential election and continue his interventionist policies in the Middle East for another four years, and will act to save Bush from defeat if necessary.

It probably would not do so unless Bush's number were slipping badly, for any terrorist attack on U.S. soil carries the risk of stimulating resentment against the current administration for failing to prevent it.

Certainly another attack on the scale of 9-11 would risk producing that result, even if al-Qaida had the resources for it. But a simple truck bomb in some U.S. city center a few months before the election, killing just a couple of dozen Americans, could drive voters back into Bush's arms and turn a tight election around. Al-Qaida is clever enough for that.

-----
Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.
While I am sure many of you vehemently disagree with much of this column, I think it raises two points worthy of further discussion:

1. Why did al Qaeda attack the U.S.? What do you think about the author's suggestion that 9/11 was intended to provoke U.S. military action in the Middle East, in order to "drive enough aggrieved Muslims into the arms of the Islamist radicals that their long-stalled revolutions against local regimes finally get off the ground?"

2. Who does al Qaeda support in Campaign 2004? Why? Show your work.

Extra credit: To what extent can al Qaeda influence this election? What methods might they try to use, and do they have the means to execute? (Diebold?)

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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and for the other side


linkage

BIN LADEN'S IRAQ ATTACKS BACKFIRING

large number of Muslim deaths caused by al Qaeda terrorist attacks in Iraq has created p.r. problems for Osama bin Laden, who now appears to be having second thoughts about his holy war against coalition forces there, The Post has learned.
New articles in al Qaeda's biweekly Internet magazine Sawt al-Jihad, or "Voice of Jihad," are urging al Qaeda supporters to stay out of Baghdad and concentrate on hitting U.S. military targets in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain, according to terrorist expert Rita Katz, whose SITE Institute monitors al Qaeda propaganda on the Internet.

"My instructions to the people of the peninsula [Saudi Arabia], young as old, men as women, is to fight Americans in their homes and the people of Yemen should fight the Americans in their bases, battleships and their consulates," wrote an al Qaeda propagandist named Muhammad bin al-Salim in an article titled "Do Not Go To Iraq."

It appears to represent a shift in tactics by bin Laden, who last October reportedly cut back on the material support he gives Taliban renegades in Afghanistan in order to take the fight to coalition forces in post-Saddam Iraq.

Katz and government counter-terror experts believe al Qaeda's campaign inside Iraq has backfired politically on bin Laden and there is growing evidence that the fanatic legion of "foreign fighters" may no longer be welcome in most quarters of Iraq.

"It's clear that the killing of a lot of Muslims in Iraq is something al Qaeda now wants to avoid," Katz said.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Link from a year and a half ago.

As you can see, it wasn't that productive. Too many flag-waving, jingoistic idiots around here. Not that there aren't just as many liberal commie idiots, but hey.

Hey, how's Afghanistan doing these days?

Another very sober cheers,
Nate
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: charrison
and for the other side
[ ... ]
OK, but humor me. I'm not agreeing with the article's conclusions. I do think it raises interesting questions. Rather than our typical partisan back-and-forth, I'd like to hear people's thoughts about those questions.

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Link from a year and a half ago.

As you can see, it wasn't that productive. Too many flag-waving, jingoistic idiots around here. Not that there aren't just as many liberal commie idiots, but hey.

Hey, how's Afghanistan doing these days?

Another very sober cheers,
Nate
I'm naively holding out hope we can do better in P&N. Since this could be a simple intellectual excercise, it doesn't have to become so emotionally charged.

That's the theory, at least.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
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Actually, I do believe the burden of proof is on you.

If you think about it, there really is no need for opinion here from either side. The column states its position as a fact, goes as far as saying that the "point" is an "obvious" one; not that its possible that Al Qaeda could feel this way* or that they would benefit from Bush winning the election*, but simply that "Al-Qaida wants Bush to win next November's presidential election and continue his interventionist policies in the Middle East for another four years, and will act to save Bush from defeat if necessary."

If you could produce specific quotes from members of Al Qaeda conclusively proving this strategy, then I, nor anyone else here, would have any grounds to argue with you. However, without proof, I don't believe you have grounds...

Anyhow, if you'd like to switch topics to either of those that I put an * next to, I'm sure people would be more than happy to go at it ;)
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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0
The article originally posted sounds right on to me. To me, the analyst and the reasoning that Charrison cites sound like it came from the same people who brought us WMDs and Iraqis welcoming us into their country. It was complete nonsense from day 1 that the Iraqis or OBL for that matter hated us because we are a freedom loving people. OBL originally fought on the U.S. side in Afghanistan against the Russians. He tried for years to get the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia after Gulf War I. There has been a tendency to characterize these people as irrational (and stupid) ragheads -- and it just ain't so. These are people who genuinely believe that we are very bad for their society. The "terrorists" do not want to adopt our values and they don't want the other people in their countries to either. As for keeping the country safe, what nonsense. What does it take to drive a pickup truck full of explosives onto a major bridge? Think of the miles and miles of completely unprotected power lines and natural gas pipelines. Child's play really, if they want to do it. Look at what the Washington/Maryland sniper did last year.

This is why I severly ridiculed an article posted a month or so ago about an attack before mid-February. If they wanted to come, they'd come. But, the people who go for this type of thing are the moral equivalent of our fire-breathing, hell and damnation religious people. Neither group of people tends to be very urbane or equiped to do well in a completely alien society.

EDITED: I thought it was pretty well accepted that the soon to be Reagan administration interfered with the hostage release negotiations when the Carter administration was in power. Is this a generally accepted point?
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
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I don't want to get off topic but...
As for keeping the country safe, what nonsense. What does it take to drive a pickup truck full of explosives onto a major bridge? Think of the miles and miles of completely unprotected power lines and natural gas pipelines. Child's play really, if they want to do it. Look at what the Washington/Maryland sniper did last year.
...what do you suggest we do?
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Right, so kill 3,000 of our people and we are supposed to do what exactly? Say "Thank you sir may I have another?" They kill another 3,000 of our people and I am all in favor of turning the Middle East into a god damn parking lot.. these radicals need to be dealt with, and killing is the only language they understand.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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Originally posted by: Crimson
Right, so kill 3,000 of our people and we are supposed to do what exactly? Say "Thank you sir may I have another?" They kill another 3,000 of our people and I am all in favor of turning the Middle East into a god damn parking lot.. these radicals need to be dealt with, and killing is the only language they understand.

Why should we nuke the entire Middle East? That's like saying we should've nuked all of Asia when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Crimson
Right, so kill 3,000 of our people and we are supposed to do what exactly? Say "Thank you sir may I have another?" They kill another 3,000 of our people and I am all in favor of turning the Middle East into a god damn parking lot.. these radicals need to be dealt with, and killing is the only language they understand.

Why should we nuke the entire Middle East? That's like saying we should've nuked all of Asia when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

Because the world would be a better place without them... I'm saying this a little in jest, and a little not. I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.
 

tallest1

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2001
3,474
0
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Crimson
Right, so kill 3,000 of our people and we are supposed to do what exactly? Say "Thank you sir may I have another?" They kill another 3,000 of our people and I am all in favor of turning the Middle East into a god damn parking lot.. these radicals need to be dealt with, and killing is the only language they understand.

Why should we nuke the entire Middle East? That's like saying we should've nuked all of Asia when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

Because the world would be a better place without them... I'm saying this a little in jest, and a little not. I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.

Thats the Us vs. Them mentality thats been getting us into this mess in the first place.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Crimson

Because the world would be a better place without them... I'm saying this a little in jest, and a little not. I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.

Elaborate, please. I'd like to hear the logic behind this line of thinking.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Crimson

Because the world would be a better place without them... I'm saying this a little in jest, and a little not. I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.

Elaborate, please. I'd like to hear the logic behind this line of thinking.

Do you? Frankly, I'd rather he keep his little murderous wet-dreams to himself.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Crimson

Because the world would be a better place without them... I'm saying this a little in jest, and a little not. I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.

Elaborate, please. I'd like to hear the logic behind this line of thinking.

Do you? Frankly, I'd rather he keep his little murderous wet-dreams to himself.

Sometimes the best way to understand someone you disagree with is to listen to their line of logic. I've changed my thinking numerous times because I've asked others to explain their viewpoints. Even if I doubt that I'll change my mind on the issue, it still helps me to further understand where they're coming from.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Crimson

Because the world would be a better place without them... I'm saying this a little in jest, and a little not. I don't think we should arbitrarily kill millions of people.. but if the middle east just suddenly ceased to exist, I don't think many would argue this world wouldn't be a safer place.

Elaborate, please. I'd like to hear the logic behind this line of thinking.

I think the Muslim religion, and the Middle East as a whole are generally filled with backwards thinking, closed minded, hateful people. If they aren't being hateful toward other people, they are slaughtering their own countrymen because of tribal ties, or whatever. If they aren't oppressing people of different tribes, they are oppressing their own women. They are always killing someone it seems for some religious or poltical reason. It seems like the Christian's got over this attitude in the middle ages.

Why do all Middle Eastern countries seem to have problems with terrorism? REAL problems. I mean, I live in the Midwest.. I have Lutherans living next door to me (I am Catholic), down the road is a couple gay guys... a couple houses down is an African American couple... Mexicans, Jews, Asians, etc.. they all live around me. Guess how many times I have been shot at? None. Threatened with violence? Not a single time. How many bombs have went off in my city? None.. ever. How many cars have smashed into a crowded marketplace? Not a single one... suicide bomber? Not a one... Hijacking? Nope. Why is it that Americans can all live together with different beliefs and manage to have very few instances of "hate crimes"? Sure, there are incidents where people kill in the name of hatred and religion in our country, but its relatively rare, and when it does happen the whole country condemns it.

If a Catholic runs over a Lutheran with their car, you do see the Catholics dancing in the streets.. But when terrorists fly planes into our buildings, thats what they do in the Middle East.

Also, why is it that there is not one single democracy in the middle east? Every single country there is run by a dictator or "ruling family"... Like I said, I am not really in favor or murdering millions of people.. but if God suddenly snapped his/her fingers and made the Middle East disapear.. I think we would be a safer world.
 

tallest1

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2001
3,474
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Crimson, I seriously hope you're high on something because those are the words of a backwards thinking, closed minded, hateful bigot.

Edit: Btw, I'm not saying this because I hate you as a person Crimson. Its just that you have your ill will directed toward the wrong people. Islam is as much a religion of peace as Christianity is. Its just that their extremists are a bit more bonkers than our extremists
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Just a small issue here:

even conceding that the terrorist leaders are intelligent people with rational goals

The goals of the terrorists are NOT rational goals; rational individuals do not have goals which involve terrorizing other people. That said, it would be stupid to say that the terrorists are anything less than intelligent, determined, fearsome foes who neither know nor care about the morality of their acts. They do not believe in morality, they believe in their extremist views of their religion and their "god" such as he is, and everyone who disagrees with them is an enemy to not merely disagree with, but to be killed.

Oh, and yes, they DO hate us for our freedom and for our moral position that freedom is RIGHT, make no mistake about it.

Jason
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Just a small issue here:

even conceding that the terrorist leaders are intelligent people with rational goals

The goals of the terrorists are NOT rational goals; rational individuals do not have goals which involve terrorizing other people. That said, it would be stupid to say that the terrorists are anything less than intelligent, determined, fearsome foes who neither know nor care about the morality of their acts. They do not believe in morality, they believe in their extremist views of their religion and their "god" such as he is, and everyone who disagrees with them is an enemy to not merely disagree with, but to be killed.

Oh, and yes, they DO hate us for our freedom and for our moral position that freedom is RIGHT, make no mistake about it.

Jason

I would be interested to hear further words on your thoughts, Jason. What do you mean by "goals which involve terrorizing other people"? Is this saying that their goal is to terrorize other people, or to terrorize other people in order to obtain a goal?
 
Feb 3, 2001
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You bring up some very good questions! I don't suspect that the terror itself is the goal, but the means to an end, though what end they hope to achieve I'm not clear about. What DO they want us to do? Die because we're infidels? Convert to Islam? Take away women's rights? Just leave them alone?

Whatever it is they want us to do, they haven't chosen a wise way to let us know. I would think a video tape from Osama with a clear, concise message to the American people, delivered to the major news outlets, would have been more effective (at LEAST at communication, though I wouldn't guarantee compliance...) method of conveying whatever they hope to convey.

I suppose it's *possible* that their goal is just to make Americans live in daily fear (though the homeland security dept's color codes and diligent work on overriding civil liberties such as privacy rights seems to me a more effective tool...but then, they DID prompt it's creation, didn't they?) but I really don't see the point unless they are simple bullies, which seems unlikely, or at least, really stupid.

What are your thoughts?

Jason
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Gah, I've got a test tomorrow, I'll post something tomorrow afternoon.

Labor alienari agit!

Cheers!
Nate
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
You bring up some very good questions! I don't suspect that the terror itself is the goal, but the means to an end, though what end they hope to achieve I'm not clear about. What DO they want us to do? Die because we're infidels? Convert to Islam? Take away women's rights? Just leave them alone?

Whatever it is they want us to do, they haven't chosen a wise way to let us know. I would think a video tape from Osama with a clear, concise message to the American people, delivered to the major news outlets, would have been more effective (at LEAST at communication, though I wouldn't guarantee compliance...) method of conveying whatever they hope to convey.

I suppose it's *possible* that their goal is just to make Americans live in daily fear (though the homeland security dept's color codes and diligent work on overriding civil liberties such as privacy rights seems to me a more effective tool...but then, they DID prompt it's creation, didn't they?) but I really don't see the point unless they are simple bullies, which seems unlikely, or at least, really stupid.

What are your thoughts?

Jason

Personally, I think their goal is to kill every last American.. if they can't do that (The most likely case is that they could never coordinate such an attack), they will settle for killing as many of us as they can to spread fear.

I think you are entirely correct when you say they have never said what they wanted from us. What are we supposed to do, just roll over, hand them the keys to the United States and praise Allah? Then go out and kill every infidel in his name? Why hasn't Osama said what he wants from us? I think the answer is clear. They want us dead.. and nothing short of that is acceptable.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
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Osama Bin Laden Live from a Cave Somewhere:

...I want to thank mr. Bush personally without him this all would not be possible. Thank god he has forgotten about me, and killed my enemy Mr. Hussein. Thank god if not for him, Iraq would not be on verge of a Islamic revolution. Praise Allah! Thank you for also bankrupting the entire American treasury, and making the entire world hate America more by going into Iraq. I couldn't have planned it better myself. Oh, how do you say it? Mission Accomplished!

Even, if you haven't mentioned me in months Mr. Bush, I still remember you. Praise Allah!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,905
6,788
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Originally posted by: Crimson
Right, so kill 3,000 of our people and we are supposed to do what exactly? Say "Thank you sir may I have another?" They kill another 3,000 of our people and I am all in favor of turning the Middle East into a god damn parking lot.. these radicals need to be dealt with, and killing is the only language they understand.
Actually what you tell us here is that killing is the only language you understand. That's what that comment always means.

Tease a cripple, get hit by a crutch.