AK-47 vs M-16A2 Which is a better weapon? Why?

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BuckNaked

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: glenn1
With an AK, barring your jackass buddy pulling the firing pin out the gun WILL fire. M16? Perhaps.... If its cleaned, polished, has match grade ammo and hasnt been shot once previously to you needing to shoot it

I keep on hearing this over and over again and just haven't seen it to be true in real-life. With the M-16 series rifles, the most common reason for misfire is by far magazine misfeed, with secondary reasons being failure of the extractor to properly grab the rim and eject, stovepiping, and poor ammunition quality causing insufficient gas blowback to cycle the bolt carrier. What is it for the AK-series? The same things. Most military grade individual-served weapons share this characteristic.... the magazine or ammunition feeding system is almost always the weakest link in the weapon system. Neither weapon really has an advantage over the other on any of these counts.

Yes, the Ak-series isbasicallly made from Tonka Toy parts. But that doesn't make it better. The overpowered gas drive mechanism which is the key reason normally cited for the "reliability" of the AK47 doesn't come into play at all for the most part when discussing the most common types of malfunctions. The whole debate about milled vs. stamped vs. machined vs. etc. is a bunch of cr@p. I don't care if a blacksmith made my rifle with his hammer and anvil, it's not going to ensure my magazine isn't going to double-feed my chamber.
Well said...The major downfall of the AR is that the gas system vents directly into the action.... When it was originally fielded in Vietnam, the combination of dirty burning propellents, and the weapon touted as being virtually maintanence free, caused alot of problems in the early days and contributed to the stigma that the weapon was prone to jamming... Still, the weapon needs to be kept clean, but its much more reliable than some would lead you to believe..

The thing that bothers me the most about the AK is the abhorrent selector switch.... the fact that you either need to move your firing hand or support hand to engage or disengage it, that it goes from safe to auto to semi, and its noisy when engaged quickly, can all be fatal in an engagement....

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
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http://www.m-16.us/AK-47vsM-16.htm


and i found this on the web too:p

To give you a little background:

During the Korean war, as study on the effectiveness of body armor was
commissioned and was later known as ALCLAD (sorry, I don't know what that
stands for). On of the factors that became apparent during ALCLAD was that
there had never been a detailed analysis of how hits are incurred in combat.
Careful analysis was made of all casualty reports from WWII and Korea (data
from Vietnam and the Arab-Israeli conflicts was later added and proved the
validity of the model.

Hitchman and the ORO made use of this data for their report . Many of their conclusions were controversial, but to date no one has been able to dispute them scientifically. Most advocates of the full power rifle seem to pretend it [Hitchman's Report] just doesn't exist.

Here are some of the relevant quotes. As the 'Fireside Theater' said,
everything you know is wrong.

Quoting Hitchman (and with my own comments):

"Rifle fire and its effects were deficient in some important military
respects...in combat, hits from bullets are incurred by the body at
random:..the same as for fragment missiles..which are not 'aimed'...Exposure
was the chief factor...aimed or directed fire does not influence the manner
in which hits are sustained...[Despite] evidence of prodigious rifle
ammunition expenditure per hit,..the comparison of hits from bullets with
those of fragments shows that the rifle bullet is not actually better
directed towards vulnerable parts of the body"

If time and degree of exposure was the chief factor in whether a hit was
obtained, what was the point of long range shooting? Further, analysis of actual combat in showed that 90% of all rifle fire occured at 300 yards or less and that 70% occurs at 100 yards or less. Interveneing terrain, camouflage and an inability to adequately identify targets were cited. Indeed, the effectiveness of rifle fire drops rapidly to zero at ranges greater than 300 yards.

The 7.62x51mm seems therefore unnecessarily powerful.

It is certainly worth noting that the Israeli army has selected the 5.56x45mm as their cartridge of choice. This is after they has previously adopted the FAL and the 7.62x51mm. Presumably, the Israeli's know somerthing about desert warfare and yet haven't felt hampered by the choice of the 'inferior' 5.56 round.

Hitchman continues:

"It is interesting..that at all common ranges weapons errors are without
significance in the man-weapon system...the dispersion of the weapon could
be more than double without materially affecting the probability of hitting
the target...weapons-design standards which seek perfection by making the
rifle more accurate (approach zero dispersion)..are not supported by this
analysis as genuine military requirements. Errors in aiming have been found
to be the greatest single factor contributing to the lack of effectiveness
of the man-rifle system...[in combat] men who are graded..as expert riflemen
do not perform satisfactorily at common battle ranges."

"Either a simultaneous [salvo], or a high cyclic rate burst, with the number
of rounds per burst automatically set rather than be dependant on the
trigger release. In the (single barrel burst) design, controlled nutation
[nutate: to nod or droop] of the rifle muzzle would provide the desired shot
dispersion or pattern; in the..(salvo), the scatter would be obtained and
controlled by multiple barrels, a mother-daughter type of projectile, or
projection of missiles in the manner of a shotgun."

Clearly, a high cyclic rate automatic weaopon is to be preferred to maximizing hit probability in real combat. The 7.62x51mm is clearly not a platform the lends itself to controllable, or even useful full automatic fire. Testing of the T47 and T44 rifles (precursors to the M-14) under full automatic fire using 5 round bursts at 6 x 6 foot screens led ORO to report:

"[N]ever did more than one round hit or screen [at 100 yards] from any of the bursts..to obtain more than one strike on the..screen, the range had to be close to 50 yards." Even at this range it was noted that the "..target in front of the screen was not hit more than once from any burst"

As to the effectiveness of the 5.56x45mm, after action studies of casualties in Vietnam showed the 5.56 to be "11% more likely to produce a casualty" than the 7.62x51mm. This is probably due to the nature of the behavior of the projectile. Fackler has covered this in detail:

http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html

The biggest problem with the advocates of long range combat
marksmanship, is that most of them base their theories on their own
experience on the rifle range. There are a few of problems with this.

1) Assuming that ione believes accurate rifles fire is valid (see above) most rifles aren't precise enough to hit anything at that range. If your rifle shoots 1 MOA, your group is 10 inches at 100 yards. The acceptance standard for the M1 Garand and Later M-14 was approximately 5.6 MOA. I don't care how good a marksmen you are, if your rifle shoots 5 MOA, that's a 50 inch spread at 1000 yards. Assuming you've done everything right, you are still probably going to miss. And most people can't see that well at 1000 yard.

2) Most people can't shoot that well. Sadly, nowadays, most soldiers first
experience with a rifle is in basic training. There is no way that a couple
of weeks of training can replace the lifetime of shooting experience we used
to be able to draw upon when much of the US was rural and hunting was
common. Every time I go to the gun club and see people on the 100 yard
range bragging about their 3 or 4 inch group, I just shake my head. Mind
you, that's actually pretty good for the typical rifle. I am so sick of
reading the gun magazines about how every rifle the writer has shoots
sub-MOA groups. That's just pure BS.

3) No one is shooting back at you on the range. The target never moves, Dosn't take cover, isn't camouflaged. Yes, there are people who can shoot out to 1000 yards and hit a man sized target. As long as you give them time and let them concentrate. Try hitting anything when the rounds start coming back your way.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
AR-15 any damn day of the week. My layman reasoning being:

- If you're in a close firefight, putting a couple holes accurately through someone is still more important than scoring a minisculely larger hole.
- At the same time, you have better capabilities at range.
- You take care of your rifle and it'll take care of you.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
5.56mm ammo being against the hague/geneva? convention because of its tumbling/fragmenting behavior does it for me. its better to badly wound the enemy soldiers and force two fo their men to take care of the downed guy.

that or a shotgun, the geneva convention doesn't cover terrorists.
 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
0
0
Originally posted by: bootymac
This will be settled in Desert Combat!

ohhh while your at it.. the server needs the player to download de_dust2 :p

You actually think half the people who stated their opinion even had the real gun in their hands? pfft LOL ;)
 

Originally posted by: KGB
Originally posted by: bootymac
This will be settled in Desert Combat!

ohhh while your at it.. the server needs the player to download de_dust2 :p

You actually think half the people who stated their opinion even had the real gun in their hands? pfft LOL ;)

i do. These CS people need to sit down. A game is no replacment for real life experience.