AIW or VideoCard & TV Tuner?

[nexus09]

I am replacing my current video card which has a tv tuner, and I want to retain TV viewing capability. I'm also on a budget of ~$130 and I need some opinions here. What should I get?
-an AIW card: 8500DV is way too much, bu the 7500 is right at my price limit.
-a Gf4 440MX and a TV Tuner
-a Radeon 9500Pro and a Tv Tuner (this is getting abit high in price)

Also, I couldn't find any reviews of TV Tuners. If you think I should get one, which would you recommend?

 

[Peter]

Separate tuner cards have the advantage that you can keep them when you change graphics card next time.

The drawbacks are: Video data will stream over the PCI and chipset busses onto AGP, that's quite a bit of bandwidth taken - on an AIW, all the traffic is local to the AGP card. And, most importantly, PCI TV card drivers and applications for Windows generally suck beyond description. ATi's AIW software is pretty, stable, and useful. Finally, the ATi TV circuitry has excellent de-interlacing filters that make even horizontally scrolling things like stock tickers nicely readable.

regards, Peter

 

[AnAndAustin]

😉 I'd def rec seperates, it makes no sense to get tied in to having your TV with your gfx card, plus the AIW Rads although great carry a hefty price tag too. Rad7500 is way too under-powered, if you want AIW functionality (not necessarily DV) then either get the Rad8500AIW or wait for the cheaper Rad9000PRO variety which shouldn't be far away. GF4MX are not a wise buy at the mo, not that they're bad, in fact they are better than Rad7500 BUT no where near Rad9000/PRO perf, plus you then get DX8 hw too. For a little more Rad8500 and GF3 cards are still under $100 and 128MB versions should be easy to find. I'd suggest at least Rad9000PRO or pref GF3 or Rad8500 (esp Rad8500) and then buy an add-in PCI TV card. The biggest problem is finding reviews for these bloody things, from what I hear it is only ATI PCI TV cards which you need to steer clear of, if you don't need MPEG2 hw decoding then I can rec Hauppauge WinTV Primio FM PCI, here's 1 consumer review.

 

[rbV5]

I use an AIW 7500 and find it plays ANY of the current games with good framerates and at higher resolutions and IQ, saying they're way too under-powered is an exaggeration, they perform quite well..especially at their pricepoint. The advantage over a seperate tuner and graphics card is price and feature set..you just won't find the same functionality for the same price.

A VIVO card and a VCR tuner makes a reasonable trade-off, lessor multimedia functionality..perhaps more performance.

 

[AnAndAustin]

😱 Sorry rbV5, I didn't mean to knock your card. To say Rad7500 plays "ANY of the current games with good framerates and at higher resolutions and IQ" is stretching it a fair bit really though. In most current games you'd be looking at 800x600 without full details or eye candy, and for the newest games and games due out the Rad7500 will be very unplayable. Not too long ago the Rad8500AIW was pretty pricey while the Rad7500AIW offered very decent perf and was a decent price considering what you got. But now that GF2 type speeds (inc Rad7500 and GF4MX) and feature sets are largely inadequate (certainly not a wise buy IMHO) coupled with how quickly the gfx card market changes it makes a lot of sense, particularly if tying yourself in to an AIW card, to buy a card with a little more lastability. The Rad9000/Pro handles this very well bringing the pretty standard and very worth while DX8 and much better perf than Rad7500 which it will replace at a very similar price point. Rad8500 isn't a whole lot more powerful than Rad9000 (certainly pro) and the Rad9000AIW should make an excellent Rad7500AIW replacement, certainly worth waiting for IMHO.

😉 For those with very tight small budgets, slow CPUs (< 800mhz), very small gaming ambitions etc a Rad7500, GF2GTS/TI or GF4MX offer decent perf for a small price ($60ish). However the next cards up are all under $100 and hugely better esp in the longer term, Rad9000, Rad8500 and GF3 are well worth the extra $30, cheaping out on the gfx card is not a good idea as it tends to be more important than the CPU when it comes to gaming. The Rad7500AIW was great value and is still a great card, just not a very wise new purchase esp with the hugely superior Rad9000 replacing it and the Rad8500 dropping in price all the time.

🙂 A GF4MX with VIVO is another option and faster in 3D than a Rad7500 despite still lacking DX8 but as you rightly say rbV5 it doesn't compare to the likes of an AIW card for functionality. nVidia Personal Cinema gives similar but slightly inferior functionality to an AIW card and should be available with a GF3TI200 or at least GF4MX etc and not the GF2MX400 more often used. GF3's VIVO tends to be a bit of a fudged solution but a GF4MX or GF4TI with VIVO is another alternative, VIVO on these cards is hardly technicly brilliant but it does add very little to the cost. I'd still rec seperates myself giving you much more freedom in gfx card, precisely what is advisable does depend a little upon your CPU.

Pricewatch

AIW/PC/VIVO
Rad7500AIW $125
Rad8500AIW $185
GF4MX440 VIVO $93
GF4MX460 VIVO $114
GF4TI4200 VIVO $137
GF4MX440 Personal Cinema $123 (had a quick look and appears to be a GF2MX400 which you can get with PC for $97)

Seperates
Rad7500 $52
Rad9000 $67
Rad9000Pro $83
Rad8500 $87
GF4MX440 $63
GF3TI200 $81
GF3TI500 $100
GF4TI4200 £119

 

[rbV5]

ANY of the current games with good framerates and at higher resolutions and IQ" is stretching it a fair bit really though

Not true, I happen to own several current games and many of the best games of the past several years, all of which run fine on my rig. Not the highest resolutions,no...not with ALL the eye candy..., but IMHO opinion, folks get so caught up in how something compares to the highest end cards, that they really believe that you just can't play at acceptable framerates with a lessor card. What games have come out that are not playable on a GF2 Ultra? Nothing I've played in the last year...not a single game.

But without giving relative gaming performance desired (or even mentioned) its hard to say, but don't discount the AIW 7500 because its too slow for gaming, its the fastest "fully featured" TV card within his defined budget.

just not a very wise new purchase esp with the hugely superior Rad9000 replacing it and the Rad8500 dropping in price all the time

Apples to Oranges, Hugely superior is BS untill you see an AIW version or at least a VIVO, and you're not going to get an AIW 8500 for $130, not today anyway. You need VIVO for viewing TV, VIVO 8500 and 9000's...show me, adding a crap PCI TV card to one of those is probably going to more expensive and definately less functional. Its all where you're priorities lie.

 

[sniperruff]

most definitely separate vid card and TV tuner
---a good example is to look at the old AIW or the voodoo with TV tuner

when the vid card outdates the Tv tuner is useless

not when you separate then, there maybe some driver issues but it should still work

or just buy the 20inch APEX for soooo cheap and you can watch TV and use computer at same time on separate screens

 

[eaadams]

sniperruff has a good point.
I had a TV tuner for a while then moved and now have my TV in in same room as computer. I must say there is one thing everyone forgets. The quality of stuff with the TV card matters. With a radeon if you get the RF remote that is a HUGE plus. I dont know of any standalone PCI card with a reasonable remote or TV recording features that compare with ATI other than the bundled stuff that comes in Sony VAIO's.

 

[daveqb]

i am looking at the same thing
curently got a GF2 GTS, very happy with, and a AverMedia TV Studio capture card.

havent got TV out with my GTS (limiting my vid edit capabilities) and AverMedia card appears to be limited to 352x288 as max res capture.

was bout to buy a gf4 MX440 for $130 second hand, but then thought i could spend a little more and get a VIVO card.

the cheapest VIVO card i can see is gf4 mx440 VIVO for $226.

what is the capturing like on these ??

then it goes up to ti4200 for $300+

the radeon 7500 VIVO is $350 here in Sydney, so not very viable choice on a small budget.

so a LEadTek mx440 + new capture card for $250
or a LeadTek mx440 VIVO for $226

how are the gf cards for capturing ?? as good as dedicated capture cards ??

 

[shabadoo]

So it boils down to this...
If you are a 3-d gamer, go with seperate cards, else go with top (or near top) of the line aiw card??

I would like a solution that has TIVO capability and capture from an analog camcorder.
tried an aiw radeon earlier this year when changing OS to Win ME. with all non-essential components unplugged I loaded the drivers for the aiw. tried capturing from cable TV and camcorder with terrible results. without exception, every time I used it either the capture or playback application would crash so bad I had to hard-reset.
I don't think I could get another ATI product except from a store with a great return policy (thank you compUSA). I heard recently ATI is farming-out driver development. anyone else hear this?

 

[rbV5]

I heard recently ATI is farming-out driver development. anyone else hear this?

Not true, ATI has a large team of in-house engineers devoloping drivers. The AIW drivers have been solid for some time now, and I've yet to come across a problem that wasn't a simple driver install away from a fully functioning card in over 2 years, several rigs and several AIW cards.

You don't have to give up gaming performance by using an AIW card at all, the general concensus is that if you arent so picky about your multimedia functionality, another card with a seperate capture card is probably acceptable.

 

[AnAndAustin]

😱 I do hear a lot of inacurrate largely unfounded stuff regarding ATI and their drivers. PCI TV cards under WinXP (poss WinME but then what isn't quirky under that horrid OS) are the only ones known to be ridiculously problematic but from what I hear to get general functionality it's only a matter of extracting the driver files yourself rather than using the automatic installer. AIW and ATI's gfx cards have excellent drivers, sure Rad8500 drivers seriously needed optmising upon release and it did take a while for ATI to deliver, Rad9700 is a little quirky but then it is a fundamental completely new card with many new features ... in the case of Rad8500 and Rad9700 it was important to get these cards out ASAP and I don't think they have any worse drivers than any other company, in fact they're a damn site better than either Creative or Epson!

🙁 You do tend to get slightly lower clocks and less o/c'ing headroom in AIW cards but nothing truly significant. The main problems with going AIW is:

1. Rad7500AIW is showing it's age and the hugely better Rad9000AIW will be replacing it at a very similar price point, but the waiting time for it is unknown, IMHO a matter of anything from a few weeks to a few months.

2. Rad8500AIW is an excellent card with great 3D perf and features but the price is perhaps still a little steep, Rad9000 (esp PRO) will be nearly as powerful but should be a whole lot cheaper.

3. Whatever AIW card you buy you are tying yourself in to the 3D engine it uses and when the time comes to upgrade you are basicly throwing away a perfectly good TV tuner etc.

😉 In terms of features and usability the AIW cards are king, nVidia's Personal Cinema isn't a whole lot worse but does tend to be coupled with GF2MX400, even a GF4MX wouldn't be a great PS option, you'd really be looking at a GF3 card to give similar perf to the Rad8500AIW. GF4TI cards have about the best lastability and great price/perf and VIVO comes at very little cost giving you basic functionality. A seperate PCI card will give you a lot more freedom in the 3D card you choose and you can keep it even when your gfx card has become out-dated, it's just a little difficult knowing which PCI card to go for, but until Rad9000AIW comes out I would go GF VIVO or for seperates.

 

[rbV5]

You do tend to get slightly lower clocks and less o/c'ing headroom in AIW cards but nothing truly significant

Fact is, an AIW performs on a par with its non AIW version provided they are fit with same ram, ONLY the 7500 does not have a model clocked the same, the original AIW radeon was clocked the same and performed virtually the same, the 8500 128 AIW is also clocked the same and performs on a par with 8500.

Rad7500AIW is showing it's age

Perhaps, but the multimedia functions are the same as the newest AIW, and after running the new UT2003 Demo, also shows its still plenty viable as a gaming card, and will be for some time.

Rad9000AIW will be replacing it at a very similar price point, but the waiting time for it is unknown, IMHO a matter of anything from a few weeks to a few months.

Or......Monday?
I think you're speculating heavily that a new AIW card will come in at $125(price of an AIW 7500) That would be half the price that any AIW Radeon ever launched at, we'll soon see.
AIW is the top of the heap, no other combination of cards or personal cinema will deliver the same functionality or overall quality that you will get with an AIW...period. The features work, the drivers are mature and the quality is top. Gaming performance runs the gamut, pay for your performance level is all. The AIW 8500 128 will play any game with great framerates untill the next variant comes along, even the 7500 is plenty good today.

 

[AnAndAustin]

😀 Cool. IIRC the Rad8500AIW-DV does have lower clocks than the standard Rad8500, I thought the Rad8500AIW cards did too, in any case I've certainly heard that the AIW cards don't o/c as well regardless of using the same core or RAM (if they do), most likely all the added chips, timing issues etc on the board. In any case the AIW cards are fantastic and the Rad8500AIW is certainly a great card, as you say the Rad9000AIW may never surface but I think it's certainly more likely than not.

😱 Even the Rad7500 (faster clocked than the Rad7500AIW) can play UT2003 providing you are happy with 800x600 with no eye candy and lower detail settings. It does depend upon which sources you use and what settings the reviewers use but a Rad7500 with an XP2100+ can only achieve 32 AVERAGE FPS even at 800x600, at 1024x768 this drops to 15 AVERAGE FPS. In UT2003 the Rad7500 and even to a large extent the Rad8500 gain nothing when going from a CPU at 800mhz to 1.7ghz (AthlonXP2100+), not good news for users with medium to fast CPUs or those thinking of upgrading in the life of their AIW card. Check it out for a good idea how the Rad7500 perfs in a few diff games and what effect a faster CPU has on the perf. Source

😉 I still say (as I always have) the AIW cards are pretty much un-rivaled and excellent if you want or need maximum features etc ... but I'd still buy seperates myself, otherwise wait to see if a Rad9000AIW does emerge. To each their own, we all have our own budgets, preferences and requirements after all.