Airmen denied reenlistment for refusing to swear an oath to God

[mnewsham]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/articl...denied-reenlistment-refusing-say-help-me-God-


Looks like air force are being technically correct in enforcing this rule, however the rule itself should be changed by congress to avoid these situations in the future.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yep. The AF has no discretion in the matter so they aren't at fault. Gotta love unintended consequences overriding sense.

 

[Paratus]

Yep. The AF has no discretion in the matter so they aren't at fault. Gotta love unintended consequences overriding sense.

I'm not sure this is an unintended consequence. Having a non-believer swear to god or keep them out of the air force seems to be the reason behind this change.

 

[inachu]

Sounds like the same moment in similar situation in full metal jacket.

DS: YOU DO BELIEVE IN THE VIRGIN MARY DON'T YOU?!?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYxEIyNA_mk

 

[Rakehellion]

I'm not sure this is an unintended consequence. Having a non-believer swear to god or keep them out of the air force seems to be the reason behind this change.

It sounds pretty intentional.

 

[mnewsham]

I'm not sure this is an unintended consequence. Having a non-believer swear to god or keep them out of the air force seems to be the reason behind this change.

Though the air force is technically correct in enforcing it, Congress should just change the rule for all armed services so that the air force can't use/abuse that particular part which is obviously verging on unconstitutional.

 

[Newell Steamer]

If you are willing to lose your life for me, you can believe (or not believe) in whatever the fuck you want.

Heck, you can even do whatever you want (with a consenting adult) in the privacy of your own home.

Hey, get this one,.. I think you should even be allowed to speak, when asked, about what you believe in and do with your life - and, hold on now,.. not be punished for it!!

 

[nehalem256]

“The government cannot compel a nonbeliever to take an oath that affirms the existence of a supreme being,”

How does asking for help from a supreme being you believe is non-existent affirm the existence of said supreme being?

Sounds to me like he is just a butt-hurt atheist.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not sure this is an unintended consequence. Having a non-believer swear to god or keep them out of the air force seems to be the reason behind this change.

Perhaps it is, however many oaths have an affirmation "escape clause". Since you are attributing to malice that which can be explained by ignorance I think you'd have to show some evidence for that statement. If there is I'd like to see it and I'll say up front if that is the case then I'm against the motivation.

 

[The Merg]

Yeah, it looks like Congress screwed the pooch here. It doesn't say, but I wonder who pushed to have the oath requirement changed that took away the exception clause.

- Merg

 

[xBiffx]

Really? How is this even close to verging on unconstitutional?

It's a volunteer service, you either take the oath or you don't. When you don't, you aren't volunteering now are you? Now if they made draftees take it, then you might have a case. People volunteer for many things. It's a take it or leave it proposition every time.

Whiny atheist.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

How does asking for help from a supreme being you believe is non-existent affirm the existence of said supreme being?

Sounds to me like he is just a butt-hurt atheist.

Riiiight. And if it were a case of requiring someone to praise Allah I'm sure all those in support wouldn't alter their positions at all.

 

[xBiffx]

Riiiight. And if it were a case of requiring someone to praise Allah I'm sure all those in support wouldn't alter their positions at all.

Allah is specific to one religion. God is not. Muslims still worship God so requiring them to say this part of the oath isn't asking much.

 

[nehalem256]

Really? How is this even close to verging on unconstitutional?

It's a volunteer service, you either take the oath or you don't. When you don't, you aren't volunteering now are you? Now if they made draftees take it, then you might have a case. People volunteer for many things. It's a take it or leave it proposition every time.

I don't think the issue is so much that it is voluntary to serve in the military

The issue is that the oath doesn't require the affirmation of belief in a higher power. It merely makes mention of one.

Whiny atheist.

Yep. Why is it even worth his time to complain?:hmm:

 

[nehalem256]

Riiiight. And if it were a case of requiring someone to praise Allah I'm sure all those in support wouldn't alter their positions at all.

Please point out the praise required in the oath?

Also, considering that the complainer is an atheist and therefore believes God to not exist.

Perhaps we should change it to something like. So help me "Magic Puffy Cloudy" instead of Allah. Since from the perspective of an atheist there should be no real difference between the statements:

"So help my God" and "So help me Magic Puffy Cloud".

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Really? How is this even close to verging on unconstitutional?

It's a volunteer service, you either take the oath or you don't. When you don't, you aren't volunteering now are you? Now if they made draftees take it, then you might have a case.

Whether it's volunteer or coerced service the government is using religion for the purpose of exclusion of employment and that is not supposed to be the case. Let's take an extreme hypothetical to illustrate the point.

Suppose a highly paid position is available in DC for some civilian office. The condition is you convert to Islam. Well you don't have to take the job, but you can bet people would be crying about it, not saying anything about volunteer service.

Conversion too much? How about "There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God." It's just words after all.

Edit: I see you locked on to specifics. OK, how about "Pick a god to swear on" You must choose one or many, but none is not an option. I don't think so.

 

[xBiffx]

Whether it's volunteer or coerced service the government is using religion for the purpose of exclusion of employment and that is not supposed to be the case. Let's take an extreme hypothetical to illustrate the point.

Suppose a highly paid position is available in DC for some civilian office. The condition is you convert to Islam. Well you don't have to take the job, but you can bet people would be crying about it, not saying anything about volunteer service.

Conversion too much? How about "There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God." It's just words after all.

Your analogy is way off base. No one is asking anyone to convert. They are asked to make a simple statement. Anyone not believing in God should have no issue with said statement because its meaningless to them. They only take issue because they are whiny bitches.

Secondly, its volunteer, you do it, or you don't. No one is forcing anything except the volunteer. There's a whole lot more degrading shit in the military than this simple statement. No one is asking for that to change anytime soon.

Again, Muhammad and Allah refer to one religion. God encompasses all religion. Atheist are essentially making a statement about something they think is imaginary, so big deal.

 

[Sonikku]

The war on Christians continues.

 

[xBiffx]

The war on Christians continues.

Actually, you've got it backwards since it appears only believers get to join in the war games. :whiste:

 

[nehalem256]

I wonder if the guy has ever used the phrase "God damn it".

Because apparently by his own logic then he would already be "affirming" the existence of God

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Your analogy is way off base. No one is asking anyone to convert. They are asked to make a simple statement. Anyone not believing in God should have no issue with said statement because its meaningless to them. They only take issue because they are whiny bitches.

Secondly, its volunteer, you do it, or you don't. No one is forcing anything except the volunteer. There's a whole lot more degrading shit in the military than this simple statement. No one is asking for that to change anytime soon.

Again, Muhammad and Allah refer to one religion. God encompasses all religion. Atheist are essentially making a statement about something they think is imaginary, so big deal.

It's no big deal to you, however a litmus test to exclude from employment those who do not embrace any deity can hardly been considered Constitutional, and that, not the specifics or god or gods involved is the real issue. You don't have to like anyone's views, but you either respect the Constitution and the rights derived from it or not. I choose to do so.

 

[nehalem256]

It's no big deal to you, however a litmus test to exclude from employment those who do not embrace any deity can hardly been considered Constitutional, and that, not the specifics or god or gods involved is the real issue. You don't have to like anyone's views, but you either respect the Constitution and the rights derived from it or not. I choose to do so.

Apparently the only "litmus test" here though is to exclude whiny assholes who take issue with saying something which according to them is meaningless.

As "whiny asshole" is not a protected class no rights have been violated.

 

[xBiffx]

It's no big deal to you, however a litmus test to exclude from employment those who do not embrace any deity can hardly been considered Constitutional, and that, not the specifics or god or gods involved is not. You don't have to like anyone's views, but you either respect the Constitution and the rights derived from it or not. I choose to do so.

The statement isn't excluding them from employment. The volunteer is making a choice which is excluding them from employment.

The constitution says nothing about God, it says establishment of religion. Mentioning God doesn't have anything to do specifically with establishment of religion.

 

[The Merg]

Your analogy is way off base. No one is asking anyone to convert. They are asked to make a simple statement. Anyone not believing in God should have no issue with said statement because its meaningless to them. They only take issue because they are whiny bitches.

Secondly, its volunteer, you do it, or you don't. No one is forcing anything except the volunteer. There's a whole lot more degrading shit in the military than this simple statement. No one is asking for that to change anytime soon.

Again, Muhammad and Allah refer to one religion. God encompasses all religion. Atheist are essentially making a statement about something they think is imaginary, so big deal.

The government is supposed to have no say in what people want to believe in when it comes to religion. And God does not encompass all religion. Depending on how someone that is Hindu looks at their religion, they do not have a God. Someone that is Buddhist does not necessarily believe in a God. If someone is an Atheist, they believe that there is no higher power. As the Air Force is a government entity, if someone does not want to swear to God, they should not have to.

Until 2013, there was an exception clause for these conditions. I wonder why that changed.

- Merg

 

[MrCassdin]

So we're asking the USAF to break the law basically. I read that only Congress can change the oath and service members must by law take the oath. So basically USAF is bound by the law, and it wouldn't matter of the contract said "I swear to the purple people eater" they would still have to enforce it because it's the law.

Outrage not found.