Airforce or Navy?

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: TheeeChosenOne

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Hee hee - according to the results of the most recent DOD Status of Forces survey, taken in 2002, Air Force members express the highest satisfaction of all service members. Only the Army's enlisted force reported nearly an across-the-board drop in satisfaction with service life since the last study (in 1999), most sharply with unit morale, training and professional development, off-duty education and military values, lifestyle and traditions. Air Force personnel consistently expressed the highest amount of satisfaction. In areas except for training and unit morale, Marines were least satisfied, even less so than soldiers. But unlike soldiers, Marine satisfaction levels overall had not dropped since 1999.

Personally, I'd advise anyone to opt OUT of a military career. Even a state job gives a higher quality of life than *any* military lifestyle can offer.

Then why the hell are you here, advising on the differences between the services? Obviously you do not believe in service.

You may have sour grapes about your experience, but nearly everyone I know in the service who decides to stay in past the first enlistment, on the enlisted side, or who decides to accept a commission in the first place, loves the service and is happy to be there. For my part, I deliberately entered the service after graduating law school - I could readily have made $100K plus as a civilian, but wanted to serve as a JAG instead. I respect that you no longer want to be in the service, but don't come here and try to spread your own bitterness to people who are genuinely interested in serving.

For what it's worth, I have no problem with state jobs either - my mother has been a judge for nearly 20 years, and I have nothing but respect for her and other public servants. I resent your implication that the military and government jobs are something to be settled for.

You never answered me - how long were you in the service, and what was the highest rank you held?

 

[ROTC1983]

Originally posted by: TheeeChosenOne

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Hee hee - according to the results of the most recent DOD Status of Forces survey, taken in 2002, Air Force members express the highest satisfaction of all service members. Only the Army's enlisted force reported nearly an across-the-board drop in satisfaction with service life since the last study (in 1999), most sharply with unit morale, training and professional development, off-duty education and military values, lifestyle and traditions. Air Force personnel consistently expressed the highest amount of satisfaction. In areas except for training and unit morale, Marines were least satisfied, even less so than soldiers. But unlike soldiers, Marine satisfaction levels overall had not dropped since 1999.

Personally, I'd advise anyone to opt OUT of a military career. Even a state job gives a higher quality of life than *any* military lifestyle can offer.

You don't join the military for the *best* lifestyle out there. You do it to protect your country...

 

[FreshPrince]

Do you know why Navy men write their names on their underwear?
















so that they'd know who they're F@$%ing

got this joke from co-worker (air force)

 

[jteef]

The book I just finished reading "Every Man a Tiger" by Chuck Horner & Tom Clancy indicated that it is extremely rare for a non-pilot to get promoted to O-7. There was only one person in the book that was a non pilot at that level and he was a WSO, who are the guys that have the 2nd most knowledge about what it takes to accomplish missions and win wars in the AF.

Getting to O-6 as a non pilot is easier, but still very rare. My recruiter told me that if I played my cards right as an engineer I could hope to be an O-5 one day, but beyond that would require an extremely exceptional career. They really like pilots and put them in charge of almost everything because the whole goal of the AF is supporting the air mission and pilots are the ones who know best what other pilots need and can use to do the job better.

JAG might be different, since a pilot doesn't really have much to contribute to this. Looking at the demographics, there are 118 O-6's out of 960 JAG's. So I would suspect that if you were willing to put in the time, O-6 would be reasonable. But at that level, a private law firm is going to pay a LOT better than the military and the 3 grand / month you're gonna get for your 20 isn't gonna mean a whole lot. I doubt there are more than 1 or 2 O-7s or higher here.

Moral of the story, don't plan on Colonel in the Air Force unless you're a pilot, lawyer, or oddly a dentist

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

I agree with Jteef.
=============

Aside from that, in my experience, sadly, *most* Jags I've met were from 3rd rate law schools. Sure, if one can't get a corporate law job, it's better to opt into the AF or military for some relative status, rather than being some lowly paid Public Defender or ambulance chaser. Thus, realistically speaking, Jags really don't have many options. Any other opinion is just merely propaganda and ultimately being disingenuous with themselves--which people do very easily with themselves nowadays.

Doctors, who are even more marketable and desired, are largely a group that only opt into the military to pay their mounting medical school debts. Once the debt is gone, they are out of there. Their OTC is a joke compared to regular OTC, b/c the AF doesn't want high attrition with their "golden" children. Talk about career discrimination here.

In the flight ranks, the AF was having touble keeping their "Godly" pilots happy, since many were going to commercial airlines. I guess the lifestyle going civilian was much better, *despite* the fact they were true Gods in the AF. The ones that stay do it for service & country, but most would get out anyways. Nowadays, of course, with the economy in the toilet, AF pilots will stay put.....until the next economic boom.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Dude, Coast Guard.

 

[Sluggo]

My brother in law (who is in the Navy) has told us that his last few cruises, that the ports of call were extremely limited as compared to what they used to be.

With the rise in terrorism, they dont like to have Navy ships sitting in ports as much as they used too, just too easy a target. This may just be the carriers they dont want sitting around, but I would think that it would apply to all the ships.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: TheeeChosenOne
I agree with Jtef.
=============

Aside from that, in my experience, *most* Jags I've met were from 3rd rate law schools. Sure, if one can't get a corporate law job, it's better to opt in the AF or military for some relative status, rather than being some lowly paid Public Defender or ambulance chaser. Thus, realistically speaking, Jags don't really don't have many options. Any other opinion is just merely propaganda and being disingenuous with themselves--which people do very easily with themselves.

Doctors, who are even more marketable and desired, also only opt into the military to pay their mounting medical school debts. Once the debt is gone, they are out of there. Their OTC is a joke compared to regular OTC, b/c the AF doesn't want high attrition with their "golden" children. Talk about career discrimination here.

In the flight ranks, the AF was having touble keeping their "Godly" pilots happy, since many were going to commercial airlines. I guess the lifestyle going civilian was much better, *despite* the fact they were Gods in the AF. The ones that stay do it for service & country, but most would get out. Nowadays, of course, with the economy in the toilet, pilots will stay put.....until the next economic boom.

I am very wary of even responding to this, since you obviously have a chip on your shoulder, not to mention the fact that you have not answered my questions, which I have asked three times, in regard to the duration of your career and your highest rank achieved. You have yet to comment on the Status of Forces survey I mentioned (which is based directly on polling actual military members), and instead prefer to "agree with" another person's reading of a book co-written by Tom Clancy, who is not even a veteran, much less an Air Force veteran.

There are certainly JAGs that went to mediocre law schools, but I know at least three that went to Harvard. I myself went to UC-Hastings, a top tier law school (the ranking has fluctuated between 20th and 40th in the country since I enrolled). My two closest friends in the JAG Dept went to Syracuse and UW-Madison, also top tier schools. The average salary out of my law school on graduation is over $100K - obviously I chose to make less. I do not appreciate your willfully insulting comments, which appear to be made out of ignorance and motivated by a desire to insult. How many JAGs have you actually met? Something tells me it is fewer than I have.

I will not deign to comment on what motivates military physicians, since I am not one. I will say that they receive professional pay bonuses and other incentives to stay in the service.

I find it comical that you barely even seem to consider the idea that anyone would be in the service for any reason other than money, which is in my experience a secondary issue for most officers, most of whom could make more on the outside. Something tells me you were never an officer, but please feel free to disabuse me of this notion if I am wrong.

So, for the last time, how long were you in the service, what was your highest rank, and what is your educational background (since you implicitly sniped at mine, I have a BA in psychology from UW-Madison and a JD from UC-Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco)? Oh, and how old are you?

I will not keep arguing with you publicly - don't bother responding unless you enable PMs.

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

I'm trying not to be facetious. I give you the benefit of the doubt. And based on my experiences in the AF it's largely the *exact opposite* of what you say.

Like peacocks spreading their wings, people try make a point by exaggerating their position to publicly make a *!!!* and *legitimize* their current condition of being "satisfied/happy" when all they want to do in reality is exasperatingly seek something better--if it were only available. This is a natural human condition, but becomes exhausting when people delude themselves tirelessly.

The *truth* hurts as they say and delusion is part and parcel of coping with an unsavory situation.

=====================================
BTW, I went to a TOP college/grad school, and all I got was dismay by military higher ups as to why someone of my "caliber" would enroll in the military (I actually got *asked* this question to my dismay

). It actually got *quite* annoying. They truly treated me uniquely, even though it was unwarranted at the time. Even my first assigment was unique, as I was an XO for a highly decorated military personality.

In my ROTC program, I was the only one from my school to enroll. All others came from other small local schools. It actually surprised me at the time that I was the *only* one. Other students from my college were also equally dismayed why I'd go military considering the formidable options that lay before us.
======================================
I applaud anyone who wants to go military if it's for the **right** reasons. Kids, however, do it for a college degree and skills. That may be good and all, but can become dangerous if that person is sent to war, even though that was *hopefully* not the original intention. AND IF THIS IS THE CASE, THERE ARE *BETTER* OPTIONS to achieve that end goal.

That's the NO BS truth and not delusional *propaganda.*

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

You certainly talk a big game, but I am curious why you are so evasive about answering what I regard as simple questions. For that matter, what did you study in graduate school? Is English a second language for you, by any chance? I don't mean this to sound belittling, but your reading comprehension and grammar are not what I would associate with a person who attended a "TOP" grad school.

The "peacock" phenomenon to which you refer is certainly human nature - do a Google search on Leon Festinger's "A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance." That said, physician, heal thyself! While I readily admit that I may be biased to support my own decisions in life (as is every other person), you are delusional to the extent that you don't see the same phenomenon in yourself.

Again, please enable PM if you want to discuss this further. This thread has long since degenerated into a pointless debate, and you don't seem willing to listen and answer questions. As such, I have pretty well reached the end of my attention span.

 

[jteef]

reading of a book co-written by Tom Clancy, who is not even a veteran, much less an Air Force veteran.

just a little fyi, that part of the book was in fact Horners words, not Clancy's

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: jteef

reading of a book co-written by Tom Clancy, who is not even a veteran, much less an Air Force veteran.

just a little fyi, that part of the book was in fact Horners words, not Clancy's

Fair enough, and I did not mean to rope you in for criticism. It is true that there is a bias toward pilots in terms of who is being promoted to flag positions, but I think this is changing over time. I know I have worked for two different generals who were not flyers. One, Lt Gen Michael Zettler, comes from a maintenance background, and now wears three stars and is Deputy Chief of Staff for Installations and Logistics.

In my view, promotion to flag officer slots is a bit of a silly basis for comparing one service to another - as a practical matter none of the services promote a whole lot of folks to O-7 and above, and without friends in high places the odds of becoming a general are virtually nil. I would be perfectly happy to retire as a Colonel (or a Lt Col for that matter).

 

[Spoooon]

My dad joined the Air Force as an enlisted man. He did his 20 and retired as a Senior Master Sergeant. During his time, he made tons of friends, with both officers and enlisted men. When he was stationed at Ramstein the base commander invited him over for Thanksgiving and lent him his Porshe to toy around with on the autobahn.

 

[jteef]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: jteef

reading of a book co-written by Tom Clancy, who is not even a veteran, much less an Air Force veteran.

just a little fyi, that part of the book was in fact Horners words, not Clancy's

Fair enough, and I did not mean to rope you in for criticism. It is true that there is a bias toward pilots in terms of who is being promoted to flag positions, but I think this is changing over time. I know I have worked for two different generals who were not flyers. One, Lt Gen Michael Zettler, comes from a maintenance background, and now wears three stars and is Deputy Chief of Staff for Installations and Logistics.

In my view, promotion to flag officer slots is a bit of a silly basis for comparing one service to another - as a practical matter none of the services promote a whole lot of folks to O-7 and above, and without friends in high places the odds of becoming a general are virtually nil. I would be perfectly happy to retire as a Colonel (or a Lt Col for that matter).

I agree

 

[Workin']

The original question was whether to ENLIST in the Air Force or Navy - What the hell do the chances of becoming a flag officer have to do with that?

All I know was that I was a "lowly" E-5 in the Air Force, promoted just before I reluctantly separated at the end of my 4 year hitch (RIF complications...). I knew a at least 6 soldiers or sailors who wanted to become airmen - and absoultely ZERO airmen who wanted to become soldiers or sailors. I was always treated with the utmost of respect, both personally and professionally, by both enlisted and commisioned personnel. That's a lot more than I can say for some civilian jobs I have held.

When I was in the Air Force, we used to say that the other brances treat their officers like the Air Force treats their enlisted, and the other brances treat their enlisted like the Air Force treats their prisoners!

Someone said in an earlier post that the majority of people who join for educational benefits don't ever crack a book. That may be true in some career fields. However, that was not my experience. I'd estimate that 75% of the airmen in my squadron were actively pursuing college degrees.

Just a few more random thoughts...

 

[compudog]

My uncle was in the Navy and loved it. Got to see the world, got to work with all sorts of aircraft, and got a great job when he left military service.

 

[RossGr]

Really the choice between AF and Navy is a personal one, different strokes for different folks. YOU must make the choise based on YOUR prefrences.

Up thread someone commented that the AF had more technical oportunities, this cannot be correct. I cannot think of a SINGLE AF technology that is not also present in the Navy. But how many Nuclear plant operators does the AF have? The Navy has ALL of the aviation oportunites plus the need to maintain and operate the ships, this is a huge field of oportunity and tecnology not available in the AF.

 

[AnimeKnight]

Originally posted by: RossGr
Really the choice between AF and Navy is a personal one, different strokes for different folks. YOU must make the choise based on YOUR prefrences.

Up thread someone commented that the AF had more technical oportunities, this cannot be correct. I cannot think of a SINGLE AF technology that is not also present in the Navy. But how many Nuclear plant operators does the AF have? The Navy has ALL of the aviation oportunites plus the need to maintain and operate the ships, this is a huge field of oportunity and tecnology not available in the AF.

I can think of one AF technology.. Aerospace.. their space program

 

[SlowSS]

Originally posted by: AnimeKnight

Originally posted by: RossGr
Really the choice between AF and Navy is a personal one, different strokes for different folks. YOU must make the choise based on YOUR prefrences.

Up thread someone commented that the AF had more technical oportunities, this cannot be correct. I cannot think of a SINGLE AF technology that is not also present in the Navy. But how many Nuclear plant operators does the AF have? The Navy has ALL of the aviation oportunites plus the need to maintain and operate the ships, this is a huge field of oportunity and tecnology not available in the AF.

I can think of one AF technology.. Aerospace.. their space program

Ummm, selected Navy pilots also participate in space program.

Each branch provides certain advantages and disadvantages. Like mentioned, it is all about personal preference and skills that you want to acquire.

Talk to each recruiter and have them explain their programs thoroughly, make sure you clearly know and understand what is that you exactly want to do.

Good luck to you.

 

MARINES YOU PUSSY!

 

[911paramedic]

They all have their advantages/disadvantages.




<---Navy vet

 

[keystroker]

i'm a u.s. army national guard sapper. if i did it again i would've gone air force, although i like the army very much! i had the hardest boot camp for all 12b combat engineers its cool to know i accomplished that. it wasn't that hard, mostly mental. go air force.

 

[Workin']

Ummm, selected Navy pilots also participate in space program

Yeah, but the Navy doesn't launch or manage satellites (but they DO have rockets).

Like others have said, it's a matter of preference. Although I think the Navy would be boring being stuck on a ship with no land in sight for a large majority of your time.

And the Village People never wrote a song about the Air Force

 

[jteef]

Like others have said, it's a matter of preference. Although I think the Navy would be boring being stuck on a ship with no land in sight for a large majority of your time.

maybe it would be alright if you were in the carribean or south pacific. definitely not the arctic though.

 

[SlowSS]

Originally posted by: Workin'

Ummm, selected Navy pilots also participate in space program

Yeah, but the Navy doesn't launch or manage satellites (but they DO have rockets).

Like others have said, it's a matter of preference. Although I think the Navy would be boring being stuck on a ship with no land in sight for a large majority of your time.

And the Village People never wrote a song about the Air Force

You obviously don't know too much about the Navy.

You don't just sit on your ass and do nothing while floating, you work your ass off.

I KNOW this because I've spent 21 years in the Navy.