Airbus A320 crashes in French Alps

[Caravaggio]

Remember the good ol' days before SSRIs, when depressed people never committed suicide?

Get a grip. SSRIs help millions of people.

Ban stuff! Ban it right away, because of one terrifying thing that has happened! *

*Does not include guns, because, well, just because.

I think you are the one who needs to get a tighter 'grip' old friend.

My post was about aviation medicine and the desirability of screening pilots with incipient psychiatric illness.

Your reply concerned the possible benefits of SSRI's in the general population.

For some reason, entirely of your own imagining, you assume that I am in favour of unrestricted access to firearms. I am not.

 

[DCal430]

Perhaps we need an armed air marshal on each flight with an override code.

 

[crashtech]

And then someday a deranged air marshal will bring down a plane, and we'll need someone to watch over all the air marshals.

 

[Subyman]

I'm not understanding what nickqt is going on about. People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society, but should not be piloting aircrafts. Its not about SSRI's specifically, its about the reason they are on those in the first place. A person with a history of mental health issues or someone that is presently medicating a mental health issue should not be behind the controls of an airplane.

Not that hard to understand.

 

[Caravaggio]

He flunked out of the Corporate training program due to his depression making him unfit to fly, then he spends 18 months getting cleaned up and somehow they stamp the paperwork fit to fly.

I suspect someone gave him a pass. You see it in companies all the time, the one fuckup who gets the pass because he is connected to someone.

When I first saw that post I thought you were being over-cynical. I'm starting to think you might be right.
We now know he was treated for suicidal thoughts BEFORE training. I am assuming that he concealed that from his company FME? If not, then Lufthansa will be paying-out zillions and 'German Wings' will be a dead brand.

I was always surprised that Lubwitz, a pilot from his teens, still had only 630 hours, PIC, at time of death, aged 27. That is a snail's pace accumulation for a professional pilot. Given that 500 would be a basic minimum, pre-company.
I note that his family paid for his pre-company training hours. He seems to have been a hobby pilot who could not contemplate any other sort of work.
The rules will soon be changed...

 

[nickqt]

I'm not understanding what nickqt is going on about. People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society, but should not be piloting aircrafts. Its not about SSRI's specifically, its about the reason they are on those in the first place. A person with a history of mental health issues or someone that is presently medicating a mental health issue should not be behind the controls of an airplane.

Not that hard to understand.

I'm not understanding what others and you are going on about.

People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society as they do and have already done.

Whether the person is taking a SSRI or not doesn't make them a danger all of a sudden.

I know context is a real summabitch when there are ten+ pages of posts, but I am specifically addressing people here who think that somehow SSRI drugs made this happen.

Hint: SSRIs are given to someone because there's already an issue.

Unfortunately on this here forum, most people skip context and just lash out with a "you're the dumbest person I've ever spoken to because I disagree with what you said, why are you such an idiot, kill yourself".

I have no issue with an airline not allowing someone with depression from flying a jet. My issue is with people jumping on SSRIs as if they're some new whacho drug that just got released and are causing a whole slew of suicides where people murder others as they take themselves out. They aren't. Literally millions of people take SSRIs for various issues, and not all of them are depression.

 

[DCal430]

Banning people diagnosed with anxiety disorder from flying, only discourages would be pilots from seeking help from these problems. It doesn't make us safer, it makes us less safe.

 

[DCal430]

This is why most countries including the U.S allow people on SSRI to fly, because banning it has proven to be less safe, and only prevents treatment.

 

[crashtech]

There are many proven treatment regimens for depression that do not include the use of SSRIs.

 

[DCal430]

When I first saw that post I thought you were being over-cynical. I'm starting to think you might be right.
We now know he was treated for suicidal thoughts BEFORE training. I am assuming that he concealed that from his company FME? If not, then Lufthansa will be paying-out zillions and 'German Wings' will be a dead brand.

I was always surprised that Lubwitz, a pilot from his teens, still had only 630 hours, PIC, at time of death, aged 27. That is a snail's pace accumulation for a professional pilot. Given that 500 would be a basic minimum, pre-company.
I note that his family paid for his pre-company training hours. He seems to have been a hobby pilot who could not contemplate any other sort of work.
The rules will soon be changed...

Lubitz had 0 hours before he joined them. He worked for them before he got his pilots license, and only had his pilots license for 2 years.

Before this he only had a student license since 2010, a glider license before that.

He was transfered by them to fly the A320 the same year he received his private pilots license.

 

[werepossum]

And then someday a deranged air marshal will bring down a plane, and we'll need someone to watch over all the air marshals.

lol Air marshal marshals.

Eventually we'll need to build bigger planes so that we can actually fit in some passengers.

I'm not understanding what others and you are going on about.

People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society as they do and have already done.

Whether the person is taking a SSRI or not doesn't make them a danger all of a sudden.

I know context is a real summabitch when there are ten+ pages of posts, but I am specifically addressing people here who think that somehow SSRI drugs made this happen.

Hint: SSRIs are given to someone because there's already an issue.

Unfortunately on this here forum, most people skip context and just lash out with a "you're the dumbest person I've ever spoken to because I disagree with what you said, why are you such an idiot, kill yourself".

I have no issue with an airline not allowing someone with depression from flying a jet. My issue is with people jumping on SSRIs as if they're some new whacho drug that just got released and are causing a whole slew of suicides where people murder others as they take themselves out. They aren't. Literally millions of people take SSRIs for various issues, and not all of them are depression.

I'm not taking a side on SSRIs since I literally know next to nothing about them, but good post.

 

[Caravaggio]

Lubitz had 0 hours before he joined them. He worked for them before he got his pilots license, and only had his pilots license for 2 years.

Before this he only had a student license since 2010, a glider license before that.

He was transfered by them to fly the A320 the same year he received his private pilots license.

Are you a pilot of any sort?

A proportion of hours gained P1 on a glider count towards a private pilot conversion, which in turn count towards hours needed for CPL. Lubwitz did not go to Lufthansa in Bremen with "0 hours". That's nonsense. That would imply he had never logged his flying time.

You seem to be saying that Lufthansa knowingly accepted a student with no valid flying experience and suicidal ideation for an extremely expensive and demanding course of tuition.

That is vanishingly improbable.

I assume the licence you refer to is his commercial licence?
In order to achieve this qualification he would need several hundred flying hours. If we subtract those from his total time then he was a remarkably inactive professional pilot for those two 'professional pilot' years.

 

[DCal430]

According to the FAA he did NOT have an FAA commercial license only a private license for gliders and small single engine planes. 2012 is when he obtained a private FAA license, which is when he completed flight training school. Not sure if he had a european commercial license, I assume he did.

 

[5150Joker]

I'm not understanding what nickqt is going on about. People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society, but should not be piloting aircrafts. Its not about SSRI's specifically, its about the reason they are on those in the first place. A person with a history of mental health issues or someone that is presently medicating a mental health issue should not be behind the controls of an airplane.

Not that hard to understand.

Agreed, getting on an airplane is nerve racking enough for some of us and we don't need or want to wonder if the pilot has a psychiatric history. They can do plenty of other jobs, just don't fly planes.

 

[Subyman]

I'm not understanding what others and you are going on about.

People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society as they do and have already done.

Whether the person is taking a SSRI or not doesn't make them a danger all of a sudden.

I know context is a real summabitch when there are ten+ pages of posts, but I am specifically addressing people here who think that somehow SSRI drugs made this happen.

Hint: SSRIs are given to someone because there's already an issue.

Unfortunately on this here forum, most people skip context and just lash out with a "you're the dumbest person I've ever spoken to because I disagree with what you said, why are you such an idiot, kill yourself".

I have no issue with an airline not allowing someone with depression from flying a jet. My issue is with people jumping on SSRIs as if they're some new whacho drug that just got released and are causing a whole slew of suicides where people murder others as they take themselves out. They aren't. Literally millions of people take SSRIs for various issues, and not all of them are depression.

Gotcha. I wouldn't want anyone with questionable mental stability piloting the plane I'm on. Anyone taking SSRIs aren't fit to fly, due to being diagnosed with some condition needing SSRIs. It may not be the drug specifically, but its whatever they are dealing with that needs the drugs.

I'm not quite understanding your defense of SSRIs while flying. Someone in a good mental state would never take them, so that point is moot. You say there are some reasons to take them other than mental health issues? What would that be? I've never heard of someone taking them for non-mental issues.

EDIT: Doing a quick search shows the only other condition that they would be used for that wouldn't possibly affect the flight is premature ejaculation.

 

[DCal430]

Did you know the FAA used to ban people with depression and anxiety from obtaining a pilots license. This ban was removed a few years ago though. The reason was because it was proven such a ban actually increases the risk of accidents as it discourages people from seeking help. This is the same reason that few countries still ban it, because it was shown to significantly increase risk, and not decrease risk.

 

[Darwin333]

I'm not understanding what others and you are going on about.

People with mental health issues can manage just fine in society as they do and have already done.

Whether the person is taking a SSRI or not doesn't make them a danger all of a sudden.

I know context is a real summabitch when there are ten+ pages of posts, but I am specifically addressing people here who think that somehow SSRI drugs made this happen.

Hint: SSRIs are given to someone because there's already an issue.

Unfortunately on this here forum, most people skip context and just lash out with a "you're the dumbest person I've ever spoken to because I disagree with what you said, why are you such an idiot, kill yourself".

I have no issue with an airline not allowing someone with depression from flying a jet. My issue is with people jumping on SSRIs as if they're some new whacho drug that just got released and are causing a whole slew of suicides where people murder others as they take themselves out. They aren't. Literally millions of people take SSRIs for various issues, and not all of them are depression.

He did make a valid point about the copilot potentially forgetting his SSRIs at home. Those things have really nasty physical withdrawals (I've seen it claimed as worse than heroin), combined the physical withdrawals to whatever mental issues that might pop up from him not taking his meds for a week (or whatever) and that's not a guy I want flying any plane I'm on.

 

[Darwin333]

Gotcha. I wouldn't want anyone with questionable mental stability piloting the plane I'm on. Anyone taking SSRIs aren't fit to fly, due to being diagnosed with some condition needing SSRIs. It may not be the drug specifically, but its whatever they are dealing with that needs the drugs.

I'm not quite understanding your defense of SSRIs while flying. Someone in a good mental state would never take them, so that point is moot. You say there are some reasons to take them other than mental health issues? What would that be? I've never heard of someone taking them for non-mental issues.

EDIT: Doing a quick search shows the only other condition that they would be used for that wouldn't possibly affect the flight is premature ejaculation.

I was prescribed Cymbalta, which is some form of an SSRI, for chronic back pain (bum disk that they can't fix). It worked fairly decent at dulling the pain but I didn't like the side effects so I tapered off and quit taking them.

I am 90% sure that it wasn't an "off label" use of the drug either.

Edit: Yup, here ya go bud

http://www.webmd.com/pain-managemen...ves-cymbalta-for-chronic-musculoskeletal-pain

Edit 2: Evidently it has an extra letter in it so it isn't just an SSRI, it is a selective serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor antidepressant (SSNRI). I don't know if that changes the conversation or not. I'll let someone more knowladgable describe what the N in SSNRI is.

 

[nickqt]

I was prescribed Cymbalta, which is some form of an SSRI, for chronic back pain (bum disk that they can't fix). It worked fairly decent at dulling the pain but I didn't like the side effects so I tapered off and quit taking them.

I am 90% sure that it wasn't an "off label" use of the drug either.

Edit: Yup, here ya go bud

http://www.webmd.com/pain-managemen...ves-cymbalta-for-chronic-musculoskeletal-pain

Edit 2: Evidently it has an extra letter in it so it isn't just an SSRI, it is a selective serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor antidepressant (SSNRI). I don't know if that changes the conversation or not. I'll let someone more knowladgable describe what the N in SSNRI is.

Norepinephrine is just a neurotransmitter (NT) similar to serotonin in its effects.

They inhibit the reuptake and destruction of the NTs (by cellular enzymes), as people who take them generally have less of the NTs than the normal person walking around. So, they stop the destruction of the NTs, allowing the person to function "better", potential adverse effects aside.

 

[nickqt]

He did make a valid point about the copilot potentially forgetting his SSRIs at home. Those things have really nasty physical withdrawals (I've seen it claimed as worse than heroin), combined the physical withdrawals to whatever mental issues that might pop up from him not taking his meds for a week (or whatever) and that's not a guy I want flying any plane I'm on.

Oh, absolutely. They generally take a bit to "kick in", and you don't want to just stop taking them unless a doctor tells you to. But, this only bolsters what I'm saying. It isn't the SSRIs causing the problem. Underlying history of severe depression, with no SSRIs, is the issue here.

 

[touchstone]

Ok, so if they release the tapes how many of you guys would listen to it? 5 minutes of a plane full of terrified people from all over the world, who know they are about to die. That sounds like possibly the most terrible audio recording ever made and probably substantially worse than whatever they got in the Challenger disaster while the crew capsule fell to earth.


5 minutes is a long, long time.

 

[touchstone]

You know I've always thought, with the state of video and audio recording tech we should be able to get a slow motion replay of every crash with multiple angles and sensors for a pretty minimal investment. Whomever makes these sh*tbox 'black boxes' that fall apart and are apparently still disk based (what?) is making an F'ing killing and giving us pretty sh*t data. One microphone? Or maybe two? I bet every one of those passengers iphones have 10x the info that stupid data recorder kept.

 

[RampantAndroid]

You know I've always thought, with the state of video and audio recording tech we should be able to get a slow motion replay of every crash with multiple angles and sensors for a pretty minimal investment. Whomever makes these sh*tbox 'black boxes' that fall apart and are apparently still disk based (what?) is making an F'ing killing and giving us pretty sh*t data. One microphone? Or maybe two? I bet every one of those passengers iphones have 10x the info that stupid data recorder kept.

And I bet every one of those iphones burned or was shattered. Think about this, for a second: the plane hit at over 400mph. The box has to be self contained, watertight, have a beacon built in to it AND a battery to power said beacon that can withstand an impact of that scale. I suspect they're using older drives still because...well, it's a known quantity. You don't change what is currently working without being darn sure what you're moving to is at least equal to or better than (by enough to justify the cost.) Many of these black boxes are likely there since the plane was made. The fact that anything survived that crash is...amazing. I don't think you realize the scale of the impact.

And if you think this plane had it bad, I suggest you go look up JAL 123.

 

[Subyman]

Did you know the FAA used to ban people with depression and anxiety from obtaining a pilots license. This ban was removed a few years ago though. The reason was because it was proven such a ban actually increases the risk of accidents as it discourages people from seeking help. This is the same reason that few countries still ban it, because it was shown to significantly increase risk, and not decrease risk.

You may fly if you had a history of depression, but can show you are no longer having any issues. They do make exemptions for PPL (private, not commercial) to fly with SSRIs, but you have to show you've been on them a year without any issues. It is not cut and dry.

FAA is very strict, my uncle almost lost his PPL due to blood pressure testing. Had to show improvement within the next medical or he'd lose the license. I am glad they are pretty strict with the requirements. No room for error in the skies.

 

[Subyman]

I was prescribed Cymbalta, which is some form of an SSRI, for chronic back pain (bum disk that they can't fix). It worked fairly decent at dulling the pain but I didn't like the side effects so I tapered off and quit taking them.

I am 90% sure that it wasn't an "off label" use of the drug either.

Edit: Yup, here ya go bud

http://www.webmd.com/pain-managemen...ves-cymbalta-for-chronic-musculoskeletal-pain

Edit 2: Evidently it has an extra letter in it so it isn't just an SSRI, it is a selective serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor antidepressant (SSNRI). I don't know if that changes the conversation or not. I'll let someone more knowladgable describe what the N in SSNRI is.

Curious if chronic pain would be a red flag for the medical test for a commercial pilots license?