Ah, in Saudi Arabia punishment applies to victim of rape.

[Throckmorton]

But their Founding Fathers were Muslim and their laws are based on Islam! </fundamentalist bull>

This is exactly why laws must be based on reason not religion! "Secular" is NOT a bad word.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Narmer
So she knowingly broke the law and expects special treatment?

AHAHAHAHAHA

Just what I'd expect out of you, Narmer.

I asked an honest question and this is your reply? I have no opinion of their laws and justice system. However, this is the equivalent of a woman walking down the street naked (against the law) and ends up getting raped (also against the law). The men were punished, why should she be any different?

Fuckin' retarded. But I guess we needed someone to play devil's advocate. You fit the role perfectly.

 

[ranmaniac]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: markgm
If women dressed modestly this kind of stuff wouldn't happen. I think it should be 300 lashes.

I once got into an extremely serious argument about that with a couple of door-to-door preachers around here. It ended with me telling a couple of middle-aged men to, "Get the fuck off my property!"

It pisses me off that someone would actually believe (and propagate) that kind of bullshit.

Saudi Arabia - words can't describe how fucked up their legal system is. It's one of the most outlandishly racist countries in the world. Their courts/police see only two kinds of people:
1. Saudi
2. Non-Saudi subhuman waste of space

I was only 12 when we moved from there back to India; I've only heard of a few shitty incidents but it's enough to paint a sad picture. Being Muslim wins you no points if you are a 'brown Indian stealing our jobs'.

I wonder what it was like for Non-Muslim folks who ever had to deal with the judiciary system. :thumbsdown:

Yep, they treat non-Saudis pretty bad, although I think they treat white people better than Indians in that country, but don't quote me on that. They don't allow Saudi women to be flight attendants on their airlines, so they hire Filipinos etc.
I know my dad experienced discrimination there, even though he has a PhD in Chemical Engineering, and is a top expert in his field, but because he's Pakistani, he was basically treated like a second class citizen.

Also, it's better to hire a Saudi driver than to rent a car, cause if you get into an accident with a Saudi, regardless of who's fault, a non-Saudi would be found liable.

 

[Vich]

Originally posted by: Narmer
So she knowingly broke the law and expects special treatment?

Show me evidence that she WILLINGLY went into a car with another man? The men had gang rape on their minds. It isn't to far off to think they kidnapped her too.

They know the repercussions of adultery in Saudi Arabia. If it was consensual between 1 man and 1 women, this story wouldn't be here. But it is here because she got GANG raped.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: markgm
If women dressed modestly this kind of stuff wouldn't happen. I think it should be 300 lashes.

That's true. I bet she flashed an ankle or something. She was asking for it.

 

[imported_LoKe]

As far as I can tell, she's not being charged for being the victim of rape, but rather for breaking the laws in the first place. It's like...if a woman is robbing a bank and some guys decide to rape her after she has done it, she's not going to be acquitted on charges of robbery.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: daveymark
she was wearing a really short burqa, so she was asking for it

Text

LOL. They should call them mini-burqa's.

Burqinis imo

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: daveymark
she was wearing a really short burqa, so she was asking for it

Text

:laugh:

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: LoKe
As far as I can tell, she's not being charged for being the victim of rape, but rather for breaking the laws in the first place. It's like...if a woman is robbing a bank and some guys decide to rape her after she has done it, she's not going to be acquitted on charges of robbery.

Correct. The problem is that most people (especially those reading these forums) do not agree with the law she is being charged with. Furthermore, it is a relatively minor law that is commonly broken. It is more comparable to say a women smoking pot who is raped. Furthermore, she would not be charged with a crime in many countries because charging someone with a crime in cases like this only serves to discourage others from reporting a crime in the future. Keep in mind, if a woman ends up being raped under full Sharia law, she is guaranteed to be committing a crime.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: LoKe
As far as I can tell, she's not being charged for being the victim of rape, but rather for breaking the laws in the first place. It's like...if a woman is robbing a bank and some guys decide to rape her after she has done it, she's not going to be acquitted on charges of robbery.

Correct. The problem is that most people (especially those reading these forums) do not agree with the law she is being charged with. Furthermore, it is a relatively minor law that is commonly broken. It is more comparable to say a women smoking pot who is raped. Furthermore, she would not be charged with a crime in many countries because charging someone with a crime in cases like this only serves to discourage others from reporting a crime in the future. Keep in mind, if a woman ends up being raped under full Sharia law, she is guaranteed to be committing a crime.

What?

I was following you until then. So let's say this woman was not breaking any laws and she gets raped. She is committing a crime for being raped? I can't wrap my brain around that.

 

[Narmer]

That lady never claimed she was kidnapped. I can only assume she went willingly.

 

[magomago]

There are two things here that should be brought up - which a few of you did

1) What she was punished for
2) The actions that followed through later

She wasn't punished for being raped- read the article and she was punished for the following:

a) Being in a car with an unrelated male
b) Trying to influence the court case through use of the media

The first law just screams of classic Saudi idoicy. Don't blind yourself thinking it has anything to do with Islam, it doesn't. There is nothing in the Quran (is there even in the hadith?!?!edit : actually I can now think of instances where it says to avoid being alone with people of the opposite sex if you aren't related to them. Obviously getting raped is part of that worry, although even within a family it can happen. That said - each situation is different and we clearly can't apply it the same in every situation especially in cases like business, or meetings, etc.) that should restrict this at all, absolutely nothing. Its just the classical male dominated chauvinist Saudis trying to force their viewpoint on their own population. In almost every single other country (maybe some of the conservative emirates of UAE are like this as well) there isn't this stupid restriction. What you are dealing with is not Islam, it is "Saudism"

The second sounds like a wonderful totalitarian system. The government increased punishment because it doesn't want information to spread around. Again - to call out religion would be wrong...its a totalitarian system pure and simple. Remember - the Saudis were never elected to power by any of the arabs there...they were effectively put in and gained their security and power through a deal with the good ol USA who promised to help "preserve" their power so as long as we got oil out of it.

The actions that followed through was rape. She was not punished for being raped- the men who raped her are being punished for it. Quite a few years (IMO if it was my choice in CLEAR cases where it is rape I would have very little sympathy for men , especially in a gang rape...) are given to them. Best case scenario is they serve out the entire sentence, worst case is they are quietly let out after a month and a half. It is about what people get here (at least for Cali)
http://answers.yahoo.com/quest...=20071111172035AALVKdK

Assuming no aggravating factors (e.g., use of a firearm, infliction of injury, prior convictions)

The maximum sentence for forcible rape is eight years in prison.

The maximum sentence for child molestation is eight years in prison.

The maximum sentence for unlawful sexual intercourse at those ages is four years in prison.

You cannot just add these all together. It is unlikely that a 261.5 sentence could be made consecutive to either of the other offenses. If the two other offenses were ordered to be served consecutively, the maximum term would be ten years in prison.

* 1 day ago

Source(s):
30+ years as a criminal defense attorney.

I would hope that no one here has sympathy for the men. I would also hope that everyone agrees those laws are pretty stupid and should not exist - they are clearly chauvinist towards women and express the current highly totalitarian system of the Saud regime. But we shouldn't make the mistake to mix this with the religion, because that just creates more problems and mis understanding

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Narmer
That lady never claimed she was kidnapped. I can only assume she went willingly.

That gives NO right to being raped. You can't, for a second, imply that she is asking to be willingly raped.

Imagine a situation where I offer a friend in a class a ride somewhere, and she is a female. Instead of taking her where she needs to go (lack of car, no right to right) I rape her instead. Are you going to audaciously claim she invited the situation?

We are ultimately speculating on the situation as to what happened. But regardless of how she ended up getting in the car where she was raped, I see no reason how "entering the car willingly" and "getting raped" should be connected.

If you aren't attempting to imply a connection to the two - then nevermind. Then it just comes down on whether or not the law is just.

 

[LEDominator]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: markgm
If women dressed modestly this kind of stuff wouldn't happen. I think it should be 300 lashes.

I once got into an extremely serious argument about that with a couple of door-to-door preachers around here. It ended with me telling a couple of middle-aged men to, "Get the fuck off my property!"

It pisses me off that someone would actually believe (and propagate) that kind of bullshit.

Saudi Arabia - words can't describe how fucked up their legal system is. It's one of the most outlandishly racist countries in the world. Their courts/police see only two kinds of people:
1. Saudi
2. Non-Saudi subhuman waste of space

I was only 12 when we moved from there back to India; I've only heard of a few shitty incidents but it's enough to paint a sad picture. Being Muslim wins you no points if you are a 'brown Indian stealing our jobs'.

I wonder what it was like for Non-Muslim folks who ever had to deal with the judiciary system. :thumbsdown:

Are you seriously still a muslim after all that kind of crap?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Narmer
That lady never claimed she was kidnapped. I can only assume she went willingly.

So what. whats your point? she went willingly so getting gang raped was her fault? attitudes like yours is exactly what is wrong with the ME and why it will never come out of the stone age.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: LEDominator

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: markgm
If women dressed modestly this kind of stuff wouldn't happen. I think it should be 300 lashes.

I once got into an extremely serious argument about that with a couple of door-to-door preachers around here. It ended with me telling a couple of middle-aged men to, "Get the fuck off my property!"

It pisses me off that someone would actually believe (and propagate) that kind of bullshit.

Saudi Arabia - words can't describe how fucked up their legal system is. It's one of the most outlandishly racist countries in the world. Their courts/police see only two kinds of people:
1. Saudi
2. Non-Saudi subhuman waste of space

I was only 12 when we moved from there back to India; I've only heard of a few shitty incidents but it's enough to paint a sad picture. Being Muslim wins you no points if you are a 'brown Indian stealing our jobs'.

I wonder what it was like for Non-Muslim folks who ever had to deal with the judiciary system. :thumbsdown:

Are you seriously still a muslim after all that kind of crap?

There are thousands of bad followers of any belief system, including atheists. That doesn't invalidate the belief system, it just shows how hypocritical people can be.

 

[theprodigalrebel]

Originally posted by: LEDominator
Are you seriously still a muslim after all that kind of crap?

I like Islam - I don't like its torch-bearers.

(Kinda like what Gandhi said - I like your Christ but I don't like your Christians. Christians are so unlike their Christ.)

 

[LEDominator]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: LEDominator
Are you seriously still a muslim after all that kind of crap?

I like Islam - I don't like its torch-bearers.

(Kinda like what Gandhi said - I like your Christ but I don't like your Christians. Christians are so unlike their Christ.)

touche

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: LEDominator

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: markgm
If women dressed modestly this kind of stuff wouldn't happen. I think it should be 300 lashes.

I once got into an extremely serious argument about that with a couple of door-to-door preachers around here. It ended with me telling a couple of middle-aged men to, "Get the fuck off my property!"

It pisses me off that someone would actually believe (and propagate) that kind of bullshit.

Saudi Arabia - words can't describe how fucked up their legal system is. It's one of the most outlandishly racist countries in the world. Their courts/police see only two kinds of people:
1. Saudi
2. Non-Saudi subhuman waste of space

I was only 12 when we moved from there back to India; I've only heard of a few shitty incidents but it's enough to paint a sad picture. Being Muslim wins you no points if you are a 'brown Indian stealing our jobs'.

I wonder what it was like for Non-Muslim folks who ever had to deal with the judiciary system. :thumbsdown:

Are you seriously still a muslim after all that kind of crap?

Just because some jackasses call themselves muslims and treat other muslims like crap doesn't mean "you change your religion".

As for what he said - SA is VERRRRY racist. I have a friend of Pakistani descent with family in Saudi Arabia, and despite being Muslim they are still viewed upon VERY racistly. IIRC, they might come here for college because they can't go there in Saudi Arabia.

It has NOTHING to do with religion.

 

[LEDominator]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: LEDominator

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: markgm
If women dressed modestly this kind of stuff wouldn't happen. I think it should be 300 lashes.

I once got into an extremely serious argument about that with a couple of door-to-door preachers around here. It ended with me telling a couple of middle-aged men to, "Get the fuck off my property!"

It pisses me off that someone would actually believe (and propagate) that kind of bullshit.

Saudi Arabia - words can't describe how fucked up their legal system is. It's one of the most outlandishly racist countries in the world. Their courts/police see only two kinds of people:
1. Saudi
2. Non-Saudi subhuman waste of space

I was only 12 when we moved from there back to India; I've only heard of a few shitty incidents but it's enough to paint a sad picture. Being Muslim wins you no points if you are a 'brown Indian stealing our jobs'.

I wonder what it was like for Non-Muslim folks who ever had to deal with the judiciary system. :thumbsdown:

Are you seriously still a muslim after all that kind of crap?

Just because some jackasses call themselves muslims and treat other muslims like crap doesn't mean "you change your religion".

As for what he said - SA is VERRRRY racist. I have a friend of Pakistani descent with family in Saudi Arabia, and despite being Muslim they are still viewed upon VERY racistly. IIRC, they might come here for college because they can't go there in Saudi Arabia.

It has NOTHING to do with religion.

Well, it is true the impetus is on people to act one way or another, however religious beliefs do influence your views on the world (regardless of which religion you are, I am making a general statement)

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Fuckin' retarded. But I guess we needed someone to play devil's advocate. You fit the role perfectly.

I believe you meant "Devil's Idiot". Same number of syllables, anyone could make that mistake

I'm not sure why anyone is particularly surprised that it's Narmer. It's almost always Narmer.

 

[Aimster]

This is Saudi Law. Not Islamic Law.

She was found guilty of:
"being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape"

In Saudi Arabia women are slaves. They can't even drive. They also wear towels over their face.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: LEDominator
Well, it is true the impetus is on people to act one way or another, however religious beliefs do influence your views on the world (regardless of which religion you are, I am making a general statement)

Somehow I doubt Saudi Arabia is mentioned explicitly in the Koran. Much like the US isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite how some American Christians act.

 

[LEDominator]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: LEDominator
Well, it is true the impetus is on people to act one way or another, however religious beliefs do influence your views on the world (regardless of which religion you are, I am making a general statement)

Somehow I doubt Saudi Arabia is mentioned explicitly in the Koran. Much like the US isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite how some American Christians act.

I am not meaning to suggest that Saudi Arabia is mentioned. However, there are ideas contained within the Koran that dictate law, such as Sharia in SA, which influence people's views. Thus similarly, you get the attitudes of some Christians in the US who want to influence things in light of their views.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: magomago
There are two things here that should be brought up - which a few of you did

1) What she was punished for
2) The actions that followed through later

She wasn't punished for being raped- read the article and she was punished for the following:

a) Being in a car with an unrelated male
b) Trying to influence the court case through use of the media

The first law just screams of classic Saudi idoicy. Don't blind yourself thinking it has anything to do with Islam, it doesn't. There is nothing in the Quran (is there even in the hadith?!?!edit : actually I can now think of instances where it says to avoid being alone with people of the opposite sex if you aren't related to them. Obviously getting raped is part of that worry, although even within a family it can happen. That said - each situation is different and we clearly can't apply it the same in every situation especially in cases like business, or meetings, etc.) that should restrict this at all, absolutely nothing. Its just the classical male dominated chauvinist Saudis trying to force their viewpoint on their own population. In almost every single other country (maybe some of the conservative emirates of UAE are like this as well) there isn't this stupid restriction. What you are dealing with is not Islam, it is "Saudism"

The second sounds like a wonderful totalitarian system. The government increased punishment because it doesn't want information to spread around. Again - to call out religion would be wrong...its a totalitarian system pure and simple. Remember - the Saudis were never elected to power by any of the arabs there...they were effectively put in and gained their security and power through a deal with the good ol USA who promised to help "preserve" their power so as long as we got oil out of it.

The actions that followed through was rape. She was not punished for being raped- the men who raped her are being punished for it. Quite a few years (IMO if it was my choice in CLEAR cases where it is rape I would have very little sympathy for men , especially in a gang rape...) are given to them. Best case scenario is they serve out the entire sentence, worst case is they are quietly let out after a month and a half. It is about what people get here (at least for Cali)
http://answers.yahoo.com/quest...=20071111172035AALVKdK

Assuming no aggravating factors (e.g., use of a firearm, infliction of injury, prior convictions)

The maximum sentence for forcible rape is eight years in prison.

The maximum sentence for child molestation is eight years in prison.

The maximum sentence for unlawful sexual intercourse at those ages is four years in prison.

You cannot just add these all together. It is unlikely that a 261.5 sentence could be made consecutive to either of the other offenses. If the two other offenses were ordered to be served consecutively, the maximum term would be ten years in prison.

* 1 day ago

Source(s):
30+ years as a criminal defense attorney.

I would hope that no one here has sympathy for the men. I would also hope that everyone agrees those laws are pretty stupid and should not exist - they are clearly chauvinist towards women and express the current highly totalitarian system of the Saud regime. But we shouldn't make the mistake to mix this with the religion, because that just creates more problems and mis understanding

I think you hit it right on the nail. This really has nothing to do with Islam as a whole, so people, don't generalize so easily.