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After the 360

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Text

t's almost two years to the day since Microsoft launched the Xbox 360. So you would expect its successor to be well on its way towards fruition. But Microsoft has dropped only a few subtle hints about what form it could take, and hasn't provided any details.

The most significant statement so far has been about timeframe. Supposedly, the next generation Xbox will arrive next decade, possibly 2011 or 2012.

Microsoft wants as long as possible to recoup the $1.26 billion it spent developing the Xbox 360.

With such a long wait ahead, we've taken it upon ourselves to jump in the Tech.co.uk time machine and dialled in 2011, to give you a sneak peek of what you should expect from the next Xbox. Some have already named the 360's successor as the 'Xbox 720'. But we shall be referring to it as the 'Xbox 2011', to commemorate its likely year of arrival.

Putting the clocks back

To start off, let's take a look at how the Xbox 360 leapt ahead of its predecessor, and what that could mean for the Xbox 2011. The CPU clock speed quadrupled between the Xbox and Xbox 360, so that might imply that the 2011 CPU would be running at 12GHz.

But Intel is claiming its 32nm Sandy Bridge architecture will arrive at 4GHz in 2010, and clock speeds for the top desktop CPUs have remained steady at around 3GHz since the tail end of 2003. So we can't see a console processor hitting 12GHz, even in 2011. The core clock would well be a fairly minor leap forward - it could be running at just 5GHz.

Core blimey!

One thing the Xbox 2011 CPU will have, however, is processing cores - lots of them. The Xbox had one core, and the 360 has three. Looking at current trends, we predict there will be at least eight processing cores in the next version, possibly as many as 16 - and there could even be up to 32. After all, desktop PC chips with eight cores are due at the end of 2008 in the shape of Intel's Nehalem architecture.

Something similar is likely to happen to the graphics acceleration. It is rumoured that AMD/ATI's forthcoming R700 architecture will offer up to eight GPU cores for the highest-end products, and that's due in 2008. Intel's Larabee graphics project also aims to be many-cored.

On the other hand, the Xbox 360's graphics run at only twice the clockspeed of the original Xbox's. So we could be seeing consoles in 2011 with lots of little graphics cores, perhaps as many as 64. But each one might only be running at a speed of 2GHz or even less.

All of these cores could well be part of one single chip, too. Both Intel and AMD are planning to integrate graphics onto their CPUs around the beginning of 2009. By 2011 this idea could be well established. There's even some talk of Microsoft designing its own chips, although there are very few details of this.

RAMming it home

Where today's premium PCs are sporting 2GB of memory, with 512MB more lined up on the graphics card, the Xbox360 only has 512MB shared across both CPU and GPU. A console needs to be much more affordable for the mass market.

Since we expect the console's operating system to be a 64-bit environment, memory in excess of 4GB would be perfectly feasible. But we suspect the amount of RAM will remain well behind desktop PCs, for cost reasons - maybe just 8GB?

The Xbox 2011 will probably continue with a shared memory architecture, particularly if the processing chip incorporates both CPU and GPU cores. So it will use GDDR graphics memory instead of desktop PC's DDR. GDDR benefits from a much more frequent update cycle than DDR - it's already on its fifth generation, where DDR is only on its third.

Power to the virtual people

The Xbox 360 has 115.2 GFLOPS floating point performance, 100 times the original Xbox, and can process 500 million polygons a second - five times its predecessor. With its plethora of cores, the Xbox 2011 could have 100 times more GLOPS again - maybe 10 TFLOPs, not far off supercomputer status. Its multiple graphics cores will allow it to process and texture many millions of polygons a second.

So what will all this processing power actually be doing? Obviously, graphics will become still closer to cinematic photorealism ( Project Gotham Racing 8 will be indistinguishable from TV race coverage; Call of Duty 8 will be shocking). But multiple cores will enable lots of other cool new capabilities too.

There is already talk of a camera with the ability to sense motion, and maybe voice activation. So you will be able to control your game character using gestures, and converse with NPCs using your own voice, giving commands or engaging in realistic dialogue.

This is just the start. Hardware physics processing is already finding its way onto the PC, either using a dedicated chip or borrowed GPU power. This will play a big part in future console games.

But the extra CPUs could also be called upon for more complex AI tasks - something the Halo series has become famous for. So Xbox 2011 games are likely to offer much more realistic NPC behaviour. The next console generation will be both a very good virtual companion, and a much more dangerous enemy.


Disc jockeys

Something that could be very different in 2011 is the mode of game delivery. Online game purchasing (like Valve's Steam) is still in its infancy, and current next-gen consoles are sticking primarily with discs for games. PlayStation 3 uses Blu-ray, and you can get an HD DVD drive for the Xbox 360, so these options are likely to remain on their successors, if only for backwards compatibility.

But the chances are that the next consoles will be very much network-connected devices, something Microsoft has pioneered with Xbox LIVE.

So the Xbox 2011 will more than likely come with a big hard disk - or even gigabytes of Flash storage - and your games will download straight onto this. It'll destroy the second-hand trade-in market, of course. But maybe we'll all be selling our electronic license keys on eBay instead!

Our prediction for the next Xbox is...

So here's the bottom line for the Xbox in 2011, based on current trends and what we know is happening over the next few years. Check back here in 2011 to see if we were right!

* CPU/GPU - Integrated chip with 16 x 5GHz processor cores, 32 x 2GHz graphics cores
* Memory - 8GB GDDR8
* Media - Dual-format HD-DVD/Blu-ray drive for backwards compatibility and movies
* Storage - 4TB hard disk for online game (and movie) delivery
* Built-in camera - for gesture-based control
* Built-in microphone - for voice-recognised control
 
current next-gen consoles

Are you kidding me? Even an article talking about *real* next-gen systems refers to the Xbox 360/PS3/Wii as next-gen. Ugh...

Forgive me, it's been a growing pet peeve of mine... but this is IDIOCY!
 
PlayStation 3 uses Blu-ray, and you can get an HD DVD drive for the Xbox 360, so these options are likely to remain on their successors, if only for backwards compatibility.

The HD-DVD add-on is nothing but an accessory, as the name implies, so I doubt Microsoft will be concerned with supporting this out of the box. I can see Sony wanting to keep Blu-Ray for the Playstation 4 to play Playstation 3 games, but given what we're currently seeing with backwards compatibility, I wouldn't be surprised if it was completely absent.

Of course, a lot of this depends on what happens with the current state of HD disc media. Who knows which format (if any) will be around in 2011?
 
Originally posted by: R Nilla
PlayStation 3 uses Blu-ray, and you can get an HD DVD drive for the Xbox 360, so these options are likely to remain on their successors, if only for backwards compatibility.

The HD-DVD add-on is nothing but an accessory, as the name implies, so I doubt Microsoft will be concerned with supporting this out of the box. I can see Sony wanting to keep Blu-Ray for the Playstation 4 to play Playstation 3 games, but given what we're currently seeing with backwards compatibility, I wouldn't be surprised if it was completely absent.

Of course, a lot of this depends on what happens with the current state of HD disc media. Who knows which format (if any) will be around in 2011?

They're not going to support it for movie purposes, but more for disc capacity. (Although it'll be an added bonus of course for movies) The DVD9 limit is going to be pushed within the next year on the 360. (If it's not already) It's unfathomable that MS will not support a higher disc capacity format. HD-DVD and/or BR (depending on which one wins by then) will be supported out of the box, no question. (Or some other disk format)
 
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
It's unfathomable that MS will not support a higher disc capacity format. HD-DVD and/or BR (depending on which one wins by then) will be supported out of the box, no question. (Or some other disk format)

I don't see this happening at all. Will it be a huge problem a couple of years down the road? Most likely. But the disc format will not change....it can't! By introducing a new disc format, they introduce basically a new console. Developers will not like the idea of coding and producing two different versions.

Just put it this way, if Microsoft (or any other console manufacturer) changes something significant enough to where you need to be cognizant of which version game you are buying for your 360, then it's all downhill from there.
 
Originally posted by: CKDragon
current next-gen consoles

Are you kidding me? Even an article talking about *real* next-gen systems refers to the Xbox 360/PS3/Wii as next-gen. Ugh...

Forgive me, it's been a growing pet peeve of mine... but this is IDIOCY!

Haha... Yeah, they aren't next gen anymore. I was "corrected" on another forum for referring to 360/Wii/PS3 as "current gen" consoles shortly before the Wii and PS3 came out. They may not have been out yet, but they were still part of the current generation - the one that started when the Xbox 360 came out.
 
Originally posted by: Queasy
* CPU/GPU - Integrated chip with 16 x 5GHz processor cores, 32 x 2GHz graphics cores
* Memory - 8GB GDDR8
* Media - Dual-format HD-DVD/Blu-ray drive for backwards compatibility and movies
* Storage - 4TB hard disk for online game (and movie) delivery
* Built-in camera - for gesture-based control
* Built-in microphone - for voice-recognised control

Hah, this sounds like a nerd's wet dream more than realistic. I don't think these people get it. You don't plan for what you think might happen in the future. Why do you think the 360 did not have HDMI when it released? When Microsoft started planning the 360, the HDMI spec wasn't finished so they didn't include it. Just because 2011 will have all these super awesome devices does not mean they will find a way into a gaming console.

Also, just because a PC uses a lot of RAM does not mean a console needs one. PCs tend to have a lot more overhead even though consoles do use more operating system-esque setups. But even then, their OSes tend to be more specifically tailored rather than generic (Dreamcast was probably the only one that was more generic as it used Windows CE).

16 cores? I haven't even heard of Nehalem using 8 like they say. Also, they seem to have a metaphorical hard-on for hertz. Any real computer person with half a brain knows that hertz is only part of the equation about the true power of the processor. My bet is that they'll move away from PowerPC processors into the x86 realm again. PowerPCs have been shown, especially with Apple's move, to not provide even close to the best bang for the buck when it comes to power per dollar.

4TB of HDD space? These people are just making audacious claims based on some sort of weird scale chart or something. Do you know where that same sort of thinking got us years ago? Heck, they even mention it in the article. I would say that 3-5 years ago, we all would've expected to see 6Ghz processors or more. Although, one can say that with hard drives, I don't think anyone expects anything more than going up in size, but 4TB by 2011? From 2007 to 2008 we pretty much went from 750GB to 1TB. A TB drive will still cost you $400 right now as well. If 2011 brings us up to 4TB, I highly doubt the drive will be economical enough to put into a console unless you're Sony.

Built-in stuff will never work. The issue with a built in camera for a console is that consoles can be in a variety of places and sometimes even remain relatively unseen. How can a camera necessarily see you. Also, consoles tend to have a sleek design yet having some weird eye-looking thing on the case would mar the "beauty" of the system. Just think... imagine if you replaced your 360 power button with a logitech webcam. Wouldn't that just look strange... almost HAL like? Next XBOX's issue will be more like, "Sorry, I cannot do that master" and of course, will glow red. It shall be dubbed the Red Eye of Death. Built-in microphone probably wouldn't work because you sit too far away. These things work on a PC because of the placement. You build microphones and webcams into the monitor or the laptop above the screen be cause logically... someone will always be in front of it when using it.
 
If it comes with a media center which allows me to wirelessly stream all popular video formats then consider me sold. They already give everything else I want. After that, it's all about the games.
 
Originally posted by: Aikouka
4TB of HDD space? These people are just making audacious claims based on some sort of weird scale chart or something. Do you know where that same sort of thinking got us years ago? Heck, they even mention it in the article. I would say that 3-5 years ago, we all would've expected to see 6Ghz processors or more. Although, one can say that with hard drives, I don't think anyone expects anything more than going up in size, but 4TB by 2011? From 2007 to 2008 we pretty much went from 750GB to 1TB. A TB drive will still cost you $400 right now as well. If 2011 brings us up to 4TB, I highly doubt the drive will be economical enough to put into a console unless you're Sony.

In late 1999, hard drive space was about $10/GB, or 10 GB for $100. Eight years later you can buy a 500 GB hard drive for $100. So in another 4 years, if the same rate of increase continued (not sure if that's even possible), you're looking at 12.5 TB for $100. I think it depends on whether they decide to use 3.5" drives or stick with laptop drives. With 3.5" drives, multi-TB drives in consoles are feasible in 4 years. With laptop drives topping out at 320 GB right now, I highly doubt we'd see a 4 TB laptop drive in a console in 4 years.

Now, I'm not entirely sure the current rate of increase will continue for a few reasons:
1. I'm not sure people will be able to use that much space. But then, who would have thought anyone would find a use for 1 TB? How much porn can one man handle?
2. I'm not sure we can keep packing those bits with greater density. But then again, we fit 1 TB into the same physical space as 20 MB 20 years ago. Who knows when it'll end.


Whether they go for capacity or size depends on what progress we've made with regard to online multimedia delivery by then. HD video is big. If I'm going to be downloading HD movies and/or using my console as an HD DVR, I'm going to want a hell of a lot of hard drive space. I think the 20 GB that MS packaged with the 360 is really inadequate to really take advantage of what they're offering this time around.
 
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
It's unfathomable that MS will not support a higher disc capacity format. HD-DVD and/or BR (depending on which one wins by then) will be supported out of the box, no question. (Or some other disk format)

I don't see this happening at all. Will it be a huge problem a couple of years down the road? Most likely. But the disc format will not change....it can't! By introducing a new disc format, they introduce basically a new console. Developers will not like the idea of coding and producing two different versions.

Just put it this way, if Microsoft (or any other console manufacturer) changes something significant enough to where you need to be cognizant of which version game you are buying for your 360, then it's all downhill from there.

He's talking about the next Xbox, not the 360.
 
Originally posted by: CKDragon
current next-gen consoles

Are you kidding me? Even an article talking about *real* next-gen systems refers to the Xbox 360/PS3/Wii as next-gen. Ugh...

Forgive me, it's been a growing pet peeve of mine... but this is IDIOCY!

idiocy?

THIS...
IS...
INTERRRRNEETTSSSS!!!!
 
I believe the next xbox will not be an xbox at all but in fact just a repackaged NES called the MSES as I predict a revived interest in retro gaming.
 
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: R Nilla
PlayStation 3 uses Blu-ray, and you can get an HD DVD drive for the Xbox 360, so these options are likely to remain on their successors, if only for backwards compatibility.

The HD-DVD add-on is nothing but an accessory, as the name implies, so I doubt Microsoft will be concerned with supporting this out of the box. I can see Sony wanting to keep Blu-Ray for the Playstation 4 to play Playstation 3 games, but given what we're currently seeing with backwards compatibility, I wouldn't be surprised if it was completely absent.

Of course, a lot of this depends on what happens with the current state of HD disc media. Who knows which format (if any) will be around in 2011?

They're not going to support it for movie purposes, but more for disc capacity. (Although it'll be an added bonus of course for movies) The DVD9 limit is going to be pushed within the next year on the 360. (If it's not already) It's unfathomable that MS will not support a higher disc capacity format. HD-DVD and/or BR (depending on which one wins by then) will be supported out of the box, no question. (Or some other disk format)

I didn't even think about it that way. I suppose by then BRDs and HD-DVDs will be cheap enough that it won't matter (I was thinking in terms of the PS3 having a high price due to BR support).

As the article suggests, I wouldn't be surprised if they attempted to move towards a discless distribution system. It may not be until PS5/XBox 1080 that we see no discs, but the next generation will probably see discless distribution (a la Steam) while still producing physical versions for the nonconformists (similar to the Warhawk release). The DRM will probably be mind-numbing 🙂
 
Originally posted by: mugs
In late 1999, hard drive space was about $10/GB, or 10 GB for $100. Eight years later you can buy a 500 GB hard drive for $100. So in another 4 years, if the same rate of increase continued (not sure if that's even possible), you're looking at 12.5 TB for $100. I think it depends on whether they decide to use 3.5" drives or stick with laptop drives. With 3.5" drives, multi-TB drives in consoles are feasible in 4 years. With laptop drives topping out at 320 GB right now, I highly doubt we'd see a 4 TB laptop drive in a console in 4 years.

Now, I'm not entirely sure the current rate of increase will continue for a few reasons:
1. I'm not sure people will be able to use that much space. But then, who would have thought anyone would find a use for 1 TB? How much porn can one man handle?
2. I'm not sure we can keep packing those bits with greater density. But then again, we fit 1 TB into the same physical space as 20 MB 20 years ago. Who knows when it'll end.


Whether they go for capacity or size depends on what progress we've made with regard to online multimedia delivery by then. HD video is big. If I'm going to be downloading HD movies and/or using my console as an HD DVR, I'm going to want a hell of a lot of hard drive space. I think the 20 GB that MS packaged with the 360 is really inadequate to really take advantage of what they're offering this time around.

What I'm currently looking at is how we're expanding now. We're currently trying to raise the platter size which has been getting very crowded as of late which can cause quite a lot of problems. This is why we switched to perpendicular recording (anyone remember the "Get Perpendicular" flash animation... a classic). This is kind of like the megahertz wall here... we're reaching the limits of our current levels of technology. I bet we'll get more out of what we have, but I don't think we'll shoot up like we did over the past 8 years. I'd say by 2011 we'll probably have 3-4TB drives as the newest (and most expensive) stuff. This is even more unlikely if you look at the past year. Over the course of 2007 we migrated from 750GB to 1TB. This is a huge jump if you look at previous sizes, but if we barely change like this over the course of another year, we're looking at maybe 1.5TB by 2009. Yet, with the price of a 1TB HDD right now, it'd be unfeasible to put these into a console.

Also, one aspect I completely forgot about is currently... consoles use 2.5" HDDs, which these are definitely not as advanced as their larger brethren, because they're meant for notebooks. I'd say by 2011, you will see 1TB-2TB 2.5" HDDs max.

My honest prediction is by 2011, you will see a new (and it will start expensive) style of storing data... kind of like that whole holographic or whatever it was called method. HDDs are becoming less ideal for storage and storage companies aren't oblivious to this. I doubt the next group of consoles will take advantage of this. They will most likely ship with 250GB 2.5" HDDs. Although, if the next set of consoles tries to stress online downloading, they may try for a larger drive.
 
Yeah, this is just crazy speculation right now. I heard all sorts of rumors about the PS2 years before it was released and I think about 10% of them ended up being true. Just sit it out and wait and enjoy the 360 while you're at it.
 
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
It's unfathomable that MS will not support a higher disc capacity format. HD-DVD and/or BR (depending on which one wins by then) will be supported out of the box, no question. (Or some other disk format)

I don't see this happening at all. Will it be a huge problem a couple of years down the road? Most likely. But the disc format will not change....it can't! By introducing a new disc format, they introduce basically a new console. Developers will not like the idea of coding and producing two different versions.

Just put it this way, if Microsoft (or any other console manufacturer) changes something significant enough to where you need to be cognizant of which version game you are buying for your 360, then it's all downhill from there.

Um, what are you talking about? This is the console AFTER the 360. It will have to have a new medium. This is not a XBox 360 v2.0...like a PS2 Slim.
 
Is this a joke? 8 gigs of memory? Maybe I'm just not giving credit to the advances in technology, but 2 gigs of memory seems much more feasible than 8. Also 4 TB is pretty large HDD space especially since consoles favor 2.5" drives. Also Dual Format drives is likely not going to happen. Sony may stick with Blu Ray, but MS will back HD DVD unless it's all but gone from the market (I'd expect Sony to throw in Blu Ray even if it's the losing format).
 
Originally posted by: ObscureCaucasian
Is this a joke? 8 gigs of memory?

I'm thinking there's no way that will happen, but it's hard to say. Considering right now it only has 512MB (IIRC), I would be surprised if it had 2GB.

EDIT: And the 512 was after the Gears of War team showed them what they could do. Wasn't it originally going to be 256?
 
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: ObscureCaucasian
Is this a joke? 8 gigs of memory?

I'm thinking there's no way that will happen, but it's hard to say. Considering right now it only has 512MB (IIRC), I would be surprised if it had 2GB.

EDIT: And the 512 was after the Gears of War team showed them what they could do. Wasn't it originally going to be 256?

The 360 has 8x the memory that the Xbox did, so if they do the same thing, the Xbox 3 will have 4GB of memory.

AFAIK you're correct, the 360 was supposed to have 256MB of memory originally. That would have been horrible though, so thankfully they changed it.
 
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