After 9/11, has your opinion of whether flag burning should be illegal or not changed?

[b0mbrman]

I'm at Berkeley and I've seen my share of flags being burned...I'll tell you, there's nothing I'd like more than to kick someone in the head when I see them burning the flag (being ex-Army and all)

But think about it. Those f*cks aren't doing it for themselves. Do you think they sit at home burning flags in their fireplace?

Probably not...they're doing it outdoors to piss people like me off. They *want* me to do something like yell "Stop doing that! I'll kick your ass!" or maybe they just want me to kick their ass so they can explain how flag-burning is in the constitution and also look like the victim...

In any case, those hippies are trying to freak you out. I don't give them the satisfaction. I walk up, tell them "Wow, you're pretty stupid" then shake my head and walk away.

 

[Tominator]

<< Tom, the freedom of expression has, historically, been tied to the freedom of speech, because expession is a form of speech. >>



Flip Off the Judge in any court in the land and see how far Freedom of Expression gets you.

:frown:

 

[b0mbrman]

If in doing that, they're exercising their freedom of speech, then I exercise my freedom in speech by doing this

 

[skace]

"Flip Off the Judge in any court in the land and see how far Freedom of Expression gets you."

I'm glad you said "IN ANY COURT" instead of in the comfort of your own home / protesting on the streets because then you wouldn't have had a leg to stand on eh?

"If in doing that, they're exercising their freedom of speech, then I exercise my freedom in speech by doing this"

And you can do that, your point? Don't tell me it took you 53 posts to figure out you could post a stupid .jpg that is barely funny.

 

[Tominator]

<< I'm glad you said "IN ANY COURT" instead of in the comfort of your own home / protesting on the streets because then you wouldn't have had a leg to stand on eh? >>



But you see, that is the point. Freedom has limits. That is without exception.

 

[skace]

And freedom gives you the ability to flip that judge off from your house and also burn a flag. There are many things that arn't allowed in a court of law, that has nothing to do with burning a flag in protest.

 

[ndee]

<< To further clarify my point, people who burn flags do so to provoke a reaction on a VERY touchy subject. As such, they should live with the consequences which may well be a beating. If you want to have a debate on whatever pet issue you support, then fine. If you want to burn a flag, wear some kevlar.

I am absolutely serious. You burn a flag in front of me and you will be lucky to only have my mucus sprayed accross your face. >>



ROTFLMAO. You're a tough cookie huh?

 

[Tominator]

In court? Out? What's the difference?

We as voters have limited some freedoms. If the voters through their elected Reps want to ban flag burning, how is that different? How could it be freedom of expression? That is not an absolute freedom...no freedom is absolute.

Burn the flag in your own home....please!

 

[Amused]

<< In court? Out? What's the difference?

We as voters have limited some freedoms. If the voters through their elected Reps want to ban flag burning, how is that different? How could it be freedom of expression? That is not an absolute freedom...no freedom is absolute.

Burn the flag in your own home....please! >>



Tom, you're right, no freedom is absolute. However, Skace brings up a very valid point.

At any rate, WHY limit more freedoms? Isn't one of our country's main problems today the limiting of freedoms to sooth this group or that?

Even if you don't believe expression is speech, and therefore protected, you MUST, as a conservative, respect the private property argument.

There really is no other reason to pursue this ban than to stop people from offending other people. Seems, kinda "PC" to me.

The old "Bill of no Rights" said it best:

"You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be."

 

[Tominator]

AmusedOne

I agree completely. The Flag in my hands means a lot. I will handle it with respect and according to custom.

When I see the news in which someone is buring the Flag, I do not get mad. I feel sorry for those people who have turned their own lack of hope into hate. They will never know the joy of living in the US. They are like animals in a cage, striking out at everything and anything.

When I see our own citizens doing it, it just fortifies my stance on the dreadful state of what we call 'Higher Education.' Of course a great many are out for nothing but the publicity...

I see no reason for the need of an Amendment

 

[Amused]

<< AmusedOne

I agree completely. The Flag in my hands means a lot. I will handle it with respect and according to custom.

When I see the news in which someone is buring the Flag, I do not get mad. I feel sorry for those people who have turned their own lack of hope into hate. They will never know the joy of living in the US. They are like animals in a cage, striking out at everything and anything.

When I see our own citizens doing it, it just fortifies my stance on the dreadful state of what we call 'Higher Education.' Of course a great many are out for nothing but the publicity...

I see no reason for the need of an Amendment >>



See? We agree on something else.

And I just marvel at the irony of someone destroying the symbol of the very freedom that gives them the right to destroy that symbol.

Like I said before, it's like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

 

[skace]

Thanks for backing me up AmusedOne. I didn't want to look up rules and regulations on why flipping off a judge inside a court is entirely different from doing it outside of the court so I was relying on someone else to back me up.

One last thing Tominator,

"When I see the news in which someone is buring the Flag, I do not get mad. I feel sorry for those people who have turned their own lack of hope into hate. They will never know the joy of living in the US."

What if you saw someone burning a flag and yet at the same time expressing their joy of living in the US? Would it confuse you that perhaps this expression of free speech is the very reason they love living in the US?

 

[VTrider]

What we all should be pissed off at is the fact that this issue has even made it all the way up to the Supreme court!! I mean, we elect are leaders to run this country and I can't even believe that they allow this issue to even further itself, I mean "GOD" some people want to 'ammend' the constitution for this, this is absurd!! Those sentors, congressman, etc. - are just wimps because they don't really want to take the time and the risk of standing up to the common-sense standpoint on why we shouldn't 'ban' the burning of the flag. Instead they are thinking of themselves and getting elected next term by standing on the viewpoint of being a 'patriot'. But i'll tell you this, we all know where the true 'patriots' that respect this country and it's freedoms all stand on this issue.

Everybody is always saying that although they don't believe in banning the act, if they saw somebody 'burning' the flag, they don't agree with that act and some of you even mentioned about inflicting bodily harm, but.....

would you still disagree with that protester burning the flag if the only reason he was burning it was to 'protect it'? What if this country 'did' pass this amendment? Would you burn it in protest to this amendment? Would you think that would be alright? It would get your point across in a hurry.

I undertand 'everything' our flag stands for, and respect that fully - that is why we shouldn't pass any amendment to 'protect it' - this might sound ironic to some, but if it does then you are just not thinking deeply enough about the situation, just reacting out of emotion.

I can't beleive we are spending our tax $$$ and time even considering this.....

-VTrider

 

[DuffmanOhYeah]

<<

<< Not only would a ban infringe on the freedom of expression/speech >>



Bull crapola! That is an injection of opinion and there is NOTHING in the Constitution that even hints that flag burning is speech or the expression thereof! >>


Not true. If we look at Texas v. Johnson, the Supreme Court clearly indicates that the burning of a flag (in a manner consistent with Johnson's actions) is a form of speech.
From Justice Brennan's (and the Court's) Opinion:
"Johnson was convicted for engaging in expressive conduct... Nor does the State's interest in preserving the flag as a symbol of nationhood and national unity justify his criminal conviction for engaging in political expression"
Plain as day, Johnson's burning of the flag was political speech.

 

[VTrider]

<< "Flip Off the Judge in any court in the land and see how far Freedom of Expression gets you." >>



True story:

Brother is a lawyer, told me this story. Bunch of kids driving around like bunch of kids driving around with nothing to do, but get in trouble sort of thing. Pass a cop sitting in car w/radar. They weren't speeding, but as they passed the policeman, all of them flipped the bird (from inside car) to the policeman. Policeman pulls over kids in car, searches car and finds a lot of marijuana (a few ounces I think) hidden in car. So anyway to make a long story short, they get arrested, blah, blah, blah - when they get to court, Judge throws the case out of court on the grounds that the policeman didn't have any reasonable cause to pull over the kids in the first place (they were just excercising their freedom of speech).

This thread reminded me of this story. Heh! So if anybody has a beef against cops (or a particular one) you too probably can do this same thing and get away with it, based on this case now.

-VTrider

 

[Sketcher]

If You live or are in this Country, Respect the American Flag. Respect what it stands for.

The fact that the American Flag represents among other things our right to express ourselves does not justify the burning of said Flag unless it is for retiring purposes.

Burning the Flag for other than honorable reasons does nothing to excersize the very rights the American Flag stands for - it mocks them.

I supported initial legislation in support of a Ban on Flag Burning Before Sept 11th, and I would do so again.


<< However, if you do it in public, especially in front of me, you also have a right to get your ass kicked. >>

I wholeheartedly second that motion.

I thought it appropriate - legislation that was passed when the original bill on the flag burning ban was in congress - the bill did not pass due to liberal contention that the flag stood for our very right to burn the flag, subsequent legislation did pass that those who physically assaulted one who desecrated the Flag endured a lesser fine and conviction than a normal assault would carry.

I say, you want to burn the American Flag, then step up to the plate son. Stand by your conviction, and prepare to have that conviction shoved so far up your ass that.... Edit

And I'll gladly pay the fine.

 

[SuperTool]

I heard somewhere that the honorable way to dispose of an old or damaged American Flag is to burn it. Someone told me that it's wrong to just stick it in the trash can, becuase that would be dishonoring the flag. Is that true, or is that BS?

 

[GasX]

The correct way to decommision a flag is to take it down, fold it properly and burn it. Of course, it should be burned in private and not on the college green after being soaked in gasoline.

There is a link on the first page of this thread to a website about proper use of the flag. Check it out.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< heard somewhere that the honorable way to dispose of an old or damaged American Flag is to burn it. Someone told me that it's wrong to just stick it in the trash can, becuase that would be dishonoring the flag. Is that true, or is that BS? >>



That is true. If you have one you need to "retire" try contacting your local boy scouts. In a lot of places they collect worn flags and "retire" them like once a month.

 

[VTrider]

How about if somebody made a flag - red, white, and blue - stars and stripes - everything identical to the US flag minus.....let's say 1 white star.

Then they burned it on their own property - would that piss some of you off? And why if so?

What if I took a box of crayola crayons and drew a US flag on a white napkin - now would that be considered a "US Flag" if you say no, then how do you go about classifying something as a genuine US flag? Could I burn that napkin flag I made and risk jailtime?

What about that 4th of July birthday cake w/US flag in frosting - I wouldn't want to be the first one to cut into the cake for Gods sake, risk jailtime and/or fine!!

I wonder if this amendment did pass, could I go to jail for 'talking' about burning a US flag?

What's next? going to jail for burning apple pie? - that's all american, right?

-VTrider

 

[sandorski]

Most Americans who burn the flag do so not as an expression against American Ideals, but as a form of protest against the Government of the US. Essentially, making flag burnung a criminal offense is a way of making anti-government protest illegal, not totally mind you.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

<< You don't know how pissed I get at the people with their flag out all night without it being properly lit.

Great, if you choose to show support your country, learn the proper way to do so. Learn proper flag handling protocol. >>

Amen! I actually passed out a "proper flag protocol" flyer in our neighborhood because there were so many flags flying at night without illumination. Have seen lots of flags hung with the field of stars incorrectly oriented also. And I doubt most know how to properly raise and/or lower a flag flown at half mast.

As for flag burning, I personally despise it but recognize that banning it would probably only stir things up more. What really irks me is that locally we had a case where a man was given significant jail time for burning a gay right's flag. If it's OK to burn the U.S. flag, then it ought to be OK to burn ANY flag.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< You don't know how pissed I get at the people with their flag out all night without it being properly lit.

Great, if you choose to show support your country, learn the proper way to do so. Learn proper flag handling protocol. >>

Amen! I actually passed out a "proper flag protocol" flyer in our neighborhood because there were so many flags flying at night without illumination. Have seen lots of flags hung with the field of stars incorrectly oriented also. And I doubt most know how to properly raise and/or lower a flag flown at half mast.

As for flag burning, I personally despise it but recognize that banning it would probably only stir things up more. What really irks me is that locally we had a case where a man was given significant jail time for burning a gay right's flag. If it's OK to burn the U.S. flag, then it ought to be OK to burn ANY flag. >>



Now wait a second. I highly doubt he was jailed for the act of burning a gay rights flag. If anything, he was jailed for either an illegal open flame, or destroying private/public property (i.e., the flag wasn't his to burn).

Wanna bet?

A fool who did the same with a US flag would be treated the same, and they are.