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after 17 years i finally beat Chrono Trigger..

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exdeath said:
Yeah I probably would because if they remade it I'm sure Locke and Celes would be packing grenades and M4s with holo sights and wearing dog tags. And the beautiful 1+ hour ending would be cut for a 13 second CGI clip of something blowing up.

But hey at least it will be in 4096p!
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So what was the point where it turned for you? Sounds like you were still on board with the PS1....
 
About the first Xbox and PS3/360.

PS2 was the last system I really *enjoyed* (Xenosaga and Kingdom Hearts among others) but even then I noticed the decline.

Xbox was the start of this dark age in gaming, the start of the casual mainstream shift to "mature" Halo and COD fap fest that has stagnated gaming to online competative FPSes.

Don't get me wrong , I've had fun with my 360 here and there, just nothing as profound as 16/32 bit.
 
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Yeah, the 16bit / 32bit era was the pinnacle of console gaming for me. Had both the Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo and loved them both. Secret of Mana was what hooked me in to JRPGs and Chrono Trigger sealed the deal. I haven't played Final Fantasy III (aka VI) but shall look into doing that to cap off the Squaresoft '90s trifecta. I wasn't much too fond of the PS1/PS2 era, I even had Final Fantasy VII but thought it to be rubbish. I should take a look at Xenogears. Lately, I have enjoyed PS3 games, such as MGS and Birds of Prey, but not at the level of the aforementioned.

I still have all of my consoles and games languishing away in a box in my father's garage.
 
this is a great thread. hey exdeath, you said xenogears sucked (dragged) for the first 90%? did I read that right? only the last 10% was good?

I couldnt have been reading that right, because you're gushing about the game. I want to give it a try now, but I fear I would lose interest if the first 90% was boring.

also, I am 30 now and I share the same memories as a lot of you. Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Super Mario RPG...hold a special place in my gaming heart.
 
exdeath said:
About the first Xbox and PS3/360.

PS2 was the last system I really *enjoyed* (Xenosaga and Kingdom Hearts among others) but even then I noticed the decline.

Xbox was the start of this dark age in gaming, the start of the casual mainstream shift to "mature" Halo and COD fap fest that has stagnated gaming to online competative FPSes.

Don't get me wrong , I've had fun with my 360 here and there, just nothing as profound as 16/32 bit.
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They're still making JRPGs though, even if they're no longer the marquee games. What is it about the modern ones that doesn't do it for you? I tuned out from them after the SNES, as they got progressively more insane. They seem so crazy nowadays, but so did xenogears...so what am I missing?
 
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I prefer a cold seriousness in the story with deep tragic drama. Not this goofy giggling preschool girls anime crap.

Kids in tragic RPGs are awesome for exploiting the player's emotions (see: Palom and Porom), but not everybody in the game needs to or should be 12 year olds fighting epic world ending battles (See Cecil, Rosa, Kain, Fei, Elly, etc).

It doesn't get much deeper than Xenogears. Xenogears I'm glad to have played now for the first time. I don't know if even half of of the tragedy and philosophical content would have registered with me when I was younger. Even now it took me weeks of sorting through materials to fully unravel and comprehend the magnitude and scope of which Xenogears the game was but a blink of an eye.

Today's games, even the JRPGs, just don't have that weight and gravity behind them anymore. FF13 for example was just a "on rails" 30 hour tunnel run with a battle system. Even the grand master of the JRPG can't get it right anymore. They follow the same mainstream formula as every other game today:

-follow the arrow from point A to C stopping at large open area at point B in the middle (not like you need the arrow, there is no other way to go)

-get to open area B filled with waist high cover (yes it's there in spirit even in a RPG where it's just part of the level art), prepare for "waves" of fights.

-sleep while mashing 1 button, win all fights

-continue to point C (again in a straight line)

-get to point C and watch a FMV

-rinse /repeat until your back at the title screen (because you missed the ending if you blinked at all)

Radiant Historia on the DS is the most recent modern RPG I've played that rekindled the 16 bit era for me.
 
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tHa ShIzNiT said:
this is a great thread. hey exdeath, you said xenogears sucked (dragged) for the first 90%? did I read that right? only the last 10% was good?

I couldnt have been reading that right, because you're gushing about the game. I want to give it a try now, but I fear I would lose interest if the first 90% was boring.
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Hopefully this isn't too much of a spoiler, because even what I say won't make sense as 20-30-40 hours in you still won't see it and wonder WTF I'm talking about until it smacks you in the face with the power of a hydrogen bomb.

Uh DO IT.

It is somewhat clunky due to age, and it does kind of drag on a bit... but that's only because you don't see the whole picture until the end. It's not that the first 90% is bad, it's just you don't really appreciate it until the last 10%? Hard to explain. Lets just say its progressive and things get REEEALLLLLY interesting towards the end and... past that point of no return you will not want to put the controller down, and it will be bittersweet when it's over and leave you lusting for more despite the definitive once and for all conclusion.

What you THINK the game has been all about... all this time, and when it hits you whats really going on and what really happened... your heart will stop and your jaw will hit the floor. And your heartbeat will hang on every word narrated by the still unknowing characters as they start to conjecture and unravel the world around them.

Ugh I can't say anymore. When you play it, just take note how the intro video has absolutely NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in the game........

Because you will watch it 10 times in a row in disbelief after you beat the game. Actually what I did, is when it first hit me my eyes got 10 feet wide, my body went numb, and hands started shaking... I hurried to a save point ASAP and reset the game to watch the intro with my mouth hanging open and breathless... finally a connection between the last 50 hours I've spent in game play and this stupid intro video that has nothing to do with anything...

Talk about the biggest "ooohhhh shiiiiiitttt" moment I've ever had in a long long time. And I fear the last.
 
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Yeah, I think that's why it lost me - back in the SNES days, it was abstract enough that it didn't seem so anime and goofy. Once it started getting better graphics and voice, it really started to show its roots. And yeah, FF13 was a tragic mess - the battle system seemed automatic and even though older JRPGs were basically linear, at least they had enough curves and dead ends to make it feel less so - FF13 basically just dropped the pretense.

If you're into drama and deep characterization though, you should check out heavy rain and enslaved. Neither are RPGs, but they're pretty serious games.

I have a feeling the epic linear RPGs will eventually make a comeback - but I think it's going to come from a western dev. Eventually.
 
The older RPGs had fairly linear stories that did allow for some "scenic routes" (extra stuff), but I don't think they ever felt like you were stuck in a rut when playing them. The Playstation Final Fantasy games were also like this, but they tended to gravitate more toward the weirder stories.

Frankly, I blame anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion for all that shit. Final Fantasy VI came out in '94, Eva in '95 and Final Fantasy VII in '97. We're in an endless spiral of weird psychological twists. It wasn't really until Final Fantasy XII that Square really tried messing with the formula. Although, I think it's possible to argue that the sphere grid may have been Square's first attempt at veering off course, but the battle system is still fairly similar to previous games.
 
There is a balance.

While I talk about games being too "linear", on the other hand I cannot play games like Oblivion or Skyrim where it's just TOO open.

Role playing to me means playing the role of the life of someone else, which inherently means linear in *story* but that doesn't have to translate to obvious linear game play.

Xenogears was pretty linear in actual game play, but the story engaged you and eventually flipped your brain upside down so many times it didn't matter.

I prefer somewhat linear story, like a focused narrative, mixed with as much supporting non linear game play and exploring and ambiance as you can get away with without detracting from what is necessary to achieve engaging story telling.

I got into JRPGs for the story. You invariably need some linearity to force coherent story telling structure and prevent the playing from interfering with the carefully crafted fairy tale.

Oblivion to me is like buying a 2000 page book but the pages are blank. That's not very captivating. I don't want to play as me or take part in a real life simulator. The complete opposite of Oblivion is Final Fantasy XIII where there is NO free roaming, no getting lost, no talking to npcs, no exploring, and no cheese hunting/treasure farming. It's just running in a straight line alternating between battles and FMV. Thats not fun either.

Old school 16/32 bit JRPGs hit the balance perfectly.
 
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exdeath said:
Two things.

1. Its not just me being old and reminiscing over my childhood, because I don't care about the 2600 or NES or Genesis (save for Working Designs games on Sega CD) or Master System I also had. SNES was just special.

2. Its not because of my youth perspective and first time experience as a kid that I was in awe. I recently played Xenogears for the first time in my 30s and while the gameplay and graphics were horribly aged and clunky I was completely stunned. It became my #1 game of all time at age 30. Ergo in my 30s I played a 17 year old 16/32 bit RPG I had never seen before in the same time I had a 360/PC/PS3 and still got that OMG WOW experience from a game I hadn't played when I was younger. Its because the games were just awesome and stand the test of time. Just hearing Xenogears OST "Flight" or "Wings" or "Small of two pieces" makes my eyes water. This ain't no fond childhood memory.

Its not just rose colored glasses and fond memories. Xenogears for the first time at age 30 in the days where I played Xbox 360 on a 120" 1080p screen, and it blew me away and I got to genuinely recall and experience what gaming did to me in the 16/32 bit days, something that no modern game (read military themed FPS) has ever achieved.

God I about balled when the credits starting rolling in Xenogears. What a masterpiece. Breathless. Never has a game or any story from any literature made the hair on my neck stand so many times. Even right now I can utter the word Deus or Eldridge and prompt a faint buzz in my skin. I still wouldn't fully understand and fathom the depth and scope if the game without reading FAQs, story guides, charcter profiles, back story, Perfect Works, for months after. I reiterate for one last time I played this in my 30s for the first time, after being used to PC and 360 era games. Yes the mechanics and graphics are dated and clunky. But that has nothing to do with the substance. Today's games are all about glitzy presentation but they lack substance.
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:thumbsup:

Definitely my favorite game of all time also.
 
 
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Another point to bring up, as reminded by exdeath's post above:

16-bit and 32-bit RPGs have some of the BEST, most memorable, most moving soundtracks and music in all of gaming.

Music that sticks with you for decades, that you can still hum 20 years later. And it's still so damn moving.

Hell, I even listen to playlists on Youtube of plenty of older RPGs I've never even played, and it's super enjoyable. Often times, the music is starkly better than the game, but when they are equal, it's sublime. 🙂
 
exdeath said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnkucSov4g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc3CaS97hP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQiJJ4xNFpI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOetrgQge8A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7D0U_RhH-I

OMG can almost see the goosebumps through my clothes. Not so much just the music, but knowing when it occurred in the game and what was going on at the time. E P I C

Ah hell:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC537D1513657B4E2&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyVRSim-fQI
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they almost bring a tear to my eyes man (no i'm not a crier). you actually don't know what some of the music means when you first encounter it because they are from another era. on a second playthrough you'll understand it all. such an epic and tragic story.
good ending to balance out the emo

I played most of xenosaga and it just wasn't the same. it felt a lot more kiddy, and the story was just a bit too convoluted.
 
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Xenogears is so deep and rich, the complex plethora of individual intertwined sub stories and eras alone could make for decent stand alone games on their own that would probably be better than mainstream games today. When it's all put together under the scope of one main story that made it all happen, it's mind numbing good. Pick ANY one of the side stories and it will be better than many full RPG games.

It's very confusing and way too much to take in on one playthrough, but when it all unravels in your mind, it's incredible. Seriously, on your first playthrough, try not to think too hard about Id, Wiseman, Lacan, Grahf, Fei etc. You likely won't get it all in one go. And as intricate and complex as those relationships are, it's not even the focal point of the story, just added background noise and filler.

You know a game is a masterpiece when the "filler" alone is good enough to stand alone and make their own games/stories. Then combine it in one game in a gratifying bittersweet web of OMFG seasoned with WTF and cook for 80 hours.

Like I said it took me weeks or months after my playthrough soaking up and unraveling every last facet via fan sites, Perfect Works, etc.
 
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