African Researcher Investigates Cause of African-American Poor Academic Peformance (in Affluent communities)

[Infohawk]

East Bay Express Article

Ogbu concluded that the average black student in Shaker Heights put little effort into schoolwork and was part of a peer culture that looked down on academic success as "acting white." Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap.

"The black parents feel it is their role to move to Shaker Heights, pay the higher taxes so their kids could graduate from Shaker, and that's where their role stops," Ogbu says during an interview at his home in the Oakland hills. "They believe the school system should take care of the rest. They didn't supervise their children that much. They didn't make sure their children did their homework. That's not how other ethnic groups think."

I think a lot of people already knew this was the cause but you probably can't get away with saying it unless you're African or African-American. I think it's up to African-Americans generally and African-American families specifically to rectify this issue. I don't see how governments or the general public can help with this.

 

[Atreus21]

Bill Cosby has been saying things like this for awhile.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Bill Cosby has been saying things like this for awhile.

It isn't just Bill Cosby, either. More and more voices of the Black American community are speaking out on this issue...

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Bill Cosby has been saying things like this for awhile.

It isn't just Bill Cosby, either. More and more voices of the Black American community are speaking out on this issue...

Like Obama?

 

[fskimospy]

My mom teaches at an extremely poor school that is overwhelmingly (probably 80%+) black. She sees this all the time. There's more to it than just the stigma of 'acting white' though, a lot more. Her kids not only don't value schoolwork in that way, even the ones that do believe that the system is so stacked against them that even if they do well, they still won't get anywhere... and they are pretty much right.

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people. In turn, black people reject our system, which only validates the system's rejection of them. It's definitely a big component of the cycle of poverty, and I'm not really sure how you fix it either.

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people.

Incorrect.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people.

Incorrect.

No it's completely correct, backed up by reams of research over the course of decades.

 

[1prophet]

How about telling them if they study and work hard in school they would be acting like the Chinese, Korean, Indian, Japanese, etc. not that awful white person.

 

[TechBoyJK]

article is from like 2003.

 

[spidey07]

I'm going to file this under the "duh" category. Until black culture fixes itself with this very specific and harming attitude it's always going to be this way. Whitey is not keeping you down, YOU are.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
My mom teaches at an extremely poor school that is overwhelmingly (probably 80%+) black. She sees this all the time. There's more to it than just the stigma of 'acting white' though, a lot more. Her kids not only don't value schoolwork in that way, even the ones that do believe that the system is so stacked against them that even if they do well, they still won't get anywhere... and they are pretty much right.

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people. In turn, black people reject our system, which only validates the system's rejection of them. It's definitely a big component of the cycle of poverty, and I'm not really sure how you fix it either.

It is easier to blame the system, rather than blame oneself.

Enough blacks have broken free of the "system" to demonstrate that where therer is a will, there is a way.

So the "system" can not be held at fault.

 

[Carmen813]

This is hardly a "black only" problem, I've witnessed plenty of white kids who more or less couldn't give a flying fuck about school. It's bad parenting, hell, the article excerpt in the OPs post even says that.

Race and cultural expectations also play a factor, if you go into an educational experience expecting no chance of success it's hard to be successful.

There is nothing the government can do to get parents more involved, sans going China's root and preventing them from having children in the first place.

 

[69Mach1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people.

Incorrect.

No it's completely correct, backed up by reams of research over the course of decades.

Whether it's true or not really doesn't matter. As long as they believe it's true you have a problem. Until they believe it is going to pay off it won't change.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
My mom teaches at an extremely poor school that is overwhelmingly (probably 80%+) black. She sees this all the time. There's more to it than just the stigma of 'acting white' though, a lot more. Her kids not only don't value schoolwork in that way, even the ones that do believe that the system is so stacked against them that even if they do well, they still won't get anywhere... and they are pretty much right.

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people. In turn, black people reject our system, which only validates the system's rejection of them. It's definitely a big component of the cycle of poverty, and I'm not really sure how you fix it either.

It is profoundly difficult to fix even though, basically, in your case, you are actually looking at the answer. This process of stigmatizing and rejection is nothing more than a facet or subset and operand of self hate. Whites who have internalized feelings of worthlessness accompanied by the need for denial, scapegoat blacks who turn right around and do the same, stigmatizing and rejecting what they see whites represent. The only feature of this that is uniques is skin color. It could be religious bigotry, or some other race, a political party, a nationality, it is all irrelevant.

The important thing is that all of this happens unconsciously because people refuse to suffer. As children the pain of the hate we were exposed to was just too great. Had we not died psychically we would have been killed physically because we would have been functionally impossible to deal with. The problem of course is that to get well we have to relive the pain. Nobody will do that because to do so would be to die all over again. Sure this time the death would lead back to real living, but you can't actually know that while it's happening. You will have panic attacks and all manner of reasons to avoid those feelings.

The cure for blacks and whites and everybody else is simple. Everybody hates himself or herself. Cure yourself and you will have done all that you can.

Blacks whites and everybody else needs to see that we have met the enemy and he is us. But if you can cure yourself of your own self hate, you will not care a fig what anybody else thinks. You will be a giant among ants.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: eskimospy
My mom teaches at an extremely poor school that is overwhelmingly (probably 80%+) black. She sees this all the time. There's more to it than just the stigma of 'acting white' though, a lot more. Her kids not only don't value schoolwork in that way, even the ones that do believe that the system is so stacked against them that even if they do well, they still won't get anywhere... and they are pretty much right.

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people. In turn, black people reject our system, which only validates the system's rejection of them. It's definitely a big component of the cycle of poverty, and I'm not really sure how you fix it either.

It is easier to blame the system, rather than blame oneself.

Enough blacks have broken free of the "system" to demonstrate that where therer is a will, there is a way.

So the "system" can not be held at fault.

Ahhh the old 'I don't care what independant research says, I know what's right' line, it's ridiculous.

Blacks suffer from systemic discrimination on multiple levels in our society, (housing, employment, etc.) and they are absolutely viewed as the negative reference group. This has been repeatedly confirmed by research, it's not really deniable anymore. It is certainly possible for for people to break out of this, but it is considerably more difficult for a black kid than a white kid. Thus, the system can absolutely be held at fault.

EDIT: If you read my original post more closely, you'll see that I stated blacks have their share of this blame as well. They are part of the cycle, it is not externally imposed upon them. Their degree of fault does not excuse the systemic problems we have however.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
This is hardly a "black only" problem, I've witnessed plenty of white kids who more or less couldn't give a flying fuck about school. It's bad parenting, hell, the article excerpt in the OPs post even says that.

Race and cultural expectations also play a factor, if you go into an educational experience expecting no chance of success it's hard to be successful.

There is nothing the government can do to get parents more involved, sans going China's root and preventing them from having children in the first place.

but it's more prevalent with blacks, which is what the article is saying.

 

[Craig234]

There's truth to this; when you go back to the massive discrimination against blacks for centuries, it's natural for there to be a backlash to 'not act white' etc.

The important thing IMO is not the finger pointing to blame, but that instead of just saying "yay, we can blame the blacks and forget the issue", to say what can help?

There were massive efforts to address other 'cultural' issues, such as with women in business or science, that have been pretty successful at reducing problems there.

I don't want to toss out an arbitrary suggestion for a solution, but just to say what's important is that we recognize this is a problem that we should all want to see improved.

That means both the blacks who are in it, blacks who are not close to the problem, and the other races in society. We all play a role in improving it. Or should.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: eskimospy
My mom teaches at an extremely poor school that is overwhelmingly (probably 80%+) black. She sees this all the time. There's more to it than just the stigma of 'acting white' though, a lot more. Her kids not only don't value schoolwork in that way, even the ones that do believe that the system is so stacked against them that even if they do well, they still won't get anywhere... and they are pretty much right.

Like it or not, our system stigmatizes and rejects black people. In turn, black people reject our system, which only validates the system's rejection of them. It's definitely a big component of the cycle of poverty, and I'm not really sure how you fix it either.

It is easier to blame the system, rather than blame oneself.

Enough blacks have broken free of the "system" to demonstrate that where therer is a will, there is a way.

So the "system" can not be held at fault.

Beat dogs and eventually you will find one that will attack you instead of cowering and running away. Beat blacks and you will destroy most, create murderous killers out of others, and some who will beat you at your own game. The reason you want to look at numbers is because anecdotal evidence misleads the untrained mind. Every condition creates some sort of bell curve and if you look at the oddities rather than the norm you won't understand much.

 

[PJABBER]

So what that this article is from 2003? It is just as important and relevant now as it was then. This is an incredibly important issue, describing an unfortunate and prevalent problem that is still not being adequately addressed in any meaningful way.

The racists on this board are happy to chime in, just as the National Urban League did in its comments against Professor Ogbu. The excuses are plentiful as is the blame laying. None of it means spit.

It is NOT a racial issue. It is a cultural issue and it is probably the most important cause of the racial disparity that exists in this country.

There is NO WAY for immigrant or poor or disadvantaged populations (that are ALL discriminated against in their turn) to improve their lots in life without an unwavering commitment to education. And I am not talking about what passes for thought in the vapidness of liberal arts colleges in this country. Getting an education in grammar and high schools where you are supposed to become expert in reading, writing and mathematics skills is critical. And that is where the failure of a huge portion of our population occurring.

Look at the immigrant populations of Vietnamese, Indian, Korean, Chinese, etc. and you will see populations that are en masse pushing their kids toward education and integration. Multiculturalism is not why they choose to be in the US, economic opportunity is. And economic opportunity comes from an ability to function at a competitive level at all stages of life. You prepare for this competition in the classroom.

I know educators like Cosby are doing their best to stimulate action at the family and the school system levels but it is a Sisyphean task. He is a true American hero.

Sheila C. Johnson offered her thoughts at Spellman College's 2008 commencement address -

?You are being asked to enter into this world and compete against a level of competition no generation in America has ever before seen,? said Ms. Johnson. ?It is a world fueled by an economy that relies less on any one country and more on free trade between countries. It is a world whose financial model is not merely global, but ultra competitive.

What is happening out there is war. And I?m not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan, nor am I talking about terrorism ? at least not the kind we associate with 9/11. I am talking about a shifting global economy.?

Identifying the spoils of this war as jobs, growth and economic survival, and the weapons used to win as innovation, initiative and ideas, Ms. Johnson advised the graduates about their competition on the world stage.

?They were taught to mine deeply, to solve problems creatively, and to consider broad and infinite possibilities when given even the most menial tasks,? she explained. ?Their minds were trained to sift through large quantities of information, synthesize it, and then use it to deepen their understanding. Your competition wasn?t so much taught what to think, but how to think?Your competition was taught mental discipline; the kind the world is going to reward as it realigns itself less around geographic lines, and more around economic ones.?

The co-founder of Black Entertainment Television, Ms. Johnson is also the only woman in history to have an ownership stake in three professional sports teams.

Why is it that the voices Dr. Ogbu, Mrs. Johnson and Dr. Cosby go unheard where they should be the most trumpeted?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Craig234
There's truth to this; when you go back to the massive discrimination against blacks for centuries, it's natural for there to be a backlash to 'not act white' etc.

The important thing IMO is not the finger pointing to blame, but that instead of just saying "yay, we can blame the blacks and forget the issue", to say what can help?

There were massive efforts to address other 'cultural' issues, such as with women in business or science, that have been pretty successful at reducing problems there.

I don't want to toss out an arbitrary suggestion for a solution, but just to say what's important is that we recognize this is a problem that we should all want to see improved.

That means both the blacks who are in it, blacks who are not close to the problem, and the other races in society. We all play a role in improving it. Or should.

It is a two way street. Endemic racism needs to be reduced and blacks have to do what it takes to heal. When you have been thrown in a hole somebody can also provide a rope, but you have to climb it yourself.

Whites have to stop pretending they are innocent and blacks have to stop pretending help can come only from others. Being made to feel worthless creates a hole that no amount of money or love can ever fill. We have to love ourselves, in the right way, of course which is more than showmanship black pride. It is real human pride. We are all the same.

 

[blackangst1]

So its STILL the white man's fault? JHC. I cant believe people actually believe this. /boggle

 

[evident]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Bill Cosby has been saying things like this for awhile.

It isn't just Bill Cosby, either. More and more voices of the Black American community are speaking out on this issue...

Like Obama?

it's true. i dont even think it's limited to black people either though. just think about when you were in HS. wasn't it "cool" to not study and do well? kids' attitude of education in this country is facked up.

 

[Infohawk]

It's the system's fault

I don't think it's the system's fault. America has had one of the most racially liberal societies in history for decades. But let's assume for sake of argument that it is the system's fault. This analysis doesn't help at all. There is no way to fix widespread biases towards blacks by focusing on the rest of society's beliefs and behavior. Blacks themselves must change their own appearance in the eyes of others. They can do this by changing their anti-academic culture.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Craig234
There's truth to this; when you go back to the massive discrimination against blacks for centuries, it's natural for there to be a backlash to 'not act white' etc.

The important thing IMO is not the finger pointing to blame, but that instead of just saying "yay, we can blame the blacks and forget the issue", to say what can help?

There were massive efforts to address other 'cultural' issues, such as with women in business or science, that have been pretty successful at reducing problems there.

I don't want to toss out an arbitrary suggestion for a solution, but just to say what's important is that we recognize this is a problem that we should all want to see improved.

That means both the blacks who are in it, blacks who are not close to the problem, and the other races in society. We all play a role in improving it. Or should.

It is a two way street. Endemic racism needs to be reduced and blacks have to do what it takes to heal. When you have been thrown in a hole somebody can also provide a rope, but you have to climb it yourself.

Whites have to stop pretending they are innocent and blacks have to stop pretending help can come only from others.

Agreed; the word I'd change is 'pretending', as I think there are more issues of a lack of understanding by both, than 'pretending'.

Education is needed for understanding raicsm and understanding how to 'heal' the situation we're in. Everyone wants the same end result, but things get in the way.

People can really learn to appreciate others as equal people, or they can fall into other ways of thinking, often not realizing it themselves.

It's easy and natural for people to look at some group that's bad off and assign the problems to the race itself, to 'get used to it' and not see it as a problem to fix.

I could post dozens of examples of that happening by one group to another off the top of my head. Luckily, there are examples where it's been overcome too.

Unfortunately, in our society, economics is the best way to get a problem addressed, and we need principle to motivate addressing this, since the economic pressure isn't there.

I notice the movie fantasies about this tend to have minority kids who just need the teacher to care a little and they're suddenly little gems. I don't think that's very realistic, it's more a sort of white fantasy that probably does more harm than good by underselling the effort needed to fix anything. The fact is, a lot of the situation for blacks right now is quite ugly - the thing is to recognize that that's not something inherent to the people or the race, and that it can get better, but we all have a role to play in that happening.

'Color blind' is a good goal in the long run, but naive in the short run. When's the last time any of us hear expert suggestions from sociologists on what would help, rather than some political commentator using the issue for some political point and not offering anything constructive? That's who we should all be trying to hear from.

We have the political boundaries - the left saying that ignoring the problem is wrong, the right saying that giving a man a fish is wrong, but that's not the end of the issue.

Few Americans liked the 'solution' in the 1950's to bus their white kids further from home to an integrated school just to serve 'some political agenda'. The things that help often are unpopular - including some affirmative action programs that correct some of the problems caused by past racism, the sort of programs that have helped most of the most visible black leaders today. It's a lot easier to just blame a group (whites can blame the black, and vice versa) than to talk about what will help the problem.

And it's a hell of a problem. I can go to Oakland and find all kinds of issues - high crime and such. But things can be improved.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

It's the system's fault

I don't think it's the system's fault. America has had one of the most racially liberal societies in history for decades.

Hahahahahaahahahahahahaa