Afghan refugee attacks several on train in Germany with axe

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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The IBC only tallies verified deaths from media reports & such, which necessarily underscounts particularly in midst a warzone. Fortunately science/math has better tools available to calculate such figures.




I suppose they're responsible for a lot of poor people fighting in the same way that the US is responsible for some thousands times more fatalities in the guise of "military actions" as someone here puts it.

Evidently arguments by rhetorical definition work really well on the dummies because they don't even realize how it works even after clear explanations.

Then how about some peer review, and you actually post your numbers then?

Also, rhetorical definitions are not a thing. A definition has nothing to do with a response. It would be like saying rhetorical banana. If you dont have an argument fine, but dont throw out word salad and pretend you are making a point.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that you haven't the foggiest inkling what a strawman is. (HINT: it's not just facts you're afraid to actually address.) Your attempts to shut down debate throwing out terms you don't even know how to use is lame.

That said, there's no having a ration discussion with you or any of the other apologists on this subject. You're simply not reasonable.

I have no problem saying a person who blows up an abortion clinic is a Christian RELIGIOUS NUTBAG. I have no problem saying that they've taken some aspect of Christianity, twisted it and that it's the clear motive behind their violence. I don't need to post a bunch of links that somehow explains their actions as "Workplace stress" or "They just lost a loved one!" or "Poor thing was abused and isolated" or "US foreign policy!" any of the rest of it, because none of that is the actual reason they blew up an abortion clinic. Citing it would just be making stupid excuses because for some reason I couldn't admit there were Christians who are loonbags.

But this is exactly what your ilk does with Islamic terrorists.

I ask again, what do you imagine is in it for you?

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent."

You've certainly managed to misrepresent or outright fabricate my position(s) so, yeah, straw (with a touch of bullshit as a seasoning).

But that's ok, continue with your ranting if you wish. Your choice.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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The US firebombed Japan, and dropped two nukes on them. You ever see a Japanese terrorist? Is there a serious Japanese terror threat, then or now?

Do we face a constant wave of Vietnamese terrorists?

Do we face a constant wave of Native American terrorists?


When was the last time any of these 'bred terrorists' attacked the US on US soil?


What's their issue with the French? You may recall 80+ people dead on a beach there? Or do you remember the Paris attacks? 130 dead, nearly 400 injured.

What's their beef with Germany?

What's their beef with Sweden?

What's their beef with The Netherlands?

Hell, you do realize the #1 target of Islamic terrorists, is other Muslims right? What's their beef with them? How were they 'bred' by the Muslim men, women and children they kill more than anyone else?

Or are you saying it's rational that if someone attacked New York (and actually they did, 2000 people died you may recall) that the #1 target of retaliation would be people in say, Madison Wisconsin? What would make New Yorkers angry over being attacked kill mostly citizens of their own country?

It might dawn on you and others capable of rational thought, that the things bandied about that 'create terrorism' actually historically and currently DON'T.

The vast majority of people who have even grossly unjust violence visited on them don't take up terrorism as any form of logical revenge or reaction. Even the worst violence of war doesn't produce terrorists as a result- not historically, not currently. Even genocides, slavery and other forms of gross injustices done to peoples don't turn people into terrorists.

Right here for your lesson on the history of terrorism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_terrorism

Right here for your list of countries at war with Daesh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that you haven't the foggiest inkling what a strawman is. (HINT: it's not just facts you're afraid to actually address.) Your attempts to shut down debate throwing out terms you don't even know how to use is lame.

That said, there's no having a ration discussion with you or any of the other apologists on this subject. You're simply not reasonable.

I have no problem saying a person who blows up an abortion clinic is a Christian RELIGIOUS NUTBAG. I have no problem saying that they've taken some aspect of Christianity, twisted it and that it's the clear motive behind their violence. I don't need to post a bunch of links that somehow explains their actions as "Workplace stress" or "They just lost a loved one!" or "Poor thing was abused and isolated" or "US foreign policy!" any of the rest of it, because none of that is the actual reason they blew up an abortion clinic. Citing it would just be making stupid excuses because for some reason I couldn't admit there were Christians who are loonbags.

But this is exactly what your ilk does with Islamic terrorists.

I ask again, what do you imagine is in it for you?
Well said.

The US firebombed Japan, and dropped two nukes on them. You ever see a Japanese terrorist? Is there a serious Japanese terror threat, then or now?

Do we face a constant wave of Vietnamese terrorists?

Do we face a constant wave of Native American terrorists?


When was the last time any of these 'bred terrorists' attacked the US on US soil?


What's their issue with the French? You may recall 80+ people dead on a beach there? Or do you remember the Paris attacks? 130 dead, nearly 400 injured.

What's their beef with Germany?

What's their beef with Sweden?

What's their beef with The Netherlands?

Hell, you do realize the #1 target of Islamic terrorists, is other Muslims right? What's their beef with them? How were they 'bred' by the Muslim men, women and children they kill more than anyone else?

Or are you saying it's rational that if someone attacked New York (and actually they did, 2000 people died you may recall) that the #1 target of retaliation would be people in say, Madison Wisconsin? What would make New Yorkers angry over being attacked kill mostly citizens of their own country?

It might dawn on you and others capable of rational thought, that the things bandied about that 'create terrorism' actually historically and currently DON'T.

The vast majority of people who have even grossly unjust violence visited on them don't take up terrorism as any form of logical revenge or reaction. Even the worst violence of war doesn't produce terrorists as a result- not historically, not currently. Even genocides, slavery and other forms of gross injustices done to peoples don't turn people into terrorists.
Also well said.

You do not understand what you are reading and or you sources are shit. Check out this site. Scroll down and change all perpetrators to US-led coalition, no Iraqi state forces.

See how different the numbers are?

multigraph.php




https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2011/


Then lets go back to the original point.

Do you accept the fact that Muslims represent a disproportionate amount of terrorism?
You aren't playing fairly. To these mindless loons, anyone the terrorists kill is also on America's tab.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
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Bullshit mixed with lies

Typical.

You did exactly as in my example, now you're trying to say you didn't. You used links and your own (mostly made up) sob stories as an excuse for why a guy attacks perfect strangers on a train with an axe, and completely FAILED to address the nutty religious motives despite the FACTS of the case.

Which is all you ever do- along with accuse everyone else of the tactics you yourself employ.

Like I said, there is no rational conversation with you on this topic, you're irrational.

I also knew you wouldn't answer my question what you think is in it for you to cover for Islamic militants. Personally I think it's a mix of extreme cowardice; unable to look at radical islam for what it is and own up to it, and PC nitwittery run amock.

(Can't EVER say anything bad about a member of a leftloon protected minority class- even at the expense of making lame ass excuses for mass murderers, thugs, rapists, terrorists, etc.)
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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Typical.

You did exactly as in my example, now you're trying to say you didn't. You used links and your own (mostly made up) sob stories as an excuse for why a guy attacks perfect strangers on a train with an axe, and completely FAILED to address the nutty religious motives despite the FACTS of the case.

Which is all you ever do- along with accuse everyone else of the tactics you yourself employ.

Like I said, there is no rational conversation with you on this topic, you're irrational.

I also knew you wouldn't answer my question what you think is in it for you to cover for Islamic militants. Personally I think it's a mix of extreme cowardice; unable to look at radical islam for what it is and own up to it, and PC nitwittery run amock.

(Can't EVER say anything bad about a member of a leftloon protected minority class- even at the expense of making lame ass excuses for mass murderers, thugs, rapists, terrorists, etc.)

Make America great again
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
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Right here for your lesson on the history of terrorism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_terrorism

Right here for your list of countries at war with Daesh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL
How does this answer the questions I asked in any other way but to prove most of my points?

Can you point to me a Japanese terror group that sprang up after 1945 as a direct result of US military action?

A Native American one as a response to wrongs done to Native Americans?

Any group as a result of the Vietnam war?

Infact, as it's constantly floated that US military is the main catalyst for "creating" these terrorist groups, you should easily be able to point me to all the groups created expressly as a result of it, minus nutty stated relgious motives.


Hint: won't be al-Qaeda if you were thinking that. Won't be Hezbollah (literally Party of Allah)

Hamas? Nope.

(Most of the non-Islamic modern terror groups are extreme leftloons, BTW, with anti-capitalist pro communist motives.)

So I'm just curious where are all these US-created terror groups?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
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How does this answer the questions I asked in any other way but to prove most of my points?

Can you point to me a Japanese terror group that sprang up after 1945 as a direct result of US military action?

A Native American one as a response to wrongs done to Native Americans?

Any group as a result of the Vietnam war?

Infact, as it's constantly floated that US military is the main catalyst for "creating" these terrorist groups, you should easily be able to point me to all the groups created expressly as a result of it, minus nutty stated relgious motives.


Hint: won't be al-Qaeda if you were thinking that. Won't be Hezbollah (literally Party of Allah)

Hamas? Nope.

(Most of the non-Islamic modern terror groups are extreme leftloons, BTW, with anti-capitalist pro communist motives.)

So I'm just curious where are all these US-created terror groups?

Yea we do tend to simplify things around here. Here is snippet of what some academic wrote at the Hoover Inst. I know nothing about them. Could be a right wing think tank.

http://www.hoover.org/research/religious-sources-islamic-terrorism

Modern international Islamist terrorism is a natural offshoot of twentieth-century Islamic fundamentalism. The “Islamic Movement” emerged in the Arab world and British-ruled India as a response to the dismal state of Muslim society in those countries: social injustice, rejection of traditional mores, acceptance of foreign domination and culture. It perceives the malaise of modern Muslim societies as having strayed from the “straight path” (as-sirat al-mustaqim) and the solution to all ills in a return to the original mores of Islam. The problems addressed may be social or political: inequality, corruption, and oppression. But in traditional Islam — and certainly in the worldview of the Islamic fundamentalist — there is no separation between the political and the religious. Islam is, in essence, both religion and regime (din wa-dawla) and no area of human activity is outside its remit. Be the nature of the problem as it may, “Islam is the solution.”

The underlying element in the radical Islamist worldview is ahistoric and dichotomist: Perfection lies in the ways of the Prophet and the events of his time; therefore, religious innovations, philosophical relativism, and intellectual or political pluralism are anathema. In such a worldview, there can exist only two camps — Dar al-Islam (“The House of Islam” — i.e., the Muslim countries) and Dar al-Harb (“The House of War” — i.e., countries ruled by any regime but Islam) — which are pitted against each other until the final victory of Islam. These concepts are carried to their extreme conclusion by the radicals; however, they have deep roots in mainstream Islam.

While the trigger for “Islamic awakening” was frequently the meeting with the West, Islamic-motivated rebellions against colonial powers rarely involved individuals from other Muslim countries or broke out of the confines of the territories over which they were fighting. Until the 1980s, most fundamentalist movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan Muslimun) were inward-looking; Western superiority was viewed as the result of Muslims having forsaken the teachings of the Prophet. Therefore, the remedy was, first, “re-Islamization” of Muslim society and restoration of an Islamic government, based on Islamic law (shari’ah). In this context, jihad was aimed mainly against “apostate” Muslim governments and societies, while the historic offensive jihad of the Muslim world against the infidels was put in abeyance (at least until the restoration of the caliphate).

Until the 1980s, attempts to mobilize Muslims all over the world for a jihad in one area of the world (Palestine, Kashmir) were unsuccessful. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a watershed event, as it revived the concept of participation in jihad to evict an “infidel” occupier from a Muslim country as a “personal duty” (fard ’ein) for every capable Muslim. The basis of this duty derives from the “irreversibility” of Islamic identity both for individual Muslims (thus, capital punishment for “apostates” — e.g., Salman Rushdie) and for Muslim territories. Therefore, any land (Afghanistan, Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain) that had once been under the sway of Islamic law may not revert to control by any other law. In such a case, it becomes the “personal duty” of all Muslims in the land to fight a jihad to liberate it.
If they do not succeed, it becomes incumbent on any Muslim in a certain perimeter from that land to join the jihad and so forth. Accordingly, given the number of Muslim lands under “infidel occupation” and the length of time of those occupations, it is argued that it has become a personal duty for all Muslims to join the jihad. This duty — if taken seriously — is no less a religious imperative than the other five pillars of Islam (the statement of belief or shahadah, prayer, fasting, charity, and haj). It becomes a de facto (and in the eyes of some a de jure) sixth pillar; a Muslim who does not perform it will inherit hell.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
How does this answer the questions I asked in any other way but to prove most of my points?

Can you point to me a Japanese terror group that sprang up after 1945 as a direct result of US military action?

A Native American one as a response to wrongs done to Native Americans?

Any group as a result of the Vietnam war?

Infact, as it's constantly floated that US military is the main catalyst for "creating" these terrorist groups, you should easily be able to point me to all the groups created expressly as a result of it, minus nutty stated relgious motives.


Hint: won't be al-Qaeda if you were thinking that. Won't be Hezbollah (literally Party of Allah)

Hamas? Nope.

(Most of the non-Islamic modern terror groups are extreme leftloons, BTW, with anti-capitalist pro communist motives.)

So I'm just curious where are all these US-created terror groups?


https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...werent_there_insurgentsterrorists_in_postww2/

We disintegrated Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Movement

Vietnam? They kind of won that one


You asked what's their beef with Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands
I showed you Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands are at war with them
If you had mentioned Canada, I would of said they would be pissed at us because we are at war with them
We are a more likely target because of that right?
 
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Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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Typical.

You did exactly as in my example, now you're trying to say you didn't. You used links and your own (mostly made up) sob stories as an excuse for why a guy attacks perfect strangers on a train with an axe, and completely FAILED to address the nutty religious motives despite the FACTS of the case.

Which is all you ever do- along with accuse everyone else of the tactics you yourself employ.

Like I said, there is no rational conversation with you on this topic, you're irrational.

I also knew you wouldn't answer my question what you think is in it for you to cover for Islamic militants. Personally I think it's a mix of extreme cowardice; unable to look at radical islam for what it is and own up to it, and PC nitwittery run amock.

(Can't EVER say anything bad about a member of a leftloon protected minority class- even at the expense of making lame ass excuses for mass murderers, thugs, rapists, terrorists, etc.)

Still slinging straw and bullshit. Hope you're having fun.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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Then how about some peer review, and you actually post your numbers then?

There's a pretty well known epidemiology based study published in the Lancet. I assume you know how to use google.

Also, rhetorical definitions are not a thing. A definition has nothing to do with a response. It would be like saying rhetorical banana. If you dont have an argument fine, but dont throw out word salad and pretend you are making a point.

You're simply ignorant about how words work. Most words don't directly reference physical objects, and abstract concepts are subject to rhetorical definition. Eg. when the US explodes a bomb that kills civilians, it's not terrorism, the term is defined to only apply when someone generally poor preferably not white does it.

Ignorance can be fixed, though not always successfully.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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Yea we do tend to simplify things around here. Here is snippet of what some academic wrote at the Hoover Inst. I know nothing about them. Could be a right wing think tank.

http://www.hoover.org/research/religious-sources-islamic-terrorism

Would someone like that agree modern state sponsored mass murder is a natural offshoot of western values?

Or maybe more just a phenomenon particular popular with the most violent and least intelligent regressive common denominator in these societies?


So I'm just curious where are all these US-created terror groups?

It was previously noted that conservative favorite of ISIS formed in the power vacuum created by the US, not unlike how if american society collapsed the backwards types might very well win out and create something similar of their own.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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There's a pretty well known epidemiology based study published in the Lancet. I assume you know how to use google.



You're simply ignorant about how words work. Most words don't directly reference physical objects, and abstract concepts are subject to rhetorical definition. Eg. when the US explodes a bomb that kills civilians, it's not terrorism, the term is defined to only apply when someone generally poor preferably not white does it.

Ignorance can be fixed, though not always successfully.

So, you wont post your sources, I have to go looking for your sources.

By definition, the killing of civilians is not terrorism if it does not fit the definition. That has nothing to do with the morality or legality of the action, it just means it falls under a different definition.

Okay, lets do the false pedantic waltz about the meaning of words.
Rhetorical
-of, relating to, or concerned with the art of rhetoric.
-expressed in terms intended to persuade or impress.
-(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

Rhetoric
-the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.
-language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.

Definition
-a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
-the degree of distinctness in outline of an object, image, or sound, especially of an image in a photograph or on a screen

The word definition has nothing to do with persuasion. I gave the example of a banana because it too is not persuasive. Adding a modifying tord like rhetorical to the idea of something that is not about persuasion does not make sense. It is true that rhetorical is an adjective which inherently are made to modify things like nouns, but in this case the modification does not work. The two things are not mutually exclusive, but they are not related either. Rhetorical does not in any way describe the noun in any way.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Would someone like that agree modern state sponsored mass murder is a natural offshoot of western values?

For that to be true, you would have to look around and see if other cultures that are not western do the same thing. That would first mean you would need to define what western values are, which you wont.

But, would you say China or Russia are western in their ideals? What about African countries? They sure do seem to kill lots of people.

Or maybe more just a phenomenon particular popular with the most violent and least intelligent regressive common denominator in these societies?

Are you talking about murder in a society, or state sponsored mass murder?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Would someone like that agree modern state sponsored mass murder is a natural offshoot of western values?

State sponsored mass murder existed in the Bible and before the Bible and after the Bible. It seems to have always existed.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
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State sponsored mass murder existed in the Bible and before the Bible and after the Bible. It seems to have always existed.

Kinda doesn't help when cultures follow the Bible (or whatever Abrahamic offshoot), seeing as how it commands, uh, all that nasty stuff. Rape, slaughter, sex slavery, genocide, slavery, etc.

Having a couple thousand years of adherence, to a bloodthirsty, bronze age text, isn't going to exactly give birth to decent history.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
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Kinda doesn't help when cultures follow the Bible (or whatever Abrahamic offshoot), seeing as how it commands, uh, all that nasty stuff. Rape, slaughter, sex slavery, genocide, slavery, etc.

Having a couple thousand years of adherence, to a bloodthirsty, bronze age text, isn't going to exactly give birth to decent history.

No no no no no. Religion can only make people do good things. It cant make them want to do bad things. Duh.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
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Kinda doesn't help when cultures follow the Bible (or whatever Abrahamic offshoot), seeing as how it commands, uh, all that nasty stuff. Rape, slaughter, sex slavery, genocide, slavery, etc.

Having a couple thousand years of adherence, to a bloodthirsty, bronze age text, isn't going to exactly give birth to decent history.

Wow.... you think Christian nations today are rife with what you claim is "commanded"... Where on earth do you come up with this stuff?

More and more I'm convinced of the link between the far left and orthodox islam, they push all the same agendas. o_O
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Wow.... you think Christian nations today are rife with what you claim is "commanded"... Where on earth do you come up with this stuff?

More and more I'm convinced of the link between the far left and orthodox islam, they push all the same agendas. o_O

Hey Blue, slow down a little. Reread what he said and see how he is talking about the history of Christian nations. He is 100% correct that western Christian nations have some pretty fucked up history.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,495
572
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Wow.... you think Christian nations today are rife with what you claim is "commanded"... Where on earth do you come up with this stuff?

More and more I'm convinced of the link between the far left and orthodox islam, they push all the same agendas. o_O

I'd advise you read what is actually typed, rather than what you think should have been typed to fit in your "If he said this, I'd say this, aww yeah that'd be great" monologue.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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State sponsored mass murder existed in the Bible and before the Bible and after the Bible. It seems to have always existed.

So why can't that guy you were quoting figure out the same about other human behavior and the Quran?

You might recall that I previously argued that people tend to rationalize their decisions after the fact, religion or not. Now this isn't to say religious works have no effect, but they don't really work how the religious or anti-religious both think they do.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,223
153
106
Kinda doesn't help when cultures follow the Bible (or whatever Abrahamic offshoot), seeing as how it commands, uh, all that nasty stuff. Rape, slaughter, sex slavery, genocide, slavery, etc.

Okay... tell me how I should interpret what you said. You're implying that islam is just as bad as Christianity again (you do this often.)

I'm sorry, there's no evidence to back up your claim. None. Tons of world-event evidence to prove the opposite. *shrug*
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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So, you wont post your sources, I have to go looking for your sources.

My bad for assuming you know how to use google. Here you go: source.

By definition, the killing of civilians is not terrorism if it does not fit the definition. That has nothing to do with the morality or legality of the action, it just means it falls under a different definition.

Okay, lets do the false pedantic waltz about the meaning of words.
Rhetorical
-of, relating to, or concerned with the art of rhetoric.
-expressed in terms intended to persuade or impress.
-(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

Rhetoric
-the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.
-language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.

Definition
-a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
-the degree of distinctness in outline of an object, image, or sound, especially of an image in a photograph or on a screen

The word definition has nothing to do with persuasion. I gave the example of a banana because it too is not persuasive. Adding a modifying tord like rhetorical to the idea of something that is not about persuasion does not make sense. It is true that rhetorical is an adjective which inherently are made to modify things like nouns, but in this case the modification does not work. The two things are not mutually exclusive, but they are not related either. Rhetorical does not in any way describe the noun in any way.

It's actually hard to tell if you're really this thick or having a laugh, but the statement above this makes me want to give you some benefit of the doubt.

You gave the example of a banana because you think it's representative of how other words work, that you can also look up the picture of them in a dictionary to match the thing in the real world. I actually wrote half of an exposition explaining how language actually works in some nuance, but then realized that instead of making this even more confusing for you let's instead roll with that trite outlook on words.

Imagine that you're a wannabe leader trying to build some support, so in essence followers to rally around some cause. Generally it's easiest to get dumb people to mindlessly follow causes, and because they're dumb the cause can't be very complicated. So what you do is take some characteristic of prospective followers, let's say white/western/christian, which naturally provides a contrasting dichotomy to some other group. Notice that dichotomy also works in reverse, aka vice versa. Then you propagate that said others are the worstest people of all time, and put pictures of them in dictionaries with all the bad words that can be associated. For example, one side might use terrorist, the other infidel and so on. It all has little to do with the complex reality, but remember the simpler the better.

That way to get their pea brains to click however you want, whenever the others do anything uppity/untoward, just point to the dictionary and watch the lemmings get all angry with you conveniently there to tell them what to do.

Before you get all angry at me for whatever reason, please note I'm just the messenger explaining how the leadership-peabrain interaction works.
 
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