Affirmative Action: Revisited

[SheHateMe]

It doesnt look like that she was a victim of AA but rather her grades were not good enough. Still this AA has to be ended though.

Don't let me dig up that thread and find you in there whining about how she was a victim of AA.

I bet there's a 98% chance you did, though.

 

[Incorruptible]

Don't let me dig up that thread and find you in there whining about how she was a victim of AA.

I bet there's a 98% chance you did, though.

The story was wrong and it made it sound that way. Now there are more facts to the story. And by the way there were still some minorities who got into the school with lower grades.

 

[SheHateMe]

And by the way there were still some minorities who got into the school with lower grades.

Yea, 5. How many whites got in? 42.

42, unqualified students who had worse grades than Abigail.


:whiste:

 

[werepossum]

Whatever may be the case with this particular incident... I don't think any honest person can deny that affirmative action is deeply wrong. It is government-endorsed, sometimes mandated racial discrimination. Pure and simple.

Of course affirmative action is deeply wrong. It's just that we don't have an affordable way to address the problem without damaging someone else. Look at the effects on blacks of segregation laws. Can you really argue that having a permanent underclass based on race is not even more deeply wrong?

Seems to me that UT took an incredibly bright tract on affirmative action by restricting 92% of its spots to the top 10% in every school. Maybe your parents can't afford private school or even to live in a decent school district - maybe their education only qualified them to work as maids or janitors. But if you work your ass off you can be in the top 10% of your shitty school and still get into a great university even though your SAT scores probably aren't competitive. It'll be harder to graduate - a LOT harder - but can be done with determination and really hard work. What system could be more fair?

Her race card trick backfired. Can't claim the darkies kept you out of school when it was actually whitey.

Sure you can. You just can't win your hundred bucks.

we still need segregated bus seating. last time i got on the guy next to me stunk of shit and beer. really we should force smelly people to the back. ugh.

I will support segregation by body odor AND level of intoxication if you'll support segregation of crying babies.

 

[werepossum]

Funny how Asian students did not and still do not need AA/set aside programs or any excuses yet they are still kicking butts in SAT/ACT tests and college admission. Why is that?

Tiger moms. This is possible for anyone, anywhere. But it's a lot easier to change the system than to change the culture.

 

[wirednuts]

affirmative action has nothing to do with anyone working today. it needs to go away.

oh, and so does this stupid bitch too.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Funny how Asian students did not and still do not need AA/set aside programs or any excuses yet they are still kicking butts in SAT/ACT tests and college admission. Why is that?

They weren't enslaved then segregated then discriminated against until recently.

But as an Asian, I was able to benefit from AA when in college. I was even recruited by companies that came to recruit students of color specifically.

 

[SheHateMe]

They weren't enslaved then segregated then discriminated against until recently.

But as an Asian, I was able to benefit from AA when in college. I was even recruited by companies that came to recruit students of color specifically.

DCal430 made the same claim about Asians not needing/not receiving a leg up due to affirmative action.

I have yet to see a source that says Asians aren't targeted in Diversity programs at Universities and in the workplace.

 

[Capt Caveman]

DCal430 made the same claim about Asians not needing/not receiving a leg up due to affirmative action.

I have yet to see a source that says Asians aren't targeted in Diversity programs at Universities and in the workplace.

He's a retard and should be ignored. I was a business major and part of the School of Management. We had a dept for Students of Color. I used to be a tutor for the dept with an indian girl and we tutored other SOM Students of Color. All minorities were included, even Asians. A number of companies even funded scholarships for SOM Students of Color. And yes, Asians could apply for them.

 

[Svnla]

Tiger moms. This is possible for anyone, anywhere. But it's a lot easier to change the system than to change the culture.

I think it is more likely about the desire to do well in school. I have been to various Asian communities (different ethic groups) in the US and in Asia. Everywhere that I have been, I saw the desire/craving to do well in school. Do well in school = good/reason to be praise upon from everyone in the community. In the US, within certain group, doing well in school = sold out/acting white/uncle tom/corn ball brother/not keep it real/fill in the blank nasty words. No wonder which group is doing much better in school than which.

They weren't enslaved then segregated then discriminated against until recently.

But as an Asian, I was able to benefit from AA when in college. I was even recruited by companies that came to recruit students of color specifically.

And you vs. how many Asian college students that made it without AA/set aside programs?

See how they still able overcome discrimination in college admission instead of whine/bitch/make excuses = http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...a-in-the-ivy-league/discrimination-is-obvious

http://www.usnews.com/education/art...-colleges-discriminate-against-asian-students

For one thing, Asians, who make up less than 5 percent of the U.S. population, often make up nearly a third of the applicant pools to elite colleges. And they generally account for at least 10 percent of the student body. Meanwhile, low-income students and minorities make up disproportionately smaller shares of the applicant pools and, often, student populations. Harvard reported last year, for example, that 15 percent of its undergraduates were Asian, but only 7 percent were black, and just 6 percent were Hispanic.

I said it before and I will say it again. Let end AA/set aside/prefer treatment for EVERYONE. Period. Then all students will be judge based on standardize test scores and HS grades.

 

[CLite]

Seems to me that UT took an incredibly bright tract on affirmative action by restricting 92% of its spots to the top 10% in every school. Maybe your parents can't afford private school or even to live in a decent school district - maybe their education only qualified them to work as maids or janitors. But if you work your ass off you can be in the top 10% of your shitty school and still get into a great university even though your SAT scores probably aren't competitive. It'll be harder to graduate - a LOT harder - but can be done with determination and really hard work. What system could be more fair?

Yeah, I imagine by and large if you look at colleges that try to institute diversity and compared class rank versus the different groups you would get a lot closer comparison than all of the studies based on SAT's. It's not like these colleges are just saying "I want diversity let's go drive into a black neighborhood and round up some blacks". They are reviewing a number of factors, most prominently being how they did in their individual high school.

People tend to dramatically over-estimate affirmative action, it is not required in college (by law) and just gives colleges the ability to consider campus diversity as a quality attribute to have.

 

[CLite]

In the US, within certain group, doing well in school = sold out/acting white/uncle tom/corn ball brother/not keep it real/fill in the blank nasty words. No wonder which group is doing much better in school than which.

..

Then all students will be judge based on standardize test scores and HS grades.

So rolling with your poorly veiled racism.....

If someone was in the top 10% under such a scenario but had lower than average standardized test scores they should not be considered in the same light as someone with higher scores and 10% in a more stable schooling environment?

 

[Svnla]

So rolling with your poorly veiled racism.....

If someone was in the top 10% under such a scenario but had lower than average standardized test scores they should not be considered in the same light as someone with higher scores and 10% in a more stable schooling environment?

1. If you quote me, you need to quote the whole thing for context instead of pick and choose.

2. Did I state anything that was not true in my post? If so, point that out instead of "whaaaaa...whhhaaaa....so racism....whhhaaaaa". :whiste: Funny how you were unable to dispute the content of my post, backed up by well know sources.

I said what I already said. Everyone will be judge on the same standard. Everyone!!! Not hard to understand.

 

[waggy]

I will support segregation by body odor AND level of intoxication if you'll support segregation of crying babies.

OH no shit i agree!

Last time I got on a bus, I fell asleep and woke up to two men fingering my nose.

sorry about that. you had something sticking out of your nose :whiste:

 

[SheHateMe]

So rolling with your poorly veiled racism.....

Don't engage the child.


We all know what he means by "certain group".




Anyway, if UT is willing to auto-admit anyone graduating in the top 10% of their class, then test scores shouldn't be a factor. But then again, it would not be fair for instance if I, coming from a poor school district like Detroit, graduated at the top of my class with ease while someone like my little sister for example went to school in a wealthy district where there was greater competition for that top spot. Lets say I scored 200 points lower on my SAT than my little sister, but we both graduated on top and got into UT. It is possible that either of us pushed someone else out that just missed the 10% status.

I'm not sure if "fair" should be the word to use..but I am basically saying that some people would have to work super hard for that top 10% spot while others don't have many people to compete with.

Even so, UT can do what it wants with its 10% policy.

 

[werepossum]

Last time I got on a bus, I fell asleep and woke up to two men fingering my nose.

In their defense, a lot of men have trouble distinguishing between noses and vaginae. Apparently.

I think it is more likely about the desire to do well in school. I have been to various Asian communities (different ethic groups) in the US and in Asia. Everywhere that I have been, I saw the desire/craving to do well in school. Do well in school = good/reason to be praise upon from everyone in the community. In the US, within certain group, doing well in school = sold out/acting white/uncle tom/corn ball brother/not keep it real/fill in the blank nasty words. No wonder which group is doing much better in school than which.
SNIP
I said it before and I will say it again. Let end AA/set aside/prefer treatment for EVERYONE. Period. Then all students will be judge based on standardize test scores and HS grades.

Same thing. Tiger moms build the culture that says not excelling in school is unacceptable; therefore Asians as a group excel in school. Not every Asian has a Tiger mom, of course, but overall that culture supports excelling in school. Among blacks, you are correct that far too many scorn excelling in school as selling out, acting out, etc. In an ideal world we'd change that culture, but changing a culture from outside is extremely difficult. What we CAN do is to provide a chance for black kids who are stuck in poor schools but either have their own version of a Tiger mom or decide for themselves that excelling in school is the key to a good life. Thus accepting the top 10% of every school, even if their standardized scores are not up to speed with the majority. You may not be so extraordinary as to overcome your failing inner city school and achieve parity, but if you excel within that failing inner city school you'll earn a chance to compete at high levels, with the understanding that competing will be much harder than if you had enjoyed a good primary education, educated parents, money for tutors, etc.

The ideal thing would be to allow school choice, dollars following the student, so that parents and children committed to education could escape failing schools altogether. That however is not an idea Democrats will allow to happen.

Yeah, I imagine by and large if you look at colleges that try to institute diversity and compared class rank versus the different groups you would get a lot closer comparison than all of the studies based on SAT's. It's not like these colleges are just saying "I want diversity let's go drive into a black neighborhood and round up some blacks". They are reviewing a number of factors, most prominently being how they did in their individual high school.

People tend to dramatically over-estimate affirmative action, it is not required in college (by law) and just gives colleges the ability to consider campus diversity as a quality attribute to have.

Agreed.

 

[werepossum]

Don't engage the child.


We all know what he means by "certain group".




Anyway, if UT is willing to auto-admit anyone graduating in the top 10% of their class, then test scores shouldn't be a factor. But then again, it would not be fair for instance if I, coming from a poor school district like Detroit, graduated at the top of my class with ease while someone like my little sister for example went to school in a wealthy district where there was greater competition for that top spot. Lets say I scored 200 points lower on my SAT than my little sister, but we both graduated on top and got into UT. It is possible that either of us pushed someone else out that just missed the 10% status.

I'm not sure if "fair" should be the word to use..but I am basically saying that some people would have to work super hard for that top 10% spot while others don't have many people to compete with.

Even so, UT can do what it wants with its 10% policy.

But it all balances out. If you went to a crap school then making that top 10% would be easy, but the university work would be incredibly difficult. For your little sister making that top 10% would be much more difficult, but the actual university work would be much easier and getting into another university on the basis of her SAT scores would be much easier.

 

[nehalem256]

Same thing. Tiger moms build the culture that says not excelling in school is unacceptable; therefore Asians as a group excel in school. Not every Asian has a Tiger mom, of course, but overall that culture supports excelling in school. Among blacks, you are correct that far too many scorn excelling in school as selling out, acting out, etc. In an ideal world we'd change that culture, but changing a culture from outside is extremely difficult. What we CAN do is to provide a chance for black kids who are stuck in poor schools but either have their own version of a Tiger mom or decide for themselves that excelling in school is the key to a good life. Thus accepting the top 10% of every school, even if their standardized scores are not up to speed with the majority. You may not be so extraordinary as to overcome your failing inner city school and achieve parity, but if you excel within that failing inner city school you'll earn a chance to compete at high levels,

None of this suggests anything to do with race.

with the understanding that competing will be much harder than if you had enjoyed a good primary education, educated parents, money for tutors, etc.[/B]

Special admissions based on lower economic status can make sense based on the reasons you pointed out. But again this has nothing to do with race.

 

[werepossum]

None of this suggests anything to do with race.



Special admissions based on lower economic status can make sense based on the reasons you pointed out. But again this has nothing to do with race.

True; it's culture. However, UT's admissions policy for 92% of its freshmen has nothing to do with race either, but merely with performance inside your particular school. For the remaining 8%, statistics indicate that race does not play a significant role here either, or at least not in a way that specifically benefits blacks or penalizes whites.

 

[rpanic]

I remember hearing about this while back. I think part of the issue was that they take the top 10% from every school but one schools top 10% might be less qualified from another schools 10%. It’s a lot easier to be in the top 10% in a failing school.

 

[Svnla]

So I see that other poster(s) are still unable to dispute my previous post with facts, therefore, have no choice but name calling and labeling. All else fail, pull the race card. What else is new. I am still waiting for those "oh so horrible" PMs to be post in public. :biggrin:

Same thing. Tiger moms build the culture that says not excelling in school is unacceptable; therefore Asians as a group excel in school. Not every Asian has a Tiger mom, of course, but overall that culture supports excelling in school. Among blacks, you are correct that far too many scorn excelling in school as selling out, acting out, etc. In an ideal world we'd change that culture, but changing a culture from outside is extremely difficult. What we CAN do is to provide a chance for black kids who are stuck in poor schools but either have their own version of a Tiger mom or decide for themselves that excelling in school is the key to a good life. Thus accepting the top 10% of every school, even if their standardized scores are not up to speed with the majority. You may not be so extraordinary as to overcome your failing inner city school and achieve parity, but if you excel within that failing inner city school you'll earn a chance to compete at high levels, with the understanding that competing will be much harder than if you had enjoyed a good primary education, educated parents, money for tutors, etc.

It is NOT like Asian students went to rich district schools, therefore, became successful. Many of them, especially the recent immigrants (dirt poor and barely able to speak English), went to the same sh1tty schools as other minorities but were able to overcome obstacles.

I have no problem with helping out such as after school program, tutoring, etc. for those that really want to learn. As long as we don't treat everyone the same as I stated in the above post, and still have AA/set aside programs/etc., we will always have problems/lawsuits like Ms. Fisher (perception or reality, regardless).

 

[werepossum]

SNIP

It is NOT like Asian students went to rich district schools ==> became successful. Many of them went to the same sh1tty schools but were able to overcome obstacles.

I have no problem with helping out such as after school program, tutoring, etc. for those that really want to learn. As long as we don't treat everyone the same as I stated in the above post, and still have AA/set aside programs/etc., we will always have problems/lawsuits like Ms. Fisher (perception or reality, regardless).

I agree with both of those statements. Black immigrants also dodge this culture issue by the way, seeing America as a land of opportunity and education as the way to capitalize on that opportunity, although no culture does this to the extent the Asians do. (Which is odd given that "Asian culture" covers some very diverse cultures totaling perhaps a quarter of the world.) But much as I'd like to fix the culture, I don't know a way to do so. Programs such as UT's admission policy, saving those who come from failing schools but willing to put forth the effort, are about the best I can conceive at fighting against a permanent minority underclass without unduly disadvantaging the majority. Tutoring is great, but there aren't enough qualified volunteers and any government funded program will quickly degenerate into just another jobs program which aims to benefit the employed, not the kids.

 

[Svnla]

I agree with both of those statements. Black immigrants also dodge this culture issue by the way, seeing America as a land of opportunity and education as the way to capitalize on that opportunity, although no culture does this to the extent the Asians do. (Which is odd given that "Asian culture" covers some very diverse cultures totaling perhaps a quarter of the world.) But much as I'd like to fix the culture, I don't know a way to do so. Programs such as UT's admission policy, saving those who come from failing schools but willing to put forth the effort, are about the best I can conceive at fighting against a permanent minority underclass without unduly disadvantaging the majority. Tutoring is great, but there aren't enough qualified volunteers and any government funded program will quickly degenerate into just another jobs program which aims to benefit the employed, not the kids.

Here is a perfect example = http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/pa...ctful--tough-love-or-too-much--184517447.html


Asian parents and other good parents would not think twice about punishment for this child behavior, yet in the article, there were more than a few who criticized this parents. WTH?


"Spare the rod, spoil the child" - old proverb.

I do not have the perfect solution either but the status quo is NOT working.

 

[SheHateMe]

But it all balances out. If you went to a crap school then making that top 10% would be easy, but the university work would be incredibly difficult. For your little sister making that top 10% would be much more difficult, but the actual university work would be much easier and getting into another university on the basis of her SAT scores would be much easier.

That's true. I am just saying that this auto-admit thing could potentially be unfair to students in schools with a competitive student body vs school without one.

For example, making the top 10% in my HS was easy since many of the students in my graduating class didn't give a shit about the work.


But then again, it really DOES come back to bite you in the ass at some point if you weren't challenged.

 

[CLite]

I think probably the best argument for eliminating affirmative action is to undercut racists who like to belittle the accomplishments of minorities in the professional world as being given their positions.

In this particular study the majority of students accepted outside the 10% quota were white in a ratio excess that of the demographic make-up of Texas. No one enrolled in UT currently benefits from affirmative action, yet such accusations will pour in from those so bitter and upset with their own lives that they have to lash out at others.