Aesop & The Women of Iraq

[Stratum9]

I was just watching the news about how, now that Saddam's regime is out, the 60% of the population being Sheit Musslem want the American's to leave so they can form a fundamentalist religious government. Millions of Sheits turned up for pilgramages and a rally. They then did a segment on how this would possibly affect the role of women in Iraq.

Under Saddam's rule, despite his cruelty to his people, women were allowed a more liberal role in society. Two out of five students in universities are women and much of the medical profession are made up of women. But under a fundamentalist religious government this could mean that women will take a big step back in thier new freedoms as the Sheit Musslem religion places women in a subserviant role.

This all remided me of an Aesop Fable The Fox and the Hedgehog:

A Fox, while crossing a river, was driven into a narrow gorge by the rushing water and lay there a long time, unable to get out and covered with countless horseflies. A wandering Hedgehog spied the Fox and, taking pity on him, asked if he should drive away the flies.

"Please, no," cried the Fox. "The flies who are on me are already full; if you remove them, a swarm of hungry ones will come and leave not a drop of blood in my body!"

--When we throw off rulers who have already made the most of us, we lay ourselves open to others who will surely make us bleed more freely.



I'm not really driving at a point here, just making an interesting observation. I feel for the Iraqi women and wish people were not so deluded by religion.

 

[Tripleshot]

A democracy with equal representatation and tolerence of all the party's religous beliefs is what is needed, and I believe that is what will happen. Anything less would not surive western scrutiny and could leave Iraq as vulnarable as when madman saddam took control.

It just aint gunna happen.:beer:

 

[Alphazero]

I really don't see a stable, true democracy happening in Iraq. Setting up a democratic government takes immense effort and a very long time. Pressure on the US to pull out coupled with Islamist politics will leave a shaky pseudo-democracy that could easily collapse into fundamentalist state.

 

[konichiwa]

Seems like the worst possible way to attempt to set up a democratic government is to force a country that was previously ruled by dictators and autocrats for hundreds of years (even more) and suddenly try and make it a democracy. I hope it works in Iraq, but I have brooding doubts

 

[LunarRay]

We find it easy to see things through our own eyes and are unable to see things through the eyes of another.
In Iraq or Iran or Boston... people live as their enviornment provides and they do so reasonably well. In Ireland, for instance, divorce was not permitted until recently... if it passed the Dial... I'm not sure. The point is that here divorce is accepted as a right and in Ireland, a reasonably intellectual nation, divorce is taboo... because the Church says so.... They like the Wolf and Eagle mate for life... most do anyhow. Why can't we just let the Iraqi live like the Iraqi wishes and give them that FREEDOM and not try to first convince them that their notion of Freedom is absurd.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: HJD1
We find it easy to see things through our own eyes and are unable to see things through the eyes of another.
In Iraq or Iran or Boston... people live as their enviornment provides and they do so reasonably well. In Ireland, for instance, divorce was not permitted until recently... if it passed the Dial... I'm not sure. The point is that here divorce is accepted as a right and in Ireland, a reasonably intellectual nation, divorce is taboo... because the Church says so.... They like the Wolf and Eagle mate for life... most do anyhow. Why can't we just let the Iraqi live like the Iraqi wishes and give them that FREEDOM and not try to first convince them that their notion of Freedom is absurd.

You have a valid point in stating that different cultures have different values. However, the idea of letting "the Iraqi live like the Iraqi wishes" is misguided, however noble. There are too many different Iraqis with extreme differing opinions as to what kind of government they want.

Theoretically, the U.S. government was established, in part, to protect the minority from the majority. Yet this is precisely the kind of government abhorrent to many arabs. Look at the recent Shiite demonstrations calling for an Islamic religion-based Iraqi government. Guess whose religion they want in charge? It sure ain't the Sunni's. God help the Kurds if the Shiites get their way.

My point is that if the U.S. were to hold an election in Iraq tomorrow, I think the Iraqis would end up with a repressive Islam-based government that would violently persecute any non-Islamic, and probably any non-Shiite. A democracy does not just happen overnight. There are underlying cultural values that must be assimilated before a democracy can function, and I don't think the Iraqis have these values yet (i.e. tolerance for differing viewpoints).

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: HJD1
We find it easy to see things through our own eyes and are unable to see things through the eyes of another.
In Iraq or Iran or Boston... people live as their enviornment provides and they do so reasonably well. In Ireland, for instance, divorce was not permitted until recently... if it passed the Dial... I'm not sure. The point is that here divorce is accepted as a right and in Ireland, a reasonably intellectual nation, divorce is taboo... because the Church says so.... They like the Wolf and Eagle mate for life... most do anyhow. Why can't we just let the Iraqi live like the Iraqi wishes and give them that FREEDOM and not try to first convince them that their notion of Freedom is absurd.

You have a valid point in stating that different cultures have different values. However, the idea of letting "the Iraqi live like the Iraqi wishes" is misguided, however noble. There are too many different Iraqis with extreme differing opinions as to what kind of government they want.

Theoretically, the U.S. government was established, in part, to protect the minority from the majority. Yet this is precisely the kind of government abhorrent to many arabs. Look at the recent Shiite demonstrations calling for an Islamic religion-based Iraqi government. Guess whose religion they want in charge? It sure ain't the Sunni's. God help the Kurds if the Shiites get their way.

My point is that if the U.S. were to hold an election in Iraq tomorrow, I think the Iraqis would end up with a repressive Islam-based government that would violently persecute any non-Islamic, and probably any non-Shiite. A democracy does not just happen overnight. There are underlying cultural values that must be assimilated before a democracy can function, and I don't think the Iraqis have these values yet (i.e. tolerance for differing viewpoints).

Well... I see no reason for the Suni and the Kurd and the Shiite to be made to live in harmony when it cannot be. Like the wolf living in the chicken coop or the New Yorker living in Texas.. They each have values that rule their lives so... set up Kurdistan, Suniville and Shiitetania. The Iranian Kurds the Turkey Kurds and the Iraqi Kurds all live together and so on... The Palestinian issue the same. After all this occurs then you sort out the oil.. and everyone lives according to their wish. Mountbatten and friends sorted similar issues out 50 or so years ago..

 

[CaptnKirk]

.........the Women of Iraq.
It's an American Tradition to bring back a War Bride.
Afganistan was a mixed bag.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: HJD1

[/b][/i]Well... I see no reason for the Suni and the Kurd and the Shiite to be made to live in harmony when it cannot be. Like the wolf living in the chicken coop or the New Yorker living in Texas.. They each have values that rule their lives so... set up Kurdistan, Suniville and Shiitetania. The Iranian Kurds the Turkey Kurds and the Iraqi Kurds all live together and so on... The Palestinian issue the same. After all this occurs then you sort out the oil.. and everyone lives according to their wish. Mountbatten and friends sorted similar issues out 50 or so years ago..

Well, I agree that if that such a division would probably be good based on the saying, "Good fences make good neighbors." But I don't see those three factions getting together and hammering out a deal like that without outside intervention. Also, what about the other people in Iraq who aren't Shiite, Sunni, or Kurdish? BTW, I'm not familiar with your Mountbatten reference.

Plus, who's gonna get the oil fields in that scenario? And, of course, an Iraq divided is weaker militarily and economically than an Iraq united. I wouldn't doubt that Turkey or Syria or Iran would take the opportunity to invade if the U.S. left the area and promised not to intervene in future affairs. I can't say I have a solution, but I don't think just pulling our forces out of there and leaving them alone is a good idea.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: HJD1

[/b][/i]Well... I see no reason for the Suni and the Kurd and the Shiite to be made to live in harmony when it cannot be. Like the wolf living in the chicken coop or the New Yorker living in Texas.. They each have values that rule their lives so... set up Kurdistan, Suniville and Shiitetania. The Iranian Kurds the Turkey Kurds and the Iraqi Kurds all live together and so on... The Palestinian issue the same. After all this occurs then you sort out the oil.. and everyone lives according to their wish. Mountbatten and friends sorted similar issues out 50 or so years ago..

Well, I agree that if that such a division would probably be good based on the saying, "Good fences make good neighbors." But I don't see those three factions getting together and hammering out a deal like that without outside intervention. Also, what about the other people in Iraq who aren't Shiite, Sunni, or Kurdish? BTW, I'm not familiar with your Mountbatten reference.

Plus, who's gonna get the oil fields in that scenario? And, of course, an Iraq divided is weaker militarily and economically than an Iraq united. I wouldn't doubt that Turkey or Syria or Iran would take the opportunity to invade if the U.S. left the area and promised not to intervene in future affairs. I can't say I have a solution, but I don't think just pulling our forces out of there and leaving them alone is a good idea.

Lord Mountbatten was given plenipotentiary power by the Crown (Great Brittian) to sort out the Muslim/Hindu problem in India leading up to their independence. The Muslim Indians hated the Hindu and etc. It is where Pakistan came from.
Re: the other people in Iraq.. well you can't set up too many countries but if you can sort out say 95% of the people then the rest will have to go where they feel most comfortable. Turkey would be opposed as would Iran but, Kashmire and the other "stans" probably would be ok with it. Beside, No solution that leaves the Suni,Shiite and Kurd in the same country will work... Even in My Ireland the Catholic and Protestant are at odds all the time and mainly over religion...
The oil issue is the easy part... Pump it out sell it and split the money based on some equitable formula.. maybe % population at a point in time. A treaty like NATO would protect the region against agressor nations... and it would be a UN effort with agreement from all the parties..