Advice on which LCD HDTV to pick.

fuzzybabybunny

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So my family's in the market for an LCD HDTV. Sears has it's Friends and Family sale coming up, where I can get 5% off a set.

To me 120Hz vs. 60Hz is night and day. My eyes are very sensitive and can immediately detect the increased smoothness, but sometimes also the increased shakiness if that's the camerawork's "style."

Samsung LNT4069F, 120Hz, 40", $1100 after tax
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05771056000P

Samsung LN40A530, 60Hz, 40", will probably be $800 on Black Friday
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05771068000P

Samsung LN46A530, 60Hz, 46", will probably be $1000 on Black Friday
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05771098000P

Samsung LN40A650, 120Hz, 40", the holy grail, but unaffordable at $1800
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05771088000P

So.... older set with 120Hz for $1100?
Older 40" without 120Hz for $800?
Larger older 46" without 120Hz for $1000?
 

Koing

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Oct 11, 2000
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Go have a look at them in the store. I know it's not ideal with their ultra jacked up contrast and brightness settings. But tune it down and see which colours are best for you.

I don't like the colours that LCD produce and am going to get a plasma instead.

Koing
 

krotchy

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Mar 29, 2006
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I personally wouldn't buy last years model TV from anyone. The 120Hz from Samsung (and everyone else) was alot buggier last year with more significant Triple ball effect reports and whatnot than this years implementation. Does it really have to be sears? The 40A650 can easily be found for much less than 1800 through amazon and other sources. Go look at them in store then search online for a reputable company selling the TV you want at the right price.
 

erwos

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Apr 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
To me 120Hz vs. 60Hz is night and day. My eyes are very sensitive and can immediately detect the increased smoothness, but sometimes also the increased shakiness if that's the camerawork's "style."
Hmm. I think you might not know what you're looking at, or at least that's my suspicion.

The true advantage of 120hz is that it will allow you to pipe in 24hz content (eg, movies) and display it at a non-fractional multiple of 24hz (namely, 5). This has the effect of eliminating the 3:2 pull-down judder you'd see on 60hz sets, which have to drop frames to make that 24hz content play on them. Ergo, if you don't have a source of 24hz content (eg, something that plays back at 720p24 or 1080p24), 120hz isn't doing that much on this score.

However, that kind of judder is _very_ subtle, even for eyes that are sensitive. What I suspect you're really noticing are the motion enhancer features that are generally on 120hz sets. What motion enhancer does is to add interpolated frames between "real" frames. This gives the video an _unnatural_ smoothing effect (aka, "the soap opera effect") and often introduces the shakiness you're talking about. This is good for sports events and the odd TV show, but I personally don't see a lot of value in it and keep it off. It's worthless for gaming and such, because it introduces a ton of lag.

You'll need to check to see if my guess is correct, but it's something to consider.
 

kalrith

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Aug 22, 2005
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What's the seating distance? If it's much farther than 6 feet, then you'll want the extra size from a 46" (52" even better, but likely out of your price range).

Edit: I clicked send too soon and meant to add the following.

I would go for the LN46A550 at Amazon for $1225 shipped. If you could swing a bit more, the LN46A650 is $1529 shipped at Amazon.
 

Capt Caveman

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Jan 30, 2005
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My brother has a second generation 120hz Samsung and does not use the 120hz feature do to the stuttering. I believe only Sony has implemented a proper 120hz system.
 

s44

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Oct 13, 2006
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Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
My brother has a second generation 120hz Samsung and does not use the 120hz feature do to the stuttering. I believe only Sony has implemented a proper 120hz system.
If you mean 5:5, I believe this is correct.
 

vi edit

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If you want smooth, buy a plasma. It's as simple as that. You can easily buy in your price range.
 

erwos

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Originally posted by: s44
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
My brother has a second generation 120hz Samsung and does not use the 120hz feature do to the stuttering. I believe only Sony has implemented a proper 120hz system.
If you mean 5:5, I believe this is correct.
Kuros can do 3:3 to display 24hz material at the 72hz native refresh rate, too.

But, yes, I love my Sony A3000-series DLP with 120hz and 5:5. :)
 

kalrith

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Aug 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: vi edit
If you want smooth, buy a plasma. It's as simple as that. You can easily buy in your price range.

I agree.

You can find some incredible plasmas in that price range and even move up a size: Panasonic Viera TH-50PZ80U 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV for $1323 with free white-glove delivery. With white-glove delivery they'll bring it into the house, unbox it, set it on your TV stand, and allow you to connect one input to make sure it works before you sign to accept it. Panasonic's concierge service is second to none BTW.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Just to clarify, I checked out all of the TVs in person at Sears. I really liked the 120Hz sets because the motion was incredibly fluid and lifelike and the image was exceedingly crisp. I could see the movie actors as real people, blemishes and all. The movie was Iron Man.

I don't think regular 60Hz sets are smooth at all. I don't think movies projected in an actual movie theater are smooth either. I would need to go look at a plasma to compare, but I'm not sure if I'm prepared for the disadvantages of plasma - higher power bill, burn in, and I heard someone say that they die if tilted more than 20 degrees off axis?

But if plasma is playing a 24fps movie at 24fps.... it won't be smooth to my eyes.
 

ZetaEpyon

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Jun 13, 2000
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Well, based on that, what you like is almost certainly the motion interpolation, not necessarily the 120Hz itself.

If that's the case, you should play around with the settings on a few at the store (if you can), because the motion interpolation is a little different between brands. You might like Samsung better than Sony, or vice versa.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Yeah, I definitely like the motion interpolation. I think those extra artificially made frames add a lot to the feeling of whatever I'm watching. And I agree about the implementation across brands. I personally liked the Samsung 1st gen, the 2nd gen was better on the 650 series, didn't get to see a Sony (I'm assuming it is incredibly expensive), but I saw a Vizio and it couldn't even compare.
 

kalrith

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Aug 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
Just to clarify, I checked out all of the TVs in person at Sears. I really liked the 120Hz sets because the motion was incredibly fluid and lifelike and the image was exceedingly crisp. I could see the movie actors as real people, blemishes and all. The movie was Iron Man.

I don't think regular 60Hz sets are smooth at all. I don't think movies projected in an actual movie theater are smooth either. I would need to go look at a plasma to compare, but I'm not sure if I'm prepared for the disadvantages of plasma - higher power bill, burn in, and I heard someone say that they die if tilted more than 20 degrees off axis?

But if plasma is playing a 24fps movie at 24fps.... it won't be smooth to my eyes.

Look at some reviews on TVs that you're looking at to see what the calibrated power usage is. I know that CNET does this, but I'm not sure of any others. Plasmas in general use more electricity, but it'll likely amount to something like $20/year rather than some exhorbitant amount.

Burn-in is a non issue for ~99% of the users out there. The affected users would be at places like airports that run CSPAN 24/7 with that ticker at the bottom of the screen.

What you heard about tilting is false. Most tilt mounts tilt the screen up or down 15 degrees, and plasmas do fine with that. They also make ceiling plasma mounts, which would put it at WAY more than 20 degrees off axis.

Film is 24fps. Playing it true to the source will result in the fewest artifacts and problems as possible. I've heard of a lot of problems with the motion interpolation, so be sure to look up info on the model you're looking at.

I'm not going to say there's something wrong with you choosing the TV that looks best to your eyes. However, for the sake of the other readers on here, playing the film true to source is the correct way to do it. Liking the motion interpolation more is much like when someone's had their TV on "torch" mode for years, which displays horrible black levels and incredibly innacurate colors, and then they have it calibrated and hate the true-to-source image that's displayed on their screen. Most of these people change the correct settings that they just paid several hundred dollars for so that their colors "pop" (i.e. are displayed blazingly bright, totally inaccurate, and cartoonish) like they did before. It's just something to think about.

Another thing to note is that the best-looking torch-mode TV in the super-bright big-box stores will most likely not be the best-looking TV in your darker home with the TV settings tweaked. Try to view some TVs in a darker setting like the Magnolia Theater at Best Buy. Also, get some settings off of CNET, avsforum, or some other review site and try to get a hold of the TV remote at the store and change the settings. At the very least change it from dynamic (i.e. "torch" mode) to movie. That will give you a better idea of which TV will look best in your home.

I will say that plasmas typically look dull next to LCDs in a bright store, because LCDs can get much brighter. However, you won't want it nearly that bright at home. If you keep a high brightness, then your blacks will be grays, and your contrast ratio will stink. My avsforum-calibrated plasma lights up the room but plays absolutely incredible blacks. I've never noticed any non-smooth picture. It extracts 24fps from BD and has a jaw-dropping picture.

I don't like to tell people what they should get. I like to provide people with as much info as possible though. That's how I like to be treated, so I'm just trying to practice the Golden Rule.

Good luck!
 

EvilYoda

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Apr 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: erwos
Originally posted by: s44
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
My brother has a second generation 120hz Samsung and does not use the 120hz feature do to the stuttering. I believe only Sony has implemented a proper 120hz system.
If you mean 5:5, I believe this is correct.
Kuros can do 3:3 to display 24hz material at the 72hz native refresh rate, too.

But, yes, I love my Sony A3000-series DLP with 120hz and 5:5. :)

Sony refused to and never made a DLP set - all of their recent non-LCD RPTVs were SXRD, which was their name for LCoS.

Sorry, just a pet peeve when people call them a DLP when it's a considerably different technology.

Fuzzy, you can get the Samsung LN46A650 for $1550 from Amazon right now with their awesome "white glove" delivery service. You also get $200 off of a Samsung Bluray player which makes it just about free ($203.xx).
 

vi edit

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RE: AMP on the Samsungs.

I do not like it for most movies. I'm not watching a movie anymore with it turned on. I'm watching the movie get filmed. It's almost overly real to the point where you can see the makeup and it completely loses that movie stylized grain/intended blur.

I'm a purist when it comes to that point. That's not what the director intended for it to look like.
 

kalrith

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Aug 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: vi edit
I'm a purist when it comes to that point. That's not what the director intended for it to look like.

I totally agree. However, many people would rather that movies look like a video game or cartoon than a film.
 

erwos

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Apr 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: EvilYoda
Sorry, just a pet peeve when people call them a DLP when it's a considerably different technology.
Except... they're not. The only real difference is that LCoS (aka, SXRD) uses liquid crystals instead of mirrors. That's a difference, but it's not like LCD vs plasma, or LCD vs DLP.

And I agree with everyone else that motion interpolation makes stuff look unnatural. I own a 120hz HDTV, so I do have first-hand experience with it. It's best for live events.
 

EvilYoda

Lifer
Apr 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: erwos
Originally posted by: EvilYoda
Sorry, just a pet peeve when people call them a DLP when it's a considerably different technology.
Except... they're not. The only real difference is that LCoS (aka, SXRD) uses liquid crystals instead of mirrors. That's a difference, but it's not like LCD vs plasma, or LCD vs DLP.

Still not really correct, but okay. LCoS still has plenty of mirrors, just not a micro-mirror array and one of the biggest differences from DLP RP sets is that it's a discrete 3-panel technology like LCD instead of a color wheel. But sure, it's "just about the same".
 

rdp6

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May 14, 2007
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I have last year's Samsung 5271 with 120 hz features. The xx71 series are twins to the xx69 series. Some experienced "stuttering" issues, I have never had them, other that playing 1080p/60 source material (Planet Earth on HD DVD) in 24 hz mode forced in the player. I have a dozen or so HD DVDs which are meant to be watched in 24 hz mode, which as far as the TV goes, means turn Auto Motion Plus (AMP) to "OFF". This makes the film "choppy" just like in the movie theaters. That said, I often watch the same movie with AMP off and with AMP set to maximum for the cool 3D effect. Normal HDTV viewing I leave AMP on high unless the artifacts get too crazy. Football looks incredible with AMP maxxed.

I have heard that this year's Samsung models have the AMP effects "turned down" but can be brought back to xx71/xx69 levels in the service menu.

As for artifacts / triple ball effect, yes, with AMP on there is TBE. And there are artifacts sometimes. I have not upgraded my (FW2001) firmware which is supposed to help with these issues (but AVSforumers say do not completely fix them) but I am happy with what I have so can't be bothered to upgrade.

OT: I bought my TV from amazon.com, they were substantially (far more than 5%) cheaper than anyone else at the time. Shop around.